The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 3

[kanzz]

RSBM. True, but that's not the point. If there was any chance of life, she was worth saving.Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

There was probably little chance of life with the subdural hemorrhage and subaracnoid hemorrhage. But that doesn't explain why they wouldn't have called 911. As lay people, they wouldn't have known she probably wasn't salvageable - which further bolsters the BDI theory.

Side note: As an RN, I would not agree that any chance of life is worth saving. Please don't save me only to live in a vegetative state or to spend the rest of my days on a ventilator. There is such a thing as a living organism, and then there is - living. Damn, I hope to live til I die.

 

[Ambitioned]

Side note: As an RN, I would not agree that any chance of life is worth saving. Please don't save me only to live in a vegetative state or to spend the rest of my days on a ventilator. There is such a thing as a living organism, and then there is - living. Damn, I hope to live til I die.

As an RN, my mom says the same thing. Terri Schiavo comes to mind. Her parents meant well but what quality of life was that for her? She was on feeding tube life support from 1990 to 2005. (Although I do think removal of the feeding tube was a little harsh) I know thousands of people are on feeding tubes. But, her autopsy stated, "Terri Schiavo suffered severe, irreversible brain damage that left that organ discolored and scarred, shriveled to half its normal size, and damaged in nearly all its regions, including the one responsible for vision."

 

[Karinna]

If JB was brain dead as Dr. Spitz seemed to think after such a traumatic head injury she would have been declared dead anyway and to put her on life support/ventilator would have only prolonged the inevitable in that case. IMO.

 

[Karinna]

There was probably little chance of life with the subdural hemorrhage and subaracnoid hemorrhage. But that doesn't explain why they wouldn't have called 911. As lay people, they wouldn't have known she probably wasn't salvageable - which further bolsters the BDI theory.

Side note: As an RN, I would not agree that any chance of life is worth saving. Please don't save me only to live in a vegetative state or to spend the rest of my days on a ventilator. There is such a thing as a living organism, and then there is - living. Damn, I hope to live til I die.

Yes they should definitely have called 911 if they found her unconscious and unresponsive. I don't think we will ever know what condition her parent/s found her in if that's what happened? But with that type of head injury i doubt she would have been doing much to where they thought she was okay.

 

[The Dark Shadow]

There was probably little chance of life with the subdural hemorrhage and subaracnoid hemorrhage. But that doesn't explain why they wouldn't have called 911. As lay people, they wouldn't have known she probably wasn't salvageable - which further bolsters the BDI theory.

Side note: As an RN, I would not agree that any chance of life is worth saving. Please don't save me only to live in a vegetative state or to spend the rest of my days on a ventilator. There is such a thing as a living organism, and then there is - living. Damn, I hope to live til I die.

Fair enough. I guess what I really mean is that it wasn't their decision to make.
We only know after the fact that she wouldn't have survived. They would have had no way of knowing the extent of her damage, so for all they knew, they may have been 'finishing off' somebody who may have made a complete recovery if medical assistance was rendered immediately, kwim?


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[kanzz]

Yes they should definitely have called 911 if they found her unconscious and unresponsive. I don't think we will ever know what condition her parent/s found her in if that's what happened? But with that type of head injury i doubt she would have been doing much to where they thought she was okay.

That would be assuming a parent found her before she was dead (strangled), of course; which is not what I think happened that night.

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[kanzz]

Fair enough. I guess what I really mean is that it wasn't their decision to make.
We only know after the fact that she wouldn't have survived. They would have had no way of knowing the extent of her damage, so for all they knew, they may have been 'finishing off' somebody who may have made a complete recovery if medical assistance was rendered immediately, kwim?


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Yes, I do know what you mean. But I still believe this only supports that BDI. i.e. That he also strangled her. Otherwise, I do think a parent would have called 911.

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[RL2]

Patsy also said she and John believed there were two people who know who did it -- the person who killed JonBenet and someone that person confided in.

Here's an interesting link concerning this:

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/printthread.php?t=6873&pp=12

my favorite on this link is John's statement "we called police and sat around for four hours, then I went down and found her in the basement." ---- that would mean he went down and found her at 11 AM, not 1 pm

 

[Heymom]

Definitely singular. Thanks BOESP



Thanks PL . I believe Linda Arndt was immediately suspicious (or, more like certain), so I just don't understand how she was so lax in supervising JR that day! It's crazy!



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Lt. Arndt was left entirely ALONE with the Ramseys after most of the squad left to discuss the case at headquarters. At that point the body had not been found. It's still rather unbelievable that 1) they hadn't found JonBenet's body and 2) they would leave ONE detective there on her own. But that is what happened.

 

[Heymom]

my favorite on this link is John's statement "we called police and sat around for four hours, then I went down and found her in the basement." ---- that would mean he went down and found her at 11 AM, not 1 pm

Actually since they called the police just before 6 am, that would mean 10 am for when he found her. Obviously he is rounding down on the time...

 

[fedfan4life]

That would be assuming a parent found her before she was dead (strangled), of course; which is not what I think happened that night.

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Exactly. I have come to that conclusion myself.

 

[The Dark Shadow]

Yes, I do know what you mean. But I still believe this only supports that BDI. i.e. That he also strangled her. Otherwise, I do think a parent would have called 911.

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Oooh yes sorry, now I see what you mean. I totally agree!


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[Scandigirl]

Yes, I do know what you mean. But I still believe this only supports that BDI. i.e. That he also strangled her. Otherwise, I do think a parent would have called 911.

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This might very well be true. A couple of things leap into my mind about whether Burke and the strangulation... Firstly, I think it was possibly Susan Stine who said she was troubled after overhearing Burke discussing with her son about whether his sister was manually strangled, in a very matter of fact, unemotional way.

Secondly, I remember reading Andrew Hodges book, "Who will speak for Jonbenet?", and seeing a reprint of one of Burke's drawings left in a church, of a pair of arms and hands in a strangling position. I don't know if anyone else saw, or was aware of this, but I think it might have been mentioned by someone else on another thread recently?

I've no idea, but to me such things suggest that Burke witnessed something, and that's at a very minimum....? Who knows?

All jmo, of course.

 

[ukrberserker23]

So much of the evidence is confusing. Supposedly, JBR was face down when strangled, based on the urine stains on front of her clothing. But she must have been flipped over immediately because the livor mortis was on her backside. Blood on pillow in bedroom. Basically 3 attack locations. Hope someone confesses someday.

 

[PositiveLight]

Lt. Arndt was left entirely ALONE with the Ramseys after most of the squad left to discuss the case at headquarters. At that point the body had not been found. It's still rather unbelievable that 1) they hadn't found JonBenet's body and 2) they would leave ONE detective there on her own. But that is what happened.

I think this is one of the main reasons JR doesn't speak well of Linda Arndt. Because she was the only person left. Between him and removing JBR's body from the house. Plus she saw through the pompous BS and immediately picked up on the weirdness of the situation. I feel sorry for her honestly. She was left alone with all those people to try and keep an eye on. It was an impossible task. More detectives should have remained at the house. I'm reminded of Linda Wilcox interview on a candy rose site. How she talks about how they treated the help. I imagine John treated LA the same way and I think she was being nice calling it cordial. I think he was probably more of an a$$hole to the detectives. Especially LA. He wanted them out of that house so he could do more damage control. That hour and a half John was missing he may have been upstairs in his bathroom making phone calls to lawyers and such. JMOO

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[EyesofTheSouth]

So much of the evidence is confusing. Supposedly, JBR was face down when strangled, based on the urine stains on front of her clothing. But she must have been flipped over immediately because the livor mortis was on her backside. Blood on pillow in bedroom. Basically 3 attack locations. Hope someone confesses someday.

Well, what if Burke hit JBR from behind as he was either following her or chasing her down to the basement? If she's hit from behind -- I believe the blow was to the top of the head, and doable from behind because he would've been significantly taller than her -- she would likely fall forward then, wouldn't she?

Reading the previous thread, I have seen other people say that they have witnessed someone wetting themselves when they have passed out. So, maybe that happened to JBR?

Let's say BR knocks her out in the basement. She's facedown on the carpet and wets herself. I believe I read too that there was some kind of mark on/near the front of her throat that suggests someone had pulled on her shirt from behind? So, she's laying facedown, passed out; pretty much dead weight. BR tries to move her by grabbing the back of her shirt and pulling, but because she's dead weight on the floor, he can't. So, he grabs the rope and ties it around her neck to better move her? Maybe he didn't even know or intend to use the rope to kill her?

 

[kanzz]

I think this is one of the main reasons JR doesn't speak well of Linda Arndt. Because she was the only person left. Between him and removing JBR's body from the house. Plus she saw through the pompous BS and immediately picked up on the weirdness of the situation. I feel sorry for her honestly. She was left alone with all those people to try and keep an eye on. It was an impossible task. More detectives should have remained at the house. I'm reminded of Linda Wilcox interview on a candy rose site. How she talks about how they treated the help. I imagine John treated LA the same way and I think she was being nice calling it cordial. I think he was probably more of an a$$hole to the detectives. Especially LA. He wanted them out of that house so he could do more damage control. That hour and a half John was missing he may have been upstairs in his bathroom making phone calls to lawyers and such. JMOO Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

In her deposition regarding her lawsuit, she made it pretty clear that she thought JDI. After reading it, part of me felt sympathy and part of me didn't understand why she dug in her heels with her theory. Even though she should never have been left alone in that crime scene, she should have done more to secure it. Allowing JR to run the house was a big mistake, imo, and she should have made it clear that everyone had to remain where she could have eyes on them at all times. Allowing the friends and victim advocates to clean things was reprehensible. She could have asked for back-up sooner. Sending the list of questions she did to the R's was plain silly. Then, years later, she befriended Patsy. She seemed to have an agenda, imo. Linda Arndt depo: http://www.acandyrose.com/03182000-arndtdepo-04102000.htm

 

[ukrberserker23]

From what I can tell on here, most believe she was cracked on the head in the kitchen. From the power of the blow, she probably went unconscious immediately. That would mean she was struck in the basement where the urine stained carpet was. I'm wondering if she was poked with something in the bedroom. Unless pillow was taken to basement, and returned later.Ramsey's got real dumb lucky.

 

[UKGuy]

From what I can tell on here, most believe she was cracked on the head in the kitchen. From the power of the blow, she probably went unconscious immediately. That would mean she was struck in the basement where the urine stained carpet was. I'm wondering if she was poked with something in the bedroom. Unless pillow was taken to basement, and returned later.Ramsey's got real dumb lucky.

ukrberserker23,
If the kitchen why is there so much incriminating stuff left lying about? The R's want everyone to believe it all happened down in the basement, so why leave the pineapple snack, flashlight, etc on full view, why not deposit them in the basement?

If the case was JDI or PDI then the primary crime-scene might be anywhere. Assuming it's BDI, and we know, from Patsy herself, that JonBenet regularly slept in BR's bedroom, add in playing doctor, and I reckon we have a motive and a location, i.e. BR's bedroom?

What I've tried to do is generate a minimal, or occam style BDI, without the bells and whistles, e.g. flashlight as blunt force, or ligature as prior restraint, etc.

I definitely think the use of the paintbrush partitions the house into two separate crime-scenes, the other with train tracks is less certain, since alike the blunt force head blow, something else might account for those marks.

.

 

[UKGuy]

Well, what if Burke hit JBR from behind as he was either following her or chasing her down to the basement? If she's hit from behind -- I believe the blow was to the top of the head, and doable from behind because he would've been significantly taller than her -- she would likely fall forward then, wouldn't she?

Reading the previous thread, I have seen other people say that they have witnessed someone wetting themselves when they have passed out. So, maybe that happened to JBR?

Let's say BR knocks her out in the basement. She's facedown on the carpet and wets herself. I believe I read too that there was some kind of mark on/near the front of her throat that suggests someone had pulled on her shirt from behind? So, she's laying facedown, passed out; pretty much dead weight. BR tries to move her by grabbing the back of her shirt and pulling, but because she's dead weight on the floor, he can't. So, he grabs the rope and ties it around her neck to better move her? Maybe he didn't even know or intend to use the rope to kill her?

EyesofTheSouth,
What if it was one of the parents that whacked JonBenet, as part of the intended staging, and when it appeared to fail asphyxiated her?

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