The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 3

[UKGuy]

Kolar was so intent on having Burke mover her into the basement that on one of Tricia's radio programs he suggested that Burke could have slid her down the stairs using the blanket. I don't know what to make of that.

Why do folks think her arms were stretched out above her head?

johnjay,
Just speculating here: because she was tied by her hands to BR's bed?

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[Heymom]

Kolar was so intent on having Burke mover her into the basement that on one of Tricia's radio programs he suggested that Burke could have slid her down the stairs using the blanket. I don't know what to make of that.

Why do folks think her arms were stretched out above her head?

Because of that drawing done...Was in the National Enquirer magazine? Her hands were up in front of her face, from the autopsy photos. Maybe JR said her arms were above her head too? Can't remember if Arndt stated that they were. But from the autopsy photos, her elbows were bent at a 45 degree angle and her forearms were parallel to her body. Not the same thing at all. However, some of that could have been contraction after she died.

p.s. They put a heart on her hand...the reality looks like graffiti of a penis to me. What boys are likely to draw.

 

[Heymom]

Also, because we cannot have access to the case files, we will go in circles about what actually happened, forever I suppose. Unless someone confesses and explains what really happened, none of us will ever have complete satisfaction about what took place that night. My simple mind just keeps returning to the basics. I think JonBenet was still conscious when she and Burke went to the basement. Either he went first, and she caught him looking at his birthday presents and maybe threatened to rat him out to Mom, or he lured her down there, "took her quietly." And then the event happened, she was struck on the head from behind, and released urine on the carpet outside the wine cellar, where the paint tote happened to be, and where the train tracks were steps away. I think it all happened right there, and there was no need to carry JonBenet anywhere. I'm not sure if BR put her in the wine cellar, when all was finished, or if JR & PR did that to hide her from the police temporarily.

But I can live with not knowing every last detail. I am 99.999999% sure who killed her and what happened after that, and I still want justice for JonBenet.

 

[UKGuy]

Also, because we cannot have access to the case files, we will go in circles about what actually happened, forever I suppose. Unless someone confesses and explains what really happened, none of us will ever have complete satisfaction about what took place that night. My simple mind just keeps returning to the basics. I think JonBenet was still conscious when she and Burke went to the basement. Either he went first, and she caught him looking at his birthday presents and maybe threatened to rat him out to Mom, or he lured her down there, "took her quietly." And then the event happened, she was struck on the head from behind, and released urine on the carpet outside the wine cellar, where the paint tote happened to be, and where the train tracks were steps away. I think it all happened right there, and there was no need to carry JonBenet anywhere. I'm not sure if BR put her in the wine cellar, when all was finished, or if JR & PR did that to hide her from the police temporarily.

But I can live with not knowing every last detail. I am 99.999999% sure who killed her and what happened after that, and I still want justice for JonBenet.

Heymom,
BR does not need to lure BR down to the basement, a place she hated. He just needs to ask my bedroom or yours? Its that simple, lets get this pineapple out of the way then we can do whatever?

None of the partially opened gifts were found upstairs. So no motive there. Again consider the paint tote, left at the bottom of the stairs, i.e. nothing to do with upstairs.

What appears to have happened and is truly shocking is that Patsy ligature asphyxiated her own daughter, its the one reason I thought the case was PDI. Having read over the True Bill charges I now think its BDI all the way.

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[wildebeest]

Definitely singular. Thanks BOESP



Thanks PL . I believe Linda Arndt was immediately suspicious (or, more like certain), so I just don't understand how she was so lax in supervising JR that day! It's crazy!



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Linda Arnt picked up on something, that morning when she arrived at the Ramsey home. Whether it was vibrations from John, body language, or something else, she was fearful, and kept thinking about the number of bullets she had in her gun. Why was she so afraid? Maybe it was the realization she was in the murderer's presence?

IMHO

 

[PositiveLight]

Linda Arnt picked up on something, that morning when she arrived at the Ramsey home. Whether it was vibrations from John, body language, or something else, she was fearful, and kept thinking about the number of bullets she had in her gun. Why was she so afraid? Maybe it was the realization she was in the murderer's presence?

IMHO

I agree with you. We all have a gut instinct and if we follow it, we are rarely steered wrong. If you ignore it and don't heed to your body's warnings, it tends to get out of balance. I think imho that Linda Arndt was sensing things that whole day from the moment she arrived. IIRC she was requesting help before the body was found but they were all too busy and short staffed to send extra man power. I'd be counting my bullets too. If this had been any other family or home it could have turned into a total nightmare. It would have been easily a hostage situation if they felt cornered. Reminds me of that man who had his whole family hostage and ended up killing a lot of them. I forget the guys name off the top of my head but he had like a cult family.

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[johnjay]

Because of that drawing done...Was in the National Enquirer magazine? Her hands were up in front of her face, from the autopsy photos. Maybe JR said her arms were above her head too? Can't remember if Arndt stated that they were. But from the autopsy photos, her elbows were bent at a 45 degree angle and her forearms were parallel to her body. Not the same thing at all. However, some of that could have been contraction after she died.

p.s. They put a heart on her hand...the reality looks like graffiti of a penis to me. What boys are likely to draw.

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I meant to ask, how do folks here think her hands ended up in the position they were in when John brought her upstairs?

 

[PositiveLight]

Found it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Wesson

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[PositiveLight]

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I meant to ask, how do folks here think her hands ended up in the position they were in when John brought her upstairs?

She was in full rigor when he brought her upstairs IIRC. So when she died and was finally left alone, if her hands were above her head they stayed there. they may have drawn a little due to muscle contraction too.

 

[The Dark Shadow]

And I feel the opposite, how could I ask someone else to commit murder? No matter how grave the injury, a human being is NOT a "vegetable," and human life is valuable no matter what. I worked with kids who had severe brain trauma, and I suppose some people would have termed them not worth saving. They were individuals deserving of dignity and life...they could be funny, stubborn, mischievous, sweet, naughty, etc. just like any other kid. They just couldn't talk and walk and some couldn't eat except through a tube. They went to school, came home, ate snacks, watched TV, ate dinner, and went to bed just like any other kids. We took them to the park and on other field trips.

If we protected life more carefully, a lot that is wrong in the world would be righted. IMO.

YES, thank you, Heymom - beautifully said and I agree 110%. Hugs to you and the precious kids you worked with


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[johnjay]

She was in full rigor when he brought her upstairs IIRC. So when she died and was finally left alone, if her hands were above her head they stayed there. they may have drawn a little due to muscle contraction too.

I get that part but it seems like an odd position to fall and die in.

 

[Scandigirl]

M

Scandigirl,
When the TV companies decide to run a Ramsey documentary or any other crime themed series, they want a gripping, dramatic narrative, something to sell ads against.

So the participating detectives have to come up with the theories and I reckon they mostly fit the evidence to their theories, not always, but most of the time.

So in the CBS case we have Spitz and Kolar contributing aspects of their respective theories, so to pad out the narrative, i.e. JonBenet steals a piece of pineapple. Instead of theorizing did JonBenet have her own bowl of pineapple, which she ate, then wanted to go upstairs?

JonBenet could have been situated at four crime scenes the night she was killed, i.e. BR's bedroom, her own bedroom, the kitchen, and the basement.

So it could all have taken place in BR's bedroom, then he moved her to her own bedroom, did some minimal staging. Think about this everyone, could BR have done enough staging so that his parents were never sure what took place?

JonBenet was moved down to the kitchen area, this is possibly the interlude between the head blow and the asphyxiation, the pillow might have been used to comfort JonBenet, then she was moved down to the basement where the final staging took place.

If BR is going to intentionally assault JonBenet it will not be in a semi-public area like the breakfast bar. It will be in a location he has confidence in, i.e. his own bedroom, a location JonBenet willingly visits at night.

.

Thanks for everyone's very interesting responses and ideas! All we can really do at this stage is speculate the most likely theories based on what we can know, as Heymom has said. If we ever do get to find out much more of the details any time in the fufure, it will be fascinating to see how many things we got right- or not!

UK Guy, your post above is very interesting. It seems logical to break it down into 4 distinct crime scene areas, and also distinct stages in both the attack/killing and the staging. It would be surprising (at least to me), if Burke actually did most things involved, beyond the initial head blow, and left a scene where it was very difficult for his parents to even know what happened, or to be able to even disguise it very effectively.

This makes me think of one of Patsy's interviews (sorry this is very vague), where she is being questioned about Burke possibly being responsible. She first of all said, in so many words, that it couldn't be her child who would do it. When pressed further, and asked if it could even have been an accident, she hesitated and said: "I... I don't know", or words to that effect, indicating for a moment that she really might not have been sure what happened, either way. Does anyone know which interview this was?

I wonder if Patsy did a lot of the staging down in the basement (that's assuming there was all that much staging to do), because she was probably the first one out of her and John to discover the scene? She was most likely the one who was still fully dressed and up and about, finishing packing?

UK Guy, your thoughts that Burke would be more likely to assault JB in a private space like a bedroom makes sense. If he was openly and innocently eating pineapple, even with JB, downstairs in the kitchen, in a normal way, before the head bash happened, then why would he be sneaking around with a flashlight, and not simply switching the main kitchen light on? Unless he was scared of being told off for being up in the night, or something? I think the neighbours said they saw "strange, moving lights" in the kitchen, but not the main lights on at any point?

I still can't see Burke being able to move JB down any flights of stairs, though, even from a bedroom to the kitchen, if she was already knocked out at that point?

Finally, my apologies to ask a question again, about the GJ indictment... I was listening to another one of Jim Clemente's podcasts (about another case, as it happens), and he was explaining what normally constitutes a charge of Murder in the First Degree. He said that usually means premeditation and some level of pre planning, and/or excessive violence. Is that what the GJ think happened with Burke (ie very much not simply an accident)? I'm still confused on this, so any explanation would be really helpful!

My confusion partly stems from trying to understand what many of the various experts really think, as like you say, they may have played it safe or only inserted parts of their theories on the CBS show, or they may disagree amongst each other. Perhaps, again, it's all too many details, and the main thing is to simply know who was responsible over all, in broad terms.

 

[kanzz]

I get that part but it seems like an odd position to fall and die in.

--referencing this

She was in full rigor when he brought her upstairs IIRC. So when she died and was finally left alone, if her hands were above her head they stayed there. they may have drawn a little due to muscle contraction too.[/I]

It wouldn't need to mean that she fell and died in that position as rigor doesn't set in that quickly. So, she probably fell secondary to the head wound; and then was strangled and died; and then the staging; and then the placement of the body in its final position; and the undoing. Then the rigor set in -- starting 2 - 3 hours after death. Prior to that, the body would have been flaccid (loose, limp).

 

[johnjay]

--referencing this

It wouldn't need to mean that she fell and died in that position as rigor doesn't set in that quickly. So, she probably fell secondary to the head wound; and then was strangled and died; and then the staging; and then the placement of the body in its final position; and the undoing. Then the rigor set in -- starting 2 - 3 hours after death. Prior to that, the body would have been flaccid (loose, limp).

You're thinking the parents put her in that position? Oh my - why would they do that?

 

[kanzz]

You're thinking the parents put her in that position? Oh my - why would they do that?

Well, yes. In my theory, the cord on the wrists and the duct tape are part of the staging; and the papoosing, placement, and favorite nightie are part of the undoing; possibly all done by only one parent, PR. Why? To cover up and to build the IDI story.

 

[PositiveLight]

--referencing this

It wouldn't need to mean that she fell and died in that position as rigor doesn't set in that quickly. So, she probably fell secondary to the head wound; and then was strangled and died; and then the staging; and then the placement of the body in its final position; and the undoing. Then the rigor set in -- starting 2 - 3 hours after death. Prior to that, the body would have been flaccid (loose, limp).

Yup that is what I was referring to also. After the staging was done and she was left alone, she remained in that position until JR "found" her.

 

[PositiveLight]

I have a question. IF (this is only speculation) BR did do the sexual aspect, the head wound and some sort of manual strangulation but wasn't strong enough to completely finish the job.... mom and dad find her.... thinking she was dead begin staging after the fact not knowing she was actually still alive but barely....and John applied the ligature outside of the wine cellar which resulted in her death, could he not be charged with first degree murder? Because there was intent by finding and knowingly applying the ligature to JonBenet. He didn't accidently wrap the ligature around her neck and accidently pull it so hard it was barely visiable buried in her neck. That wouldn't be an accident. In my opinion that would be first degree murder. Because they didn't report the crime either and set forth in covering it up and still cover it up. IF this is the case, couldn't John be charged with first degree murder? There's no statute of limitations on that! I think they need to rework this case and follow the evidence again with new fresh eyes formally. This is all my opinion of course but this possibly could lead to an actual criminal trial. There possibly could be justice after all. Just a thought.

 

[dogperson]

If a person is killed as the result of a crime being perpetrated on them, that's First Degree Murder too isn't it? So even if JBRs killer didn't INTEND to kill, if she died because she was being abused or sexually assaulted, that would still make it First Degree I think, even if the death wasn't premeditated beforehand.

 

[PositiveLight]

If a person is killed as the result of a crime being perpetrated on them, that's First Degree Murder too isn't it? So even if JBRs killer didn't INTEND to kill, if she died because she was being abused or sexually assaulted, that would still make it First Degree I think, even if the death wasn't premeditated beforehand.

That's what I think too.

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[TeaTime]

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I meant to ask, how do folks here think her hands ended up in the position they were in when John brought her upstairs?

It seems obvious to me that she was dragged by her arms, most likely her wrists, into the WC and left.

They were in the WC, BR was opening gifts to peak inside, JBR said "I'm telling" and started to leave, BR yanked her by her shirt collar, her shoulder brushed against the wall, he smacked her over the head with the flashlight and then pushed her away from himself, she collapsed unconscious, her bladder released and then he dragged her back into the WC by her wrists.

The basement was cold, he calmed down after a while, he could tell she was still breathing and he felt some remorse (or fear of being punished for what he had done) so he fetched her a blanket and a clean nightie. He poked her a few times because she just wouldn't wake up and then covered her and left her behind the latched door. PR heard something and went to check on the kids, discovered JBR not in her bed and BR told her of the 'accident'.

The hysterical staging began with shoelaces and tape from PR's jacket. Then the RN was written as PR willed herself to remain steady in crisis.

The rest is history.

MHO