The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18

[Petal]

But of course it could have been something else that actually set Burke off. We'll probably never know what it was.

There was the business of the presents in the basement.They were wrapped in the same Christmas paper as those given to the children on Christmas morning but Patsy had decided to hold some back for BR's birthday the next month. Others said it was Burke who ripped the tops open to see what was inside. PR said she had done it. That may have caused Burke to be feeling resentful towards JBR, especially if he thought she had been given more.

 

[RL2]

The garrotte was over the top, just as the RN was. Wow, I didn't know that about the fiber being PR's.

And, who was the "over the top" person in that house??? PR, of course.

 

[ThinkHard]

I think that is more likely to be a full meal that would take all that time to clear the stomach. A piece or two of pineapple would move along much faster, and I've read that pineapple contains some enzyme that means it digests more quickly than other foods. My guess is she ate it about 1 hour before she was killed.

Still if she ate it 1 hour before being killed then it doesn't seem to me like she would have been killed over the pineapple.

 

[kaykay543]

Animal hairs? I don't remember seeing that mentioned on any of the recent shows...are there any references about that here? Tia.

In the books I read they always thought the badger hairs were either from a pair of PR badger shoes or a coat. But PR would never turn in the items they asked for.

 

[johnjay]

There was the business of the presents in the basement.They were wrapped in the same Christmas paper as those given to the children on Christmas morning but Patsy had decided to hold some back for BR's birthday the next month. Others said it was Burke who ripped the tops open to see what was inside. PR said she had done it. That may have caused Burke to be feeling resentful towards JBR, especially if he thought she had been given more.

Yes, that seems like an important clue to what happened.

 

[HarmonyE.]

Still if she ate it 1 hour before being killed then it doesn't seem to me like she would have been killed over the pineapple.

The medical experts say she died from strangulation 45 minutes to 2 hours after the head blow. The CBS experts opined that a dispute with Burke resulted in the head blow and the later garroting was staging. Patsy denied serving any pineapple that day or night. Burke claims to have been asleep through everything. But his fingerprints were on the bowl and glass of tea next to it and he had a visceral reaction to the photo of the pineapple in 1998.

 

[apabld]

The second part of The Case Of was the most viewed show of the day in Australia. Again, I'm very surprised at the interest in the show considering the minimal media coverage it was given 20 years ago.

 

[Hatfield]

Hi guys!
I am pretty new to this case, having been aware of it for years, but never really digging too deep. I read the note years ago, did a small bit of reading, and that was it. My knowledge is limited.

There was something BR said during the Dr. Phil show that really bugged me, and to hear similar phrasing from JR on the CBS show last night stuck out like a sore thumb. I went back and found the bit from BR, and a couple more things jumped out... taken from Tadpole12's post # 78 on the Dr. Phil thread:

DP EP 3
@ 34
I think your dad had said he used
the flashlight that night to put you to bed
Then you snuck downstairs to play
BR: Ya I had some toy that I wanted to put together
I remember being downstairs after everybody
was kind of in bed and wanting to get this thing out
DP: Did you use the flashlight so you
wouldn't be seen?
BR: I don't remember -
I just remember
being downstairs, I remember this toy
**********************************************
DP: Did you hit your sister over
the head with a baseball bat or flash light?
BR: Absolutely not
DP: If someone in your house did,
do you think you
would have heard it?
BR: probably... ya (bites lip?)

The thing that bothered me initially was BR's distancing himself from the identity of the toy he snuck downstairs to assemble. 'Some toy', 'this thing', 'this toy'. I know that sounds a bit silly, as it has been so long, but for goodness sake, this was the night your sister was murdered, I'd think details would be etched into your mind forever. I would expect something like 'I got this new Lego set, and I couldn't wait to play with it'.

And then last night, JR says that he stayed up to help BR put together a plastic toy he had gotten for Christmas.

Again. A toy. Now a plastic toy, but still.

I found that very odd.

But THEN! Keeping JR's statement in mind.... how did it actually go? Did JR stay up to help him assemble, or did BR sneak down? With all the coaching they had to have had...why would BR say he snuck down now?

(I know it's likely he received more than one gift that required assembly)

What I am wondering is if a) there either was no toy requiring assembly, or it was the kind of toy that could have been used for nefarious purposes, has been disposed of, and thus has no identity, and b) if BR and JR are now trying to intentionally muddy already very murky waters.

Good catch.

I agree that BR should remember the type of toy he "snuck" downstairs to play with. Its too unusual that both BR + JR dont remember the toy but they both remember it very well about having to be downstairs alone.
Hmmmmmm

Makes me wonder if JR was the one that found BR had hit his sister over the head. Maybe JR was the brains of the operation afterall. BR says:

"I remember being downstairs after everybody
was kind of in bed and wanting to get this thing out"

"Thing" ? Nada He would know what it was that was so important to go downstairs alone for.

This reminded me of another thing JR said that struck me as strange. In one of the interviews with JR he purposely called it a "ransom note". PR also referred to it as a "ransom note" on the 911 phone right away.

This is important because up until PR found it all it was was a threatening letter to them about someone kidnapping their daughter. In the heat of the moment there is no way I would have called it a "ransom note". I would have just called it a letter that is threatening me about my daughter.

I think they both watched too many movies and that is what made them come up with this crazy plan. Ransom note......hogwash. They were so high society and out of touch with normal life that other people have that they lived in a fantasy world. A world where "ransom notes" are possible. 3 pages no less.

 

[leelee114]

Explain to my why John Ramsey, to this day, would be covering for Patsy Ramsey. They very clearly did not respect one another. I have yet to be provided a response to that request that makes any practical sense whatsoever.

This isn't the theory I have (I'm BDI)but I've always thought Patsy could have gotten John's compliance pretty easily. Angry Patsy was ruthless. If he tried to take her down she'd drag him with her. Hell hath no fury like Patsy Ramsey scorned.
If it was known there would be evidence of someone sexually abusing JB then Patsy could have used that to put him in an impossible situation where she e would point the finger at him knowing that his only real defense would be to turn in his own son.

Given her flair for dramatics she would have probably given a Jodi Arias level performance in court when she got on the stand and explained she caught her husband about to molest her daughter, went to hit him but struck poor JB instead.

 

[Hatfield]

Still if she ate it 1 hour before being killed then it doesn't seem to me like she would have been killed over the pineapple.

I think its possible some digestion occurred after her actual death which could mean that she was killed much closer to when she ate the pineapple.

The article I found before said that bacteria in the stomach can keep on digesting even after death and gasses in the body build up and can move things along even after death.

So I think the timing could have been much closer than the digestion made it appear. JMO

 

[RL2]

This isn't the theory I have (I'm BDI)but I've always thought Patsy could have gotten John's compliance pretty easily. Angry Patsy was ruthless. If he tried to take her down she'd drag him with her. Hell hath no fury like Patsy Ramsey scorned.
If it was known there would be evidence of someone sexually abusing JB then Patsy could have used that to put him in an impossible situation where she e would point the finger at him knowing that his only real defense would be to turn in his own son.

Given her flair for dramatics she would have probably given a Jodi Arias level performance in court when she got on the stand and explained she caught her husband about to molest her daughter, went to hit him but struck poor JB instead.

I agree 100%

 

[Lamima]

They said, on the show, that the head wound would have made her brain dead but her heart would have still been beating for some time before the garrote was used. So I assume the pineapple would continue digesting with the heart beating.

 

[MorkFromOrk]

oh yes. He refused to identify what was in the bowl. His body language was choice -- looked like he wanted to launch himself off that chair and out of that room STAT.

Yes, Yes, and yes. That moment was intense and telling. I was struck by what everyone has said and also two things. One is that he was able to connect the things he said earlier about eating pineapple and that photo! So he is not that cognitively impaired. and two, he looked at that photo and he visibly remembered that very bowl and that Christmas night. The fatal fight. Maybe it's my own PTSD but I just saw a lot of things going through his mind and his body language. He actually was then able to self edit his statements that followed to some degree. Another sign of his intelligence and not cognitive disability. Duping delight and that scary uneasy smile.

A few other revelations for me.
JR out of pocket for one hour! Where was he?

I'm also of the belief that we can put the paint brush (excluding the garrot)and sexual abuse that night off the table. She was in various dirty high traffic areas and probably many times before they called 911.
I m thinking more of the Drs contacts were more about BR. And that if he has " scatalogical" problems and was putting poop on her food /bed / etc I bet she had bacterial infections. Ewww

I look at PRs tapes statements and body language now completely differently.
I do think she felt so guilty that she wasn't able to keep her baby ( who she loved with the whole of her heart) ( ouch BR) close enough to her every minute to protect her from her sociopathic physically and emotionally abusive older brother. People have take responsibility more and get their kids treatment. ( are we positive BR was 9?)

I think that little JBR suffered brain death after being hit by that mag lite - maybe she grabbed that first. and the garrot was applied after to look like asphyxiation maybe swelling contributed to staging bruising completely.
Did PR and jR think that LE find JonBenet before she actually died?

The marks from poking her with the tracks to get a response is chilling. That just freaked me out. Just like when BR saw that photo of the pineapple.

Those are my major heavy duty new revelations from the CBS show "The case of JBR" Besides being grateful to the documentary and grand jurist and LE who came forward with @A forieign Faction@
Just MOO
Please be kind
MFromO

 

[WhoKnowsWhat]

W
K
W
how did I miss that?
a WS radio interview or ?

If I recall correctly it was a WS radio interview. Does Tricia keep them somewhere where it would be available?

 

[WhoKnowsWhat]

Total ludicrous. I could believe that she'd wear the same clothes twice before I would believe that she would ever throw their stuff into a plastic bag for a trip.

Remember all the clothes on John Andrew's bag that looked like they were sprawled out to be sorted and packed? What were those clothes for? The cruise? Or packing that got interrupted by whatever went down that night?

I believe weight on a small plane is very critical and plastic bags are used instead of luggage which would add weight. I have a friend who flies a small plane and he cautions to never lie about your weight when you're going on a plane.

 

[leelee114]

There is no blood, and if it happened not long before finding her, how would they know she was dead? If the theory was that JB was strangled because it was thought she was still alive, then Patsy found her and thought she was still alive - would surely have called 911.

Why is the intruder story unlikely?

Burke is a violent psychopath according to some. So, what is his criminal record? Where are the former friends, classmates, victims, and neighbors telling us about this? He is 30 now. You can't hide that.

There was blood which had been wiped off of JBs thighs.

For the millionth time an intruder didn't slip in a tiny window miraculously managing not to disturb the large spider web, an intruder didn't lurk in that house unnoticed while Patsy tried to get ready for the trip, an intruder didn't lure JB downstairs, an intruder did not find a random notepad and write a practice ransom note, an intruder did not write the longest ransom note the American criminal justice system has ever seen, an intruder did not fix JB a snack, an intruder didn't lure her to the basement, an intruder didn't crush her skull,choke and violate her. And an intruder most certainly did not take the time to find new oversized underwear for JonBenet. Seriously what random criminal would get rid of the original pair and take the time and effort to find a new pair? After all that effort an intruder wouldn't leave JonBenét behind if he was really trying to be so careful about covering his track. And on a sarcastic note that intruder must be pretty lucky. It was so nice of John and Patsy to consistently lie and tell stories which protected "him" in the long run.

And what in the world is up with this new notion that since Burke hasn't gone on a killing spree yet then we are off in finding him to display sociopathic and potentially psychopathic traits. Sociopathy is far more common than people realize and most sociopaths aren't mass murderers. It isn't as simple as ,"Oh well he seems functional and went to college so nothing to see here folks. "

For the most part Dennis Rader seemed normal enough until the world learned he was BTK. Most people who knew Ted Bundy had no clue they were in the presence of a violent sadistic serial killer until he was caught. Laci Peterson didn't see Scott coming did she?And the world is full of people who functioned perfectly fine before and after committing murder. Just look at that waste of oxygen known as Karla Homolka. I'm pretty sure no one thought someone like her would assist in the violent rape and murder of her own sister; but not only did she do just that but thanks to her plea deal she now leads a very normal life with a family of her own. Lizzie Borden got on with her life. Casey Anthony isn't in jail again. If you want a child killer comparison look no further than Mary Bell. She strangled two children to death for funsies when she was only 11 and has no run ins with the law since her 12 year sentence.

The real monsters of this world don't walk around drooling,covered in excrement with a cardboard sign proclaiming their violent nature. No the real monsters are the ones who know how to hide who they are. They can be your annoying but seemingly normal neighbor, they can be an expectant father with a wife who has no clue she will never get to hold her unborn son because her husband is plotting her death,they can disguise themselves as a mother or as a brother. These people wear masks and those who get a peak of what is underneath usually don't survive to tell the tale leaving the monster free to continue as it pleases.

It is so sad to think that JonBenét was probably at the age where she would start to fear the proverbial monster lurking in her basement totally unaware that it didn't need to hide in the dark basement behind boxes because it had been hiding in plain sight all along ....in the form of someone she loved and trusted.

 

[periwinkleblue]

There was the business of the presents in the basement.They were wrapped in the same Christmas paper as those given to the children on Christmas morning but Patsy had decided to hold some back for BR's birthday the next month. Others said it was Burke who ripped the tops open to see what was inside. PR said she had done it. That may have caused Burke to be feeling resentful towards JBR, especially if he thought she had been given more.

I am thinking the pineapple may have been a small part of what set Burke off. Hard to believe that PR ripped open the presents! More likely, BR lured JBR to the basement telling her that he was going to see the "other" presents and what 6 year old could resist getting more presents. I think BR was totally in control of what ever happened and had decided that JBR needed to be taught a lesson of what happens when she makes BR angry. He was playing some sort of sick "game" with her and when she didn't want to cooperate anymore, he hit her. Maybe not meaning to kill, but his anger just taking over and not able to think of the consequences. I happen to believe that the garrote or toggle rope was done by BR.

 

[waltzingmatilda]

According to TODAY show this am, BR's atty Lin Wood wil sue CBS for defamation. "No fair-minded person can condone this false and heinous television attack by CBS on a young man for ratings and profits." Lin Wood

CBS states it stands by the broadcast and will do so in court.

Today report states Burke was exonerated in 1999. Was he actually exonerated?

IMO, the CBS program was the only one which was objective. Renouned experts used the available evidence, scientific advances which weren't available at the time, and even built the Ramsey home to scale on stage for reenactments to form a viable theory. I am amazed at the number of friends who still refuse to speak about JOnBenet's murder. (Fleet White) But glad there are a few with enough guts to speak out and give an opinion based on behaviors they witnessed. A little girl died. What an injustice for JonBenet that nobody in her family has cooperated or seemed interested in solving her murder all these years. Thank goodness for advances in technology and social media nowadays so maybe some day this case will be solved. In the meantime LW needs some billable hrs to buy some more custom tailored suits and have more 'work' done on his face. My opinion.

 

[InstantProof]

And speculating that JBR grabbed a piece of BR's pineapple resulting in a rage attack seemed pretty silly to me. (Now had she grabbed his brand new Nintendo while he was in the middle of a game, maybe...but it would still be total speculation.[/FONT])[/FONT]

I see a lot of comments similar to this. When I was a teen I had younger brothers about the age of the kids here and they fought about anything. Even if one was looking at the other. It could have been over Nintendo or it could have been over a crumb on the floor.

 

[garthmax]

Thanks for the link.

I actually agree with the article. It seems objective. Their (Clemente, et al) assumptions aren't infallible. But especially this quote regarding BR: "To unleash a witch hunt on him now without rock solid proof of guilt is a cruel ratings ploy."

I wish instead that they could have convinced the BPD/DA to do some of the forensic testing they suggested.

And speculating that JBR grabbed a piece of BR's pineapple resulting in a rage attack seemed pretty silly to me. (Now had she grabbed his brand new Nintendo while he was in the middle of a game, maybe...but it would still be total speculation.)

Substitute "nintendo" for "train"....