The complicity of Patsy in coverup.

[Let_Forever_Be]

I just read something which I had not come across before. It said that cord fibres were found in JonBenet's bed. Does anyone have good links which cover this?

I found this interesting because I feel it deeply weakens the theory that Patsy lashed out at JonBenet in the 2nd floor bathroom after she wet the bed.

It does lend some credence to my belief of a "sex-game gone wrong". It may even imply the sex-game was done in the bedroom and her body was then moved to the basement.

 

[MurriFlower]

I just read something which I had not come across before. It said that cord fibres were found in JonBenet's bed. Does anyone have good links which cover this?

I found this interesting because I feel it deeply weakens the theory that Patsy lashed out at JonBenet in the 2nd floor bathroom after she wet the bed.

It does lend some credence to my belief of a "sex-game gone wrong". It may even imply the sex-game was done in the bedroom and her body was then moved to the basement.

It's mentioned on ACR although I'm not sure if it's cord fibers or rope fibers or fibers from the paper bag the rope was kept in. It depends on who is reporting it.

 

[claudicici]

Are you sure it was JonBenet's bed? I thought it was JAR's bed?

 

[UKGuy]

Murri's just grumpy cos we're losing in the cricket.

And the reality is, Murri clearly feels strongly about the position she/he's reached (sorry, i haven't paid attention to your gender) and as a result is keen to weed out every bit of information presented....completely understandable.

And the further reality is, you WANT your views to be scrutinized, it helps in refining your theory.

I wouldn't take anything personally here, after all, a bit of grumpy forum talk is nothing compared to what happened to JBR.

wonderllama,

Well said! :dance:

cricket , what do insects have to do with JonBenet's death?


.

 

[Let_Forever_Be]

It's mentioned on ACR although I'm not sure if it's cord fibers or rope fibers or fibers from the paper bag the rope was kept in. It depends on who is reporting it.

I read cord fibres. I know everything doesn't ring true in this case but if cord fibres were in JonBenet's bed it certainly adds another dimension to the case.

Of course, it is then working out how they got there -- innocently or due to the crime.

 

[Let_Forever_Be]

Are you sure it was JonBenet's bed? I thought it was JAR's bed?

I read JonBenet's bed. However, that could be a mistake. If anyone could clarify that would be great.

It just kind of struck me as odd if it were true.

 

[DeeDee249]

OK- I will explain AGAIN about the fibers found in JB's bed. There were NO cord fibers found in JB's bed

There were hemp rope fibers found in her bed.

There was a hemp rope found in JAR's bedroom, which is next to JB's room. Patsy at one point had decorated a tree in every bedroom (for the Colorado Christmas house tour). On JAR's tree, which had a "Western/Cowboy" theme, hemp rope was used as garland, and the ornaments were tiny cowboy boots, saddles, etc.
JB is seen with an identical hemp rope in a photo, wearing "country" clothes (jeans and pigtails) with the rope lying next to her.
Patsy has said in her interviews that BR often played with rope, and Patsy's exact words are that BR was "always trying to make a boat or something", that he was always dragging a rope around.
If the hemp rope was in a nearby bedroom, AND if BR (whose bedroom was on that same floor) the hemp rope fibers would be on the floor/carpets and would very naturally have been transferred to her bed (or BR's too, his was not tested) on FEET as they climb into bed.
There is NO indication that the presence of these ROPE (not cord) fibers indicated she was tied in ANY way (there were NO rope marks anywhere on her body, and there were marks from the cord ONLY on her neck) or that the rope played ANY part at all in the crime or the events of that night. It was taken into evidence simply because it was there, and it wasn't found in a paper bag, rather it was placed in a brown paper evidence bag by LE.

 

[BBB167893]

Thanks for the reply.

I disagree however with a number of observations.

1.The EA device need not break the hyoid bone. Indeed, death can occur when the cartoid arteries are sufficiently oppressed.

Right.

2. The ligature need not pull out JonBenet's hair -- the fact it didn't yet she died is testament to the fact that the EA device killed her in such circumstances without pulling her hair out. Of course, this only makes sense if you accept the 'sex-game gone awry' theory like I do.

Maybe.

3.I disagree that the ropes were used as staging --JonBenet's body bore out the effects of the strangulation. Her brain had little blood in it (less than a teaspoon) thus many pathologists state she was strangled after her heart stopped beating and when she was dead/near death.Further, the ropes seem to be in keeping with the sexual nature of JonBenet's death.

I have to balk on that one, LFB. The vast majority of pathologists say she was struck on the head long before being strangled and that the ropes were meant to serve as staging. On that point, they have the FBI on their side.

 

[BBB167893]

My original question was what dynamic would allow Patsy to cover for John if he did it?

Probably the same ones that cause others to do it: she was 40 years old, unskilled and not as pretty as she used to be. That, and the possibility that he'd kill her if she didn't.

I'm just spitballing here.

 

[joeskidbeck]

Probably the same ones that cause others to do it: she was 40 years old, unskilled and not as pretty as she used to be. That, and the possibility that he'd kill her if she didn't.

I'm just spitballing here.

Lifestyle and the fact that she had cancer would have been enough for PR to cover for JR. We all have to be aware of how important her lifestyle was to Patsy as well as the rest of the Paugh family. JR going to prison wold have ruined everything for the whole family.

 

[BBB167893]

If the head-wound came first why was there so little blood?I personally think that the lack of blood seems to be consistent with the fact that she was already dead once her head was struck.

You might get some argument on that, LFB. Mostly from me. The autopsy report lists no less than three separate areas of bleeding, one of which was about the size of a chair doily.

Drs Werner Spitz, Henry Lee, Tom Henry and Ronald Wright have described the head wound as "fully developed" with "large blood clots," estimating anywhere from 20 to 60 minutes between being hit and finally strangled.

But for the sake of argument, let's say you're right. Kerry Brega, a Denver neurosurgeon, was asked about this case. She said that it's fairly common to get massive head wounds with very little bleeding where no strangulation has occurred.

Why would a parent bash in JonBenet's head? There's no reason for it. The bed-wetting rage scenario is pure speculation.Why couldn't it just be that like we know, JonBenet was being molested, a sex game was done on her which went wrong and then subsequently a coverup was done hence the head-wound.

LFB, perhaps we should combine our powers on this?

 

[BBB167893]

Yep, it's that great 'totallity of evidence' rearing it's head again!

You bet it is! I imagine you'll hear that a lot.

 

[BBB167893]

Indeed it is. Glad you agree.

LOL! Wonderful!

 

[BBB167893]

What Jean said.

We DO NOT allow this type of crap on this forum. KNOCK IT OFF.

If anyone replies again like in previous posts I will personally time them out or ban them.

The JBR forum is very near and dear to my heart. JonBenet is the whole reason I got into the forum world. I won't allow people to hijack a thread like this.

Now, carry on please.

(As Sykes): Sure glad we got that settled!

 

[otg]

3.I disagree that the ropes were used as staging --JonBenet's body bore out the effects of the strangulation. Her brain had little blood in it (less than a teaspoon) thus many pathologists state she was strangled after her heart stopped beating and when she was dead/near death.Further, the ropes seem to be in keeping with the sexual nature of JonBenet's death.

(snipped)

The best explanation on the amount of blood from the head wound can be found in the following post by DeeDee249:
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5906122&postcount=58"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - The complicity of Patsy in coverup.[/ame]

.

 

[Steely]

OK- I will explain AGAIN about the fibers found in JB's bed. There were NO cord fibers found in JB's bed

There were hemp rope fibers found in her bed.

There was a hemp rope found in JAR's bedroom, which is next to JB's room. Patsy at one point had decorated a tree in every bedroom (for the Colorado Christmas house tour). On JAR's tree, which had a "Western/Cowboy" theme, hemp rope was used as garland, and the ornaments were tiny cowboy boots, saddles, etc.
JB is seen with an identical hemp rope in a photo, wearing "country" clothes (jeans and pigtails) with the rope lying next to her.
Patsy has said in her interviews that BR often played with rope, and Patsy's exact words are that BR was "always trying to make a boat or something", that he was always dragging a rope around.
If the hemp rope was in a nearby bedroom, AND if BR (whose bedroom was on that same floor) the hemp rope fibers would be on the floor/carpets and would very naturally have been transferred to her bed (or BR's too, his was not tested) on FEET as they climb into bed.
There is NO indication that the presence of these ROPE (not cord) fibers indicated she was tied in ANY way (there were NO rope marks anywhere on her body, and there were marks from the cord ONLY on her neck) or that the rope played ANY part at all in the crime or the events of that night. It was taken into evidence simply because it was there, and it wasn't found in a paper bag, rather it was placed in a brown paper evidence bag by LE.

So PR wants us to know BR OFTEN played with rope? How do you "make a boat" with a rope? He was always "dragging" a rope around?

This wording sounds really odd to me. I just can't see a 9 year old boy carrying rope around all the time to "make a boat" or make anything for that matter. You don't use a rope to make things. You use a rope to tie things. Practice KNOTS...tie things up...tie one end and use to pull things, hang things etc. I could see a really little kid sitting down and trying to coax a rope into the shape of a boat (maybe) but 9 yrs? NOPE. And as for dragging...I could see a little kid dragging a rope around with a toy attached to it but a 9 year old wandering around the house dragging a rope behind? Maybe she meant "dragging" as "carrying" but still...it sounds like she is trying to explain how rope fibers would be found all over the house.

This got me thinking about PR's comments about BR. Does she say more things which could implicate him and get suspicion off of herself or more things which could be attempts to throw suspicion AWAY from Burke?

I remember reading PR showed support to parents whose child killed their other child. I've started a list of why she might do this...Plesase add your own ideas to the list, thanks!
1) PR knew what it is like to lose a child and wanted to support them
2)PR knew what it is like to have one child hurt another child (even if accident) but didn't think about it throwing suspicion on BR or didn't care if it did (didn't think it would matter)
3)PR knew with the intense media coverage of her that if she showed support for parents of children who lost a child because of a sibling that suspicion would be cast off of her and toward BR.

Other ideas?

 

[DeeDee249]

Steely, these are Patsy's words, not mine. From her interviews. They used to be available on ACR, but are no longer there. If you want to search for them, you can try to find them, unless someone here has them saved (I do not).
I think she meant he used to pretend to tie the rope around things, pretending he was tying up a boat, or dragging stuff around. Kids DO things like that.

 

[Steely]

Steely, these are Patsy's words, not mine. From her interviews. They used to be available on ACR, but are no longer there. If you want to search for them, you can try to find them, unless someone here has them saved (I do not).
I think she meant he used to pretend to tie the rope around things, pretending he was tying up a boat, or dragging stuff around. Kids DO things like that.

I read those interviews too and at the time the wording struck me as very odd about a, what was he? a third grade boy?....so I knew that those were Patsy's words. I'm sorry I wasn't more clear... my questions weren't directed at you personally, DeeDee249.

 

[Let_Forever_Be]

SuperDave : You might get some argument on that, LFB. Mostly from me. The autopsy report lists no less than three separate areas of bleeding, one of which was about the size of a chair doily.

Drs Werner Spitz, Henry Lee, Tom Henry and Ronald Wright have described the head wound as "fully developed" with "large blood clots," estimating anywhere from 20 to 60 minutes between being hit and finally strangled.

But for the sake of argument, let's say you're right. Kerry Brega, a Denver neurosurgeon, was asked about this case. She said that it's fairly common to get massive head wounds with very little bleeding where no strangulation has occurred.

One of the problems is that there is disagreement regarding the dead body. Just as you have listed people who advocate certain stances, there are other pathologists etc who dispute it. That's obviously affected people, here on the sleuthing trail, in their quest to make a coherent argument. I include myself in that too.

My reasoning to explain for the lack of head-wound blood was that the head was struck near the top of the skull thus the chambers which facilitate the brain's working power are not affected. They are at the base of the neck. It's only when the brain swells that death occurs.

I obviously postulate that the head-wound came after the neck trauma. Meyer's autopsy report was worrying to me -- it couldn't state with certainty the sole cause of death.A better coroner may may been able to get a more succinct conclusion as to the cause of death.

I agree with Cyril Wecht's analysis of this case -- JonBenet died due to a vagal reflex. This explains why an EA device was being used (I think that is what it was). This explains the ropes used as ties to 'restrain her'. This explains the genital trauma in relation to the neck trauma and why she had acute injures to her genitals.I obviously think the head-wound was staging done afterwards thus the lack of blood was due to the fact that JonBenet was dead/near death when it was inflicted.I think the perpetrator tried to resuscitate her and realised she was gone thus a headwound was simulated to make it look like an intruder did it.

LFB, perhaps we should combine our powers on this?

Absolutely -- any theories or views, just fire away. I'm always interested to hear what everyone has to say.

 

[Peepers]

I dont think Patsy was complacant in a cover up for this reason...That would mean she wasnt the ringleader and was covering for who? John? I dont believe John molested or killed Jonbonet. I think it was either Burke, and Patsy convinced John to assist in the cover up or it was an intruder. Either of those ways doesnt make Patsy the complacent one to me. I personally dont think Patsy was cowering and writing a fake RN to protect her husband..