The Crown v Gerard Baden-Clay, 2nd July - Trial Day 14, Week 3

[Susan12]

You know I feel a little sympathetic to the defence witnesses. They were doing their job the best they could for the defence in their areas of expertise. They didn't lie and so that's probably why they ended up supporting the prosecution as much if not more than the defence. I think GBC is guilty as I see no alternative and that crocodile tears incident leaves me cold but if he wasn't you'd have to feel sorry for him with no real defence and his own testimony not looking great.

 

[JCB]

Have to admit, it's difficult to find a 'good' photo of GBC. Packs of Tums should be mandatory for online sleuths for the duration of this trial

Just curious, is he genuinely that physically repulsive? To me he looks relatively normal but then again, I'm not really in the habit of checking out guys!

 

[Neuromancer]

I am a psychiatric nurse and work in the forensic system. Narcissists are an absolute nightmare to deal with in the forensic setting as they are in real life.

I have got a little insight here to share so you can get an insight into how a true narcissist actually views themselves and the wider world.

The external image of the narcissist is the polar opposite of his/her internal world. On the outside the classic narcissist is frequently physically attractive, highly self confident, overflowing with charm. You feel the strong handshake, the eyes that penetrate your gaze, the rising of the jaw that tells you they are sure of every step. They are in command of their lives, unafraid and sure-footed. They spin phenomenal visions that are fueled by their grandiosity. Many people are fascinated by the narcissist in full bloom, exhibiting all of his persuasive gifts. When you are with a master narcissist you believe that anything is possible and can be accomplished with ease. The narcissistic view of life has no limits. They inspire awe in most people if they are high level narcissists who have mastered control and manipulation of others.

Beneath the glittery, irresistible surface, the inner world of the narcissist is empty, bleak and dark. There is a lifeless quality to the inner narcissist. These individuals are unacquainted with their unconscious feelings about themselves. They have no insight and believe their finely spun delusions. They convince others that they are superior and super human. Their followers are blindly loyal and believe they can do no wrong. Deep in the unconscious the narcissist is drowning in his self loathing and fraudulence. He feels empty and emotionally rudderless.

Pressure, self hatred, psychological lifelessness, unending restlessness and rage build up in the narcissist within the unconscious. The narcissist cannot contain these overpowering feelings so he projects them like bilious vomit on to those in his close environment. This includes his/her spouses, ex-spouses, children, siblings and in-laws. When they seethe with volcanic rage, the sounds emitted are bestial. Some of them let loose in public. Others save these ugly, rancorous scenes for private venues.

If you share your life with a narcissist, despite the role that you play, know that this person is never going to change. This is a severe personality disorder that is fixed and rigid. The narcissist lives in a psychological darkness that pulls others down into its depths. His/her demands, hatreds, treacheries, mounting cruelties, crimes of the heart mount as the darkness envelops him. He is unconcerned since the narcissist is out of touch with himself. It is those around him who are devastated by his internal psychological poisons. At the core he is putrid like a corpse that has been lying in the sun, giving off the lingering odor of death and decay. How long will you stay and be disastrously affected by this individual. Are there enough material rewards to cover up the stench of his vile deeds and deceits. Listen and you will hear the voice of your intuition rising, speaking to you in a compelling tone, telling you: “Get out now. Leave. Don’t stay or you will be trapped and lose yourself.”

There are many who have successfully removed themselves from the narcissist’s dark inner world. They have re-discovered themselves as individuals. The cracks of light have lengthened. They are in full light now and traveling a different road. Know that you can leave this dark place, that you don’t belong there.

reference: www.thenarcissistinyourlife.com

Thanks AL - great post.

That's why my skin crawls when I hear people talking about the idea of the BC girls maintaining a relationship with their father.

 

[BreakingNews]

I was in court today until the end of the witnesses at lunch time. The last few defence witnesses may as well have been for the prosecution as IMO it didn't aide the defence in anyway. They are still banging on about the suicide.

In summing up, I reckon the defence will still go for the suicide theory and paint GBC as the ideal husband and his affairs (which after today in court I believe were more than the 3 mistresses we know about) were for sex only and meaningless to him and he intended to stay true and with Allison forever.

Then the prosecution will present their case which will state their was no indication of suicide - as per previous evidence + evidence from defence witnesses today. And state that GBC smothered Allison, she scratched the right side of his face with her left hand fingernails, he bundled her into the captiva and she broke her tooth and started bleeding as he dumped her in the car then dumped her at K.Creek.

Still he says he didn't do it. He has agreed that he deceived Allison, Toni etc, business partners, parents etc etc etc for several years, so why not lie about his murdering of Allison. Also he is still denying that his business was in trouble (OMG isn't he a finance person???)

Bottom line is that his business was in financial kaos; TM was hassling him to leave Allison and be with her; he didn't love Allison and wanted a life with TM - volatility and all, because he was flattered.

Why doesn't GBC just plead guilty? This would enable him to work through his feelings and attempt to move forward and out of his denial. Until he admits to what he has done there is no way he will be able to move forward. You can lie to your wife; lie to you lovers; lie to your family; lie to your friends; lie to your work colleagues; BUT you can never lie to yourself and live forever with these lies!

 

[laserdisc10]

Just curious, is he genuinely that physically repulsive? To me he looks relatively normal but then again, I'm not really in the habit of checking out guys!

Oh well, you'll have to rely on me -- and of course other women and men

Yes, he's repulsive imo. And it's not just me or other Websleuthers. Can't believe you've missed posts by those who met him prior to Allison's murder. Several people met him during his real-estate agent incarnation and their opinions weren't coloured by his latest claim to fame, yet they stressed what a blow-hard wannabe he was and how he had -- in Aussie parlance -- tickets all over himself, even when he was a yellow jacketed bag of blubber

But, you know --- you might find him attractive. TM and others did

 

[marlywings]

I should clarify - When I say it always goes in their favour, I don't mean that they are always acquitted. The defence just has far more room to restructure their argument than the prosecution. Plus in a case like this any retrial is likely to be judge only which most believe assists the defendant. This a concern I have with the Cowan conviction, the media releasing details of his abhorrent past has put paid to a trial by jury if a retrial is ordered on appeal.

As far as I'm aware & I will check it, Cowan is appealing because of a photo published by CM.

The media didn't release details of his past criminal history until the trial was over & sentence handed down.....which they were allowed to do.

 

[alioop]

Now this part is finished if gererd changes his plea do they go back to court straight away or do they have to wait till Monday? I doubt he will but just wondered

Well he won't be changing his plea to guilty as he won't gain anything by doing that.

I.M.O. MOST of the jury would think he is guilty already, but I think a few will have doubts until the end. I hope not. I definitely think he is guilty . Can someone be convicted on a majority verdict in Qld. now?

Not for murder in Qld. Has to be unanimous.

I seriously doubt that Gerard would agree to a plea deal. He'll still think he's winning. He always wins in his mind. He'll be planning the after party as we speak and making sure he has enough business cards for the judge and jury and all the people who came to support HIM.

:sigh:

I agree.

I'm pretty sure legal aid won't fund an appeal. Ali?

An application would need to be made to legal aid and they make a decision based on the grounds of the appeal and prospects of success.

I just cant see the State of QLD offering him a lesser charge.. they've gone with these two charges, and that's that..

Gerard could bleat about it, but unless the QLD Prosecution service,, the DPP offers it, he can bleat till kingdom come.

I agree. At this stage of the trial, I just cannot see a deal being done to accept a guilty plea on manslaughter. The prosecution will take their chances with the jury I believe.

Remember there have been legal arguments which haven't been published, (not about pleas as such but all sorts of things about how things are going to proceed, the possibilities, the jury, the process etc) I have been in the court for the legal arguments today, and last Wednesday which went for a couple of hours. Can't say much more than that.

I'm not sure how it works, but is there a Verified Expert - Alioop? lurking somewhere?

I don't know if it has to involve changing a plea, or whether the jury can find him not guilty of murder, but guilty of unlawful killing, or manslaughter? I'm sure there is a process, don't know if it is the same in every state, it definitely is different in different countries. I also don't know the difference between 'unlawful killing' as opposed to 'manslaughter'. Is there a difference between the two, and what is the difference compared to murder?

Even though the charges are for Murder, does that give the jury the right to say they believe he is guilty of manslaughter or unlawful killing instead? Surely there has to be some provision for that.

However, there is one thing I do know, the sentence for something like this wouldnt be that much lesser for unlawful killing than it would be for murder, especially because of the interfering with a corpse.

Alioop? are you there?

Personally, I believe there will be further legal argument about these things and a lot more, before Monday, and I believe that somehow, after due legal process, he will be found guilty of (at least) unlawful killing and interfering with a corpse.

Perhaps someone can do some research but I would also suggest that attendance at Fridays legal arguments could reveal more. I don't know if it will, but I just feel that if there is any possibility then this is the only chance to work out this aspect of things, and part of the way things have gone during these legal arguments is a surprising degree of openness and transparency about what is going to happen, and gaining agreement between Judge, Prosecutor and Defence.

The judge will instruct the jury that if they don't agree on murder but agree on manslaughter, and the judge will explain the difference, that they can find him guilty of manslaughter. So there will be plenty of instruction about the legal elements of both these types of unlawful killing.

That is something to ask a lawyer - I have no idea but I guess the defence may have thought the blog was admissible for whatever reason. Alioop?

I really don't know either but maybe it was the timing of it, ie being raised in cross examination or maybe that it had not been disclosed previously to the defence.

But this assumes he is telling the truth. Cant the judge instruct them that if they choose not to believe that he is telling the truth and that they also choose not to accept the motive of the money/insurance/moving in with lover, that they can say he is guilty of manslaughter if they believe it was a fight about the conference or mistress or whatever, which went wrong and he went into a rage and killed her, unplanned and independent of any financial issues.

Hoping alioop will be here later to give a Verified Expert view.

Generally speaking Murder involves intent to cause serious harm or death. That intent can be premeditated or it can be on the spur of the moment while for eg you have the pillow over someone's face. So in this case, it is open to the jury to decide that he pre planned to kill Allison for the life insurance and or to end his marriage to be with Toni and avoid a divorce- intent to kill, or that for eg they were lying in bed and he just grabs a pillow and smothers her for whatever reason as a spur of the moment decision. Either way there is still intent.

Manslaughter is an unlawful killing other than murder. Killing in self defence of self or others is lawful but generally any other way of killing is unlawful. Yes the jury could find that they believe he killed her but find him guilty of manslaughter rather than murder.

Either way, if they find him guilty of either murder or manslaughter, they will no doubt also find him guilty of the charge of interference with her body on the basis he moved her body to the creek.


If there are still any questions I can try to help with that I haven't answered would you mind reposting them as I may have missed some that haven't already been answered by others.

 

[Trooper]

Just curious, is he genuinely that physically repulsive? To me he looks relatively normal but then again, I'm not really in the habit of checking out guys!

he has a prissy mouth.. ... the sort of mouth that issues rules and orders and long redundant speeches on the subject of every little thing he does, thinks, says, believes is simply amazingly terrific.

prissy but attempting to be Mr Manly.

 

[laserdisc10]

You know I feel a little sympathetic to the defence witnesses. They were doing their job the best they could for the defence in their areas of expertise. They didn't lie and so that's probably why they ended up supporting the prosecution as much if not more than the defence. I think GBC is guilty as I see no alternative and that crocodile tears incident leaves me cold but if he wasn't you'd have to feel sorry for him with no real defence and his own testimony not looking great.

All my sympathies lie with Allison, her daughters, her parents, her siblings and friends

 

[Neuromancer]

No just wondering what was wrong with the blog??

There was something Ali said a while back that the Pros and def have to share with each other all the evidence they will be presenting before the trial starts (I think - don't quote me). Wondering if it's something along those lines? That it was new to the defence? (although, if so, they also fail at google)

 

[angelalansbury]

Been hoping and praying that someone, Professionally and Psychiatrically trained, might come here, and shed some light on Narcissism.
Plenty here, I suspect who have lived with it, survived it, learned from it, escaped from it; but to date ... no word from a professional in that field. I for one am keen to hear from you. Thankyou in advance.

Hi LB1,

I can't say I am an 'expert' in narcissism or much else for that matter. What I can say is that I have worked in Forensic psychiatry for ten years. I spent a year at a prison where my role with my team was to screen and assess every prisoner that came into custody for mental illness. Needless to say that I have met and assessed a fair number of high profile cases.

For the most part, I work in a high secure forensic hospital for offenders found not guilty due to mental impairment. It is in this work that I have come across the difficulties that working with narcissists.

As I said, I am no 'expert' but do have considerable experience of how they operate from a clinical perspective. NIGHTMARES

Clinical teams usually need group supervision to keep the team from falling apart as they are masterful at splitting teams by playing one off against the other. I could go on for hours.

My post earlier was to point out that their grandiose and self assured exterior hides a deep self loathing. Gerard knows he is a FAILURE and continually screws things up. This would eat away at him.

Thankfully I don't work in QLD. There is no way I would even post on this topic if I worked in QLD.

Let's hope justice for Allison is delivered next week. I am quietly confident as I think the evidence- blood, scratches, motive etc to me are the clinchers. I can only imagine what those women on the jury think of him- and the men. He is the type of character that is repulsive when his life is presented in such a clinical manner.

 

[BreakingNews]

Sorry, but am too tired to go back over posts for today, but first up in court today was judge talking about note GBC gave to ballif to give to the jury. Ballif didn't and gave it to judge. GBC had done this without his lawyers knowing. His lawyers took him aside to 'discuss' then court resumed and jury was called back in. OMG, what was on that note??? Was it his business card??? Was it an invitation to a female juror to meet up??? Or did he simply tell them all that he loved them and it was business as usual.

 

[laserdisc10]

Sorry, but am too tired to go back over posts for today, but first up in court today was judge talking about note GBC gave to ballif to give to the jury. Ballif didn't and gave it to judge. GBC had done this without his lawyers knowing. His lawyers took him aside to 'discuss' then court resumed and jury was called back in. OMG, what was on that note??? Was it his business card??? Was it an invitation to a female juror to meet up??? Or did he simply tell them all that he loved them and it was business as usual.

Seriously ?

 

[JK673]

Just curious, is he genuinely that physically repulsive? To me he looks relatively normal but then again, I'm not really in the habit of checking out guys!

From the start BEFORE everything took off....I looked at him and thought he was a bit dodgy...now ....ewwww I am not going to describe the image I have as it would be etched in the ether forever and I would rather forget the image I have imagined, of his possible action in the bedroom, that I have in my head

 

[alioop]

Hi LB1,

I can't say I am an 'expert' in narcissism or much else for that matter. What I can say is that I have worked in Forensic psychiatry for ten years. I spent a year at a prison where my role with my team was to screen and assess every prisoner that came into custody for mental illness. Needless to say that I have met and assessed a fair number of high profile cases.

For the most part, I work in a high secure forensic hospital for offenders found not guilty due to mental impairment. It is in this work that I have come across the difficulties that working with narcissists.

As I said, I am no 'expert' but do have considerable experience of how they operate from a clinical perspective. NIGHTMARES

Clinical teams usually need group supervision to keep the team from falling apart as they are masterful at splitting teams by playing one off against the other. I could go on for hours.

My post earlier was to point out that their grandiose and self assured exterior hides a deep self loathing. Gerard knows he is a FAILURE and continually screws things up. This would eat away at him.

Thankfully I don't work in QLD. There is no way I would even post on this topic if I worked in QLD.

Let's hope justice for Allison is delivered next week. I am quietly confident as I think the evidence- blood, scratches, motive etc to me are the clinchers. I can only imagine what those women on the jury think of him- and the men. He is the type of character that is repulsive when his life is presented in such a clinical manner.

I admire you for doing this type of work, I would run a mile. Give me a cushy non criminal law job working with nice clients any day!

 

[Trooper]

Sorry, but am too tired to go back over posts for today, but first up in court today was judge talking about note GBC gave to ballif to give to the jury. Ballif didn't and gave it to judge. GBC had done this without his lawyers knowing. His lawyers took him aside to 'discuss' then court resumed and jury was called back in. OMG, what was on that note??? Was it his business card??? Was it an invitation to a female juror to meet up??? Or did he simply tell them all that he loved them and it was business as usual.

:crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy:


I'm going for (2)

 

[BreakingNews]

Seriously ?

All true Seriously.

 

[catswhiskers]

Just curious, is he genuinely that physically repulsive? To me he looks relatively normal but then again, I'm not really in the habit of checking out guys!

I think he is just an ordinary looking guy that you probably wouldn't look twice at in the street. IMO the revulsion is no doubt coloured by what we have learned about him over the past couple of years - his performance in the past week just seals the repulsive deal. His cheesy promotional photos don't help, and nor does the fact that yellowy/mustard is just nobody's colour! I wonder if Century 21 has rethought that look, and if they have, did it have anything to do with the negative publicity GBC has attracted?

 

[Neuromancer]

But this assumes he is telling the truth. Cant the judge instruct them that if they choose not to believe that he is telling the truth and that they also choose not to accept the motive of the money/insurance/moving in with lover, that they can say he is guilty of manslaughter if they believe it was a fight about the conference or mistress or whatever, which went wrong and he went into a rage and killed her, unplanned and independent of any financial issues.

Hoping alioop will be here later to give a Verified Expert view.

the jury don't get to decide any of that here in Australia do they? It's just the current charges - guilty or not

 

[Trooper]

Sorry, but am too tired to go back over posts for today, but first up in court today was judge talking about note GBC gave to ballif to give to the jury. Ballif didn't and gave it to judge. GBC had done this without his lawyers knowing. His lawyers took him aside to 'discuss' then court resumed and jury was called back in. OMG, what was on that note??? Was it his business card??? Was it an invitation to a female juror to meet up??? Or did he simply tell them all that he loved them and it was business as usual.

Gerard gave the baliff a note to give to the JURY???!!!!!!

poor Mr Byrne QC~... . some clients one just cannot , cannot do anything for.. they are just not capable of taking advice, even when they pay for it, they have NO idea of where they are at or even why they are there..

oh poor mr Byrne!