The Duct Tape Match #2

[FairNBalanced]

I imagine that every roll of duct tape has printing on inside of roll?

What we have been discussing is the pieces of tape taken as evidence that have HENKEL actually on the tape.

Could you look at your roll and see if the actual tape has henkel on it.

Funny you should mention shoes.

NG wa hot on shoes last week. Nobody has discussed it.
Shoes were taken into evidence from car and 22 pairs taken in december warrants?

I think we're discussing tape here Herc...

 

[dbromley]

Thanks for the pictures. I will get an opinion on this product and its prevalence on Monday. Even if the logo printed product is a small portion of their business, it's still hundreds of thousands of rolls a year. I'm sure if this becomes a key point in the prosecution, sales records will be subpoened.

Oh, and duct tape is hard to tear unless you have the knack. It takes a certain wrist action that is hard to master but those who use it frequently, can tear it easily.

Did you happen to notice any type of product identification on either the core or package-like a product number or even a descriptor? If you have any additional information, I can do some more digging to find out how widely this is distributed.


Henkel/Manco may convert their duct tape (cut it down from large manufactured rolls-think of a huge roll of tape 5 or 6 feet wide and thousands of meters long being cut into the 48mm/2" x 55m rolls you purchase) but I'm pretty certain they do not have a duct tape manufacturing line unless they installed it very recently. Lots of converters and distributors say they make tape but they purchase from others, convert, package, and distribute.

If you have knowledge that Henkel has a duct tape coating line, please share! My understanding is that Shurtape Technologies makes Henkel's duct tape these days.

"Henkel Gets Full Ownership of Manco To Launch Products into the US.

Article from: Chemical Market Reporter Article date: August 17, 1998
Schnell Publishing Company, Inc. This material is published under license from the publisher through the Gale Group, Farmington Hills, Michigan. All inquiries regarding rights should be directed to the Gale Group. (Hide copyright information)

HENKEL CORPORATION has once more expanded its role in US consumer products by buying the 35 percent of Manco Inc. it did not already own.

Avon, Ohio-based Manco manufactures consumer goods including adhesive tapes, office stationary and do-it-yourself products. The company had sales of $172 million last year. Henkel acquired a 65 percent stake in Manco early this year.

The remaining 35 percent was purchased primarily from CEO Jack Kahl, who will continue to lead Manco and serve on Henkel's executive committee. Manco's existing management team will remain in place with president and COO John Kahl overseeing the company's operations in North America. Bill Kahl, executive vice- ... "

Remember the logo of the specific Avon location is on this tape, and this is the "Duck Tape" capital of the world. They have a huge sign as big as their main building with the duck logo picture and a huge factory and corporate park here. They produce ALL of the all-purpose duck tape, and I would assume any other "Duck Brand" tapes, but I can't confirm that.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Bringing over here: Sentinel reports that docs say that tape found on Caylee, matches tape on gas can.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...asey-anthony-discovery-021809,0,5750058.story

The only match here is the fact that this duct tape is sold in every hardware store in Florida. The "chemical" match is junk science. It will not easily fly in a court anymore:

http://www8.nationalacademies.org/onpinews/newsitem.aspx?RecordID=12589

"WASHINGTON -- A congressionally mandated report from the National Research Council finds serious deficiencies in the nation's forensic science system and calls for major reforms and new research. Rigorous and mandatory certification programs for forensic scientists are currently lacking, the report says, as are strong standards and protocols for analyzing and reporting on evidence....." "Moreover, many forensic science labs are underfunded, understaffed, and have no effective oversight...."

"...Forensic evidence is often offered in criminal prosecutions and civil litigation to support conclusions about individualization -- in other words, to "match" a piece of evidence to a particular person, weapon, or other source. But with the exception of nuclear DNA analysis, the report says, no forensic method has been rigorously shown able to consistently, and with a high degree of certainty, demonstrate a connection between evidence and a specific individual or source .....

"....In addition to investigating the limits of the techniques themselves, studies should also examine sources and rates of human error...As part of this effort, more research should be done on "contextual bias," which occurs when the results of forensic analysis are influenced by an examiner's knowledge about the suspect's background or an investigator's knowledge of a case. One study found that fingerprint examiners did not always agree even with their own past conclusions when the same evidence was presented in a different context..... "

(READ THE REST OF THIS ARTICLE AT THE LINK ABOVE. This article is dtd 2/18/09. There is also a link there to the full report by the National Research Council for the government)

This report will also apply to the "decomp air analysis". The first lab LE sent a sample to (National Center for Forensic Science in Orlando, rpt dtd 7/30/08 in the released documents) said there were not able to conclusively demonstrate that human decomposition was previously present in the auto's trunk because there were other possible sources for the materials/chemicals found in the air samples.

LE did not like that answer so they sent another sample to the Tennessee body farm (along with ORNL facilities), which trains law enforcement (and almost always testifies for the prosecution and never for a defendant) and they found something (!?) .... and they now have a report of decomposition in the trunk! However even the body farm says it is better stated as “It Could be that” (See the National Research Council's report for the underlined, quoted wording). The Tennessee Body Farm report is located in the released documents.

Now all of this massive, unprecedented exposure/release of information in this case and the prosecution slanted info leaked by "sources close to the investigation" makes sense! Most of what the prosecution claims as evidence is easily disputed by the defense now with the congressionally ordered investigation results and the release of this report.

 

[gorba]

I couldn't manage to get a decent pic of the inside of the roll of tape...

Thanks, FNB. That was me looking for the core to see if there were any more identifiers like a product code so I could reference some additional information to determine how much of this was produced. It looks like there isn't any additional info in the core. But, thanks for getting the picture and sorry it was so difficult.

I have some investigating to do on Monday and will post back.

I am done debating whether Henkel makes or only converts and packages the product as it is not germane to this discussion. The true manufacturer of the product would be the one who would provide additional details on the adhesive composition and if relevant, that should come out at trial.

Be back on Monday.

 

[FX Wiz]

The only match here is the fact that this duct tape is sold in every hardware store in Florida. The "chemical" match is junk science. It will not easily fly in a court...

I read that article the following morning in my paper copy of the Orlando Sentinel. In fact I have been a subscriber to and have read the "Slantinel" every day for over 20 years (except of course when I go out of town about twice a year for a week or two). Trust me.. you will not find the whole truth in this Tribune Co. product.
However I too am a skeptic and don't watch CSI.
- Cadaver dog hit on their car trunk? Yea right but you can't put a dog on the witness stand.
- Air samples? Empty jars FedExed to Tennesee... a stretch.
- A hair that fell from a live host or a deceased host? Questionable.
- UV and weather degraded tape matched to tape that most likely got a good dousing of gasoline? Probably never be 100% sure.

OK so... back to the CIRCUMSTANTIAL evidence...
By circumstance, the dog hit on the trunk, KS's friends smelled decomposition, the tow yard guys smelled decomposition, and KS's parents both claimed they knew what a dead body smelled like (and GA went so far as to tell LE that he actually feared the KS might have done something and Caylee might have been in the trunk). KS made up the sqirrel story then texted Amy on 6/27 saying she got rid of the "smell" from her car. We all know after that she abandoned the car at Amscott.
By circumstance, the tape on the remains was the exact same brand as what was on the can in the garage (the same garage she backed into the day she borrowed the shovel) and further this tape has an identifying mark which is NOT as common as some news sources may lead you to believe (could be under 2% of rolls have it). Furthermore, there is adhesive residue shown to be MORE than likely to be from a heart sticker and guess what, circumstantially the A's used them ALOT, and a witness says she saw KS perform a similar ceremony with a deceased pet in that same wooded hangout.
Then there's the lying, the phone calls, and just SO much more.

 

[Rumpole]

The only match here is the fact that this duct tape is sold in every hardware store in Florida. The "chemical" match is junk science. It will not easily fly in a court anymore:

Based on posts here duct tape with "Henkel" logo on the tape is NOT sold in every store. In fact only one roll has been sited and "FX Wiz" who I believe reports it was not available in ANY of the stores sampled.
That makes it a very uncommon variation and adds weight (not total proof) to the importance of that rare tape being on the remains and at the Ant house.

 

[FairNBalanced]

Based on posts here duct tape with "Henkel" logo on the tape is NOT sold in every store. In fact only one roll has been sited and "FX Wiz" who I believe reports it was not available in ANY of the stores sampled.
That makes it a very uncommon variation and adds weight (not total proof) to the importance of that rare tape being on the remains and at the Ant house.

You can't call that tape "rare" without proof that is rare. Just because it isn't in every store right now, doesn't mean it hasn't been sold in every store before a hurricane cometh. You have no way of knowing how many rolls of that particular tape with that logo are in Florida homes. The only way to know that is to find out how many rolls with that logo on it were manufactured, shipped to, and sold in the past few years in central Florida. If it's a hundred...or 1,000...or 10,000 rolls...or 100,000...that just means those rolls have sold out and remain in that many Florida homes. If Henkel has discontinued putting that logo on the outside of their "Duck brand" tape (as shown on the inner core) that would account for none being on Florida shelves at this point. Doesn't prove how many with that logo were still in use in 2008. I think that's what the defense will be attempting to show...that there are plenty of those rolls of tape out there.

IMO, not a good argument for the prosecution, if the defense can blow them out of the water with sales figures showing there is a boatload of that particular logo tape out there. It has about as much significance as the black trash bags with yellow handles...how many of those do you think are out there? Guess we could all be suspect.

 

[Marina2]

Most all of the duct tape that I've seen with printing on it is used by general contractors in HVAC applications. Apparently, the print being visible on the outside is to aid in quickly identifying tape that meets certain building codes. Maybe it's not widely marketed to those at the consumer level.

 

[fortytwo]

Most all of the duct tape that I've seen with printing on it is used by general contractors in HVAC applications. Apparently, the print being visible on the outside is to aid in quickly identifying tape that meets certain building codes. Maybe it's not widely marketed to those at the consumer level.

Duct tape, ironically enough, is rarely used on HVAC duct anymore. It proved to be less suitable (mostly due to longevity) than other sealants.

 

[Rumpole]

You can't call that tape "rare" without proof that is rare. Just because it isn't in every store right now, doesn't mean it hasn't been sold in every store before a hurricane cometh. You have no way of knowing how many rolls of that particular tape with that logo are in Florida homes. The only way to know that is to find out how many rolls with that logo on it were manufactured, shipped to, and sold in the past few years in central Florida. If it's a hundred...or 1,000...or 10,000 rolls...or 100,000...that just means those rolls have sold out and remain in that many Florida homes. If Henkel has discontinued putting that logo on the outside of their "Duck brand" tape (as shown on the inner core) that would account for none being on Florida shelves at this point. Doesn't prove how many with that logo were still in use in 2008. I think that's what the defense will be attempting to show...that there are plenty of those rolls of tape out there.

IMO, not a good argument for the prosecution, if the defense can blow them out of the water with sales figures showing there is a boatload of that particular logo tape out there. It has about as much significance as the black trash bags with yellow handles...how many of those do you think are out there? Guess we could all be suspect.

I was not making an arguement for the prosecution. I was trying to encourage a little bit of WSing to get an idea if "Logo" is common or not.
I invited people to disprove the NullHypothesis that "logo" tape is rare.
Almost NOBODY has cited "logo" tape. That leads to the conclusion it is rare but someone else could disprove that still if they show evidence of large amounts of "logo" tape in shops or homes.
You supplied a photo. Is that your own roll or a pic from a brochure? That is the only pic with logo so far so I am still running with "It is rare.

 

[fortytwo]

I was not making an arguement for the prosecution. I was trying to encourage a little bit of WSing to get an idea if "Logo" is common or not.
I invited people to disprove the NullHypothesis that "logo" tape is rare.
Almost NOBODY has cited "logo" tape. That leads to the conclusion it is rare but someone else could disprove that still if they show evidence of large amounts of "logo" tape in shops or homes.
You supplied a photo. Is that your own roll or a pic from a brochure? That is the only pic with logo so far so I am still running with "It is rare.

I'm inclined to agree, Herc. The one anomalous data point was the poster , local to the area, who says that they bought a roll in a local store.

 

[Marina2]

Duct tape, ironically enough, is rarely used on HVAC duct anymore. It proved to be less suitable (mostly due to longevity) than other sealants.

Yes, I actually read that duct tape is not suitable for duct use. I was surprised to learn that duct tape was actually called "duck" tape first because of it's use during WW2 for ammo boxes and it's waterproofing ability.
I was going by certain articles that I've read though that standards have been met by some manufacturers to address this suitability issue. The printed tapes I've found are such as those listed at this link. I assumed they are being used more now in the HVAC field.

http://www.shurtape.com/Portals/0/HVAC_090808.pdf

 

[FairNBalanced]

I was not making an arguement for the prosecution. I was trying to encourage a little bit of WSing to get an idea if "Logo" is common or not.
I invited people to disprove the NullHypothesis that "logo" tape is rare.
Almost NOBODY has cited "logo" tape. That leads to the conclusion it is rare but someone else could disprove that still if they show evidence of large amounts of "logo" tape in shops or homes.
You supplied a photo. Is that your own roll or a pic from a brochure? That is the only pic with logo so far so I am still running with "It is rare.

They were pics that I took of my own roll.

It was right here in the bedroom when the Henkel logo was being discussed. Imagine my surprise to find out I owned a roll of that logo tape. I have to believe that a lot of it was sold when we had those 4 hurricanes pass over central Florida several years ago. I can't prove how many, but maybe someone else can ferret it out.

If it's that rare, I think I need to lawyer up. LOL

 

[fortytwo]

Yes, I actually read that duct tape is not suitable for duct use. I was surprised to learn that duct tape was actually called "duck" tape first because of it's use during WW2 for ammo boxes and it's waterproofing ability.
I was going by certain articles that I've read though that standards have been met by some manufacturers to address this suitability issue. The printed tapes I've found are such as those listed at this link. I assumed they are being used more now in the HVAC field.

http://www.shurtape.com/Portals/0/HVAC_090808.pdf

Yes, this is true. Note that the applications listed are primarily involving flexible duct. Speaking from my experience in heavy commercial construction, rigid (metal) duct is normally sealed with a liquid applied (water or solvent based, but exploding ducts are a story for another time) sealant. The "tap" or final connections to the supply registers are run with flex duct, and those transitions are fastened with a plastic zip strap and often sealed with duct tape. Residential construction involves the use of a great deal more flex duct.

Your premise, BTW, is still valid, and pertinent to this discussion. I, too, am more familiar with tape with logos as a higher end product, but what we need to see is if we can determine what products were commonly available in the area at or around that time.

 

[Rumpole]

They were pics that I took of my own roll.

It was right here in the bedroom when the Henkel logo was being discussed. Imagine my surprise to find out I owned a roll of that logo tape. I have to believe that a lot of it was sold when we had those 4 hurricanes pass over central Florida several years ago. I can't prove how many, but maybe someone else can ferret it out.

If it's that rare, I think I need to lawyer up. LOL

OK

That was as I thought when you first posted. A very valuable contribution because it's not all that rare.
But since then you will notice that reports are from people who can not find that logo on rolls at home or in shops and most report they have never seen it?
More reports are welcome, but todate we know of only two samples that match the tape found on the skull.
One is on GA gas tank.
The other is YOU have a whole roll of the damned death tape!

Yes lawyer up by all means.

The evidence points to your place or the Ants!

 

[Marina2]

:laugh: Now that's funny, HP!

OK

That was as I thought when you first posted. A very valuable contribution because it's not all that rare.
But since then you will notice that reports are from people who can not find that logo on rolls at home or in shops and most report they have never seen it?
More reports are welcome, but todate we know of only two samples that match the tape found on the skull.
One is on GA gas tank.
The other is YOU have a whole roll of the damned death tape!

Yes lawyer up by all means.

The evidence points to your place or the Ants!

 

[FX Wiz]

You can't call that tape "rare" without proof that is rare. Just because it isn't in every store right now, doesn't mean it hasn't been sold in every store before a hurricane cometh. You have no way of knowing how many rolls of that particular tape with that logo are in Florida homes. The only way to know that is to find out how many rolls with that logo on it were manufactured, shipped to, and sold in the past few years in central Florida.

You're right. No proof yet, but there are definite indications that there was probably a shipment of this tape to one or more of the home supply stores on the east side, but a shipment usually consists of 1 pallet which would hold enough rolls for say an Ace Hardware to last for one hurricane season. I say this because NORMALLY the stores only carry 1 box of value grade, 1 box of heavy duty grade, and 1 box of contractor's grade, with NO logos on it. We haven't had a hurricane hit here in 5 years. Tropical Storm Fay just rained a lot and there was no panic or store stampedes as in 2004.
I'm not judging only by the three different rolls I found in my house, but by the fact that I have worked for Disney, SeaWorld, Universal Studios and Ripley's Art Dept. for the last 30 years and we used ALOT of duct tape purchased right here in Orlando. It's used in the special effect/moldmaking industry because fiberglass, foam and resins don't stick to the surface. Sometimes we cover entire pieces of plywood or cardboard with tape.
I'm glad 5 years have gone by since last hurricane hit Central Fla because many of those hard to come by logoed ones are used up & gone now. Remember, the FBI went out & purchased 82 rolls (granted, not in Orlando) at random but only 1 had the logo.

 

[Marina2]

Yes, this is true. Note that the applications listed are primarily involving flexible duct. Speaking from my experience in heavy commercial construction, rigid (metal) duct is normally sealed with a liquid applied (water or solvent based, but exploding ducts are a story for another time) sealant. The "tap" or final connections to the supply registers are run with flex duct, and those transitions are fastened with a plastic zip strap and often sealed with duct tape. Residential construction involves the use of a great deal more flex duct.

Your premise, BTW, is still valid, and pertinent to this discussion. I, too, am more familiar with tape with logos as a higher end product, but what we need to see is if we can determine what products were commonly available in the area at or around that time.

Thanks, Fortytwo. I was thinking that maybe this tape was one of those higher-end types and thus, not widely available commercially.

 

[Rumpole]

You're right. No proof yet, but there are definite indications that there was probably a shipment of this tape to one or more of the home supply stores on the east side, but a shipment usually consists of 1 pallet which would hold enough rolls for say an Ace Hardware to last for one hurricane season. I say this because NORMALLY the stores only carry 1 box of value grade, 1 box of heavy duty grade, and 1 box of contractor's grade, with NO logos on it. We haven't had a hurricane hit here in 5 years. Tropical Storm Fay just rained a lot and there was no panic or store stampedes as in 2004.
I'm not judging only by the three different rolls I found in my house, but by the fact that I have worked for Disney, SeaWorld, Universal Studios and Ripley's Art Dept. for the last 30 years and we used ALOT of duct tape purchased right here in Orlando. It's used in the special effect/moldmaking industry because fiberglass, foam and resins don't stick to the surface. Sometimes we cover entire pieces of plywood or cardboard with tape.
I'm glad 5 years have gone by since last hurricane hit Central Fla because many of those hard to come by logoed ones are used up & gone now. Remember, the FBI went out & purchased 82 rolls (granted, not in Orlando) at random but only 1 had the logo.

The evidence is really mounting against "fairandbalanced"

I t may pay him to check his black garbage bags for colour of ties?

Also art supplies such as heart stickers.

And, oh, does he/she have an alibi for around 16th June?

 

[FX Wiz]

LOL