The GB4 and Shannan Gilbert-Connecting the dots

[Spice]

Hi All.

Just a quick thought/question put forth for your feedback. I just finished Kolker's book Lost Girls and something stood out to me. It is well known in OB that The Dr is largely considered a blowhard, exaggerator, and most importantly known to be a sort of "wannabe" cop. He tends to "show up" and inject himself in any real or perceived emergency within the community, hoping to be a "savior' and craving the attention that comes along with it. He then generally exaggerates his involvement and actions after the fact, pumping himself up to look like a hero. These behaviors are heavily documented in Lost Girls.

To support the above points, In the book, a neighbor mentions that a person once tried to commit suicide and attempted to or threatened to jump off a bridge in the area. The neighbor states that the DR was there before anyone else, responding to the emergency before anyone really knew about it. He went on to say that it was almost as if The DR had been listening to the police scanner, otherwise he should have had no idea about what was going on.

My question is this:

Shannan called 911. Do you think The DR had been listening to the scanner? And got to Shannan before anyone else could save/ help her?

Add that thought to his phone call to Mari (that he lied about for over a year) where he states that he "helped" Shannan by sedating her and that she left the next day with a "driver."

Shannan differs from the other victims because she ended up in Oak Beach by being driven there, instead of being picked up by the SK on an expensive offer of an outcall. Yet her dead body is found behind this guys house and mere feet from the LISKS four other victims. Could it be that Shannan just happened to end up in the community where the killer lived? Did he just capitalize on the opportunity? It is a very close knit and small community...he had to know that JB often hosted escorts and had parties. I know the odds are sky high but maybe he was listening to his scanner and this time.....his prey ended up being right outside his door.

Stranger things have happened.

Just a thought.

 

[LindsayLohan6]

Well the whole thing is that Shannan knew someone was trying to killer her from inside the john's home. So she became aware of the imminent threat to her life either from someone inside JB's home (Jb, Drifter, whoever else was there) or on the 15 minute ride Shannan and JB went on.

 

[hawkshaw]

maybe they went for the ride because JB wanted to kill her so as not to lug a dead body around?

 

[Just K]

We don't know for sure that MBB, MB, MW or ALC did not leave with or were not waiting to be picked up by a "driver" who worked in the same capacity as MP.

 

[Spice]

Amber meets the john"on the corner" near a convenience store and has DS walk her there. She is offered a 1500 dollar overnight and doesnt bring her phone. DS states she breaks every rule she had for the call and that everything she did was "different". She does not regularly use a driver at all. DS is her protection.

Megan: calls and tells a friend Vybe is "out" and it seems they were in an argument. She states she is going to bed. She then posts an ad a little after midnight. She speaks to Vybe at 1:28 and is then seen leaving the hotel. She is seen walking to a nearby convenience store. She too leaves her hotel and is never seen again. Like Maureen, none of her stuff is left behind at the hotel. (Going on an overnight like Amber?) Megan is not known to ever have used a driver.

Melissa: Is last seen in the Bronx on Underhill avenue. Phone records confirm that she calls Blaze for under one minute, the call may have gone to VM. Blaze states that he knew that Melissa had lined up another 1,000 dollar date the next night on Long Island. He knew of the place and the john but Melissa was working on her own. He offered her a ride and she declined. Her phone's voicemail was accessed the night of her disappearance pinging off of a cell tower in Massapequa LI. (it is very easy to get to LI from NYC via Penn Station if a girl did not want to hire a driver and share the money). You don't need a car here. You can get anywhere as long as you have transportation on the other side. Melissa is not known to have ever used a driver.

Maureen On Monday Maureens friend Sara, also an escort, leaves to go back to CT. Maureen delclines and states she will stay in NYC and wait for Sara to come back on Wednesday. She is apparently robbed sometime that day, and "gets her money back" (according to her sister) maybe from working the rest of the day. Later Monday night,she calls home for a ride at 11:30 pm from Penn Station. She states that she will take the" next train" home which likely would have been the 2:30 A.M. Amtrak from Penn to Groton/New London. (If monday schedules are similar today as they were then). She never gets on the train and according to Hotel Records she checks out on Tuesday.(after midnight or next morning?) She is never seen again. Maureen is not known to have ever used a driver.

( I am a long time New Yorker) Penn Station is where one takes the LIRR to Jones Beach, Babylon, and Fire Island from Manhattan.


Shannan is the only one that we know of that used a driver at all and had recently struck out on her own to work independently. Pak was her new "partner". Her appointment with JB in OB was for two hours. JB and Shannan leave the house to run an errand. Shannan clears the trip with MP. Upon return, Shannan calls MP and asks him to go to CVS and pick up some lubricant and stuff. MP refuses as its too far away. Shannan snaps at him and states "Forget it, I'll find my own way home. After 3 hours JB comes out stating Shannan will not "leave". MP finds her terrified, repeating that "you guys are trying to kill me." "Ill find my own way home" Shannan calls 911 while still in the house with JB and MP. MP leaves. JB goes back inside...Shannan runs down the steps terrified. We all know the rest.


Obviously we cannot know for sure, but it would appear that Melissa, Amber, and Maureen were all were lured out somehow or made a monetary offer they couldn't refuse or both. There is no evidence at all that the 3 of them used a driver. Shannan is the only one that was known to do so.

Amber's protection was DS, who walked her to the corner near the store where she was going to meet the John. She was offered overnight money.

Melissa was going to Long Island on a 1,000 dollar call (usually an overnight according to their pricing) she refuses a ride from her normal protection, Blaze.

Megan is away from "Vybe" her pimp and they were known to be fighting. She posts an ad a little after Midnight. She calls a friend stating she was going to bed. She too then leaves the hotel 1.5 hours later and walks to a convenience store near her isolated hotel off the interstate. A "hired driver" wouldn't make her walk to the store. What would be the point of that?

Shannan, who always had used a driver, always, is driven to the very place where the other 4 girls bodies are found. She is found in a Marsh behind the doctors house mere feet from them with her pants removed after being visibly terrified and shaken, running around asking for help claiming "they" were trying to kill her. She ignores her driver and seems to run from him as well, and he is her only source of safety or protection. (supposedly).

Shannan is the ONLY one who differs in how she got to OB . But it is impossible to ignore, that she like Megan, Melissa, Amber, and Maureen ended up dead there along with the other four. What are the odds of that? Was she easy prey for the SK who may be a resident? Was the DR listening to the scanner , heard her 23 minute phone call and took his opportunity and went and hunted her down? If JB was trying to kill her alone, why go outside and get her driver asking for assistance? Obviously something occurred that terrified her. She was afraid of BOTH of them. Pak and JB. I just believe that whoever the SK is he is or was a resident of OB. It may be JB, it may be The DR, or it may be someone else entirely within the community. Who knows. But the fact that Shannan never made it out of OB alive that night tell us that is where he lives or he was there. Period. I do NOT believe for a second she died "accidentally". Its ridiculous in light of all the other facts....4 dead women who worked as escorts to be exact.

Shannan's outcall occurred differently, but the result was ultimately the same.

Similarities are:

They are ALL out calls. 2 of the 4, Amber (outcall) and Megan (likely an outcall) walk to a convenience store and takes all of her stuff from her room (overnight?). Melissa had a standing outcall appt in Long Island the next day. Shannan had a standing call in Oak Beach Long Island. Only Maureen and Megan don't seem to have an outstanding calls that people knew about.

However, Maureen calls home from Penn Station, where she would have taken the next train home to CT, it is ALSO where a person would take the LIRR to and from Babylon from NYC. Her phone later pings in Babylon after her disappearance. Shannan is driven to OB on an outcall and becomes terrified and is found dead in the Marsh mere feet from the other 4 girls bodies.

Amber was offered a 1500 dollar call and a confirmed overnight. Melissa was going on a 1,000 dollar call. Shannan is on a 2 hour call that turned into 3. We know nothing about the calls to Megan and Maureen.

2 of the four walk to a convenience store to meet a john. (Amber and Megan). 2 have a standing appointment in Long Island (Shannan and Melissa) and One is last heard from at Penn Station (Maureen).

Melissa's phone pings in Massapequa and her VM is accessed. Maureen's phone pings in Fire Island (Babylon) and her VM is too accessed. Melissa's little sister is tormented on the phone by the killer for over a month. 2 of the calls are coming from Times Square and Madison Square Garden, all in midtown, all near Penn Station VERY close to Penn Station. Madison Square Garden literally sits on top of it.

:moo:

 

[Just K]

There has been no proof that any of the GB4 did not use drivers. There is a photo of MB in what looks like she is sitting in the back of a limo. The livery cars are black.

ALC, DS walked outside, but he did not escort her to the car she got into. JB, called MP, the driver, to get him to bring SG out to Oak Beach.

There is no proof that ALC, MBB, MW, and MB did not go out to meet a waiting driver, who had been called by the man the girls thought was a John, after he talked the girls into meeting him. If we knew for sure that each met directly with the killer and that the killer is the one who picked them up, this case would be solved by now.

 

[LindsayLohan6]

Amber walked to a convenience store? I don't remember this....Amber lived in a residential area where there are not alot of convenient stores

 

[Spice]

There has been no proof that any of the GB4 did not use drivers. There is a photo of MB in what looks like she is sitting in the back of a limo. The livery cars are black.

ALC, DS walked outside, but he did not escort her to the car she got into. JB, called MP, the driver, to get him to bring SG out to Oak Beach.

There is no proof that ALC, MBB, MW, and MB did not go out to meet a waiting driver, who had been called by the man the girls thought was a John, after he talked the girls into meeting him. If we knew for sure that each met directly with the killer and that the killer is the one who picked them up, this case would be solved by now.

And other than Shannan, this is no proof whatsoever that the others did. use a driver. It's an assumption. I am only trying to give you insight as a New Yorker as to why that would be inconvenient and inefficient. They rented rooms to do in calls, they spent money on that for a reason and SOME were centrally located in Times Square, also for a reason. Shannan lived in Jersey. It would make total sense that she used a driver. NYC girls are dealing with a different animal entirely, a different city, one that never sleeps and has the most comprehensive public transportation system in the world. Driving is a luxury and an inconvenience here for a reason. :moo: It is largely stated in the book that the girls that worked in the city...their protection stood nearby to whereever the call was. Not in the room, but outside in a cafe etc. There is NO need for a driver when you are working out of a hotel in the city. For out calls sure, but they could still get where they needed to go through public transportation until very late hours of the night, as long as someone was waiting for them on the other side.

Shannan used a driver regularly. Amber mostly worked out of her home with DS until that night. Melissa was in the BX, worked with Blaze but had recently struck out on her own. . Maureen worked out of times square. And Megan had "Vybe" and was trafficked by him and didn't seem centralized anywhere really but did tend to work in LI. They had a fight that night as well according to Kolker's book. She posted an ad and walked to a convenience store, just like Amber.

I'm not claiming that its not possible. I'm just giving you my opinion from all I have read and from being a resident here and being very familiar with the logistics of both NYC and LI and traveling to and from there.

 

[Just K]

ALC did do out calls because on one such call she was left beaten by the side of the road. It was not long after the CCC and Morrie left messages on UG or LIErotica. MB definitely did outcalls, per JohnnyT,...meaning she did not always work out of a home, a brothel (that we know of) or cheap hotels.
And it is important to remember that JT lived with his main girl and did not share the apartment with MB and her cats. MBB was said to go out to LI, iirc, for her photo shoots and to see clients. Someone probably drove her to and from the sites or at least the train station. IMO.

 

[LindsayLohan6]

A She posted an ad and walked to a convenience store, just like Amber.
.

Again, I don't think this is accurate.

 

[LindsayLohan6]

On Sept. 2, Costello abandoned that precaution and left her West Babylon home in a client's vehicle, they said. She took nothing with her -- no cellphone or purse -- and told no one where she was going

The last night she was seen alive, Costello had two lengthy conversations with a man who answered her Craigslist Long Island ad, said her roommate, David Schaller. She agreed to meet him in a car parked around the corner, Schaller said. The client would pay $450 for two hours or $1,500 if she spent the night with him.

But the man set conditions: She was to bring nothing and tell no one where she went.

Schaller told her not to go.

"You can't do this," he said he told her. "At least take a phone so you can call me if something happens."

Costello refused, he said. "That's not what he wants," Schaller remembers her saying. "She said it was big money."

It's unclear why, but "something made her trust him," recalled Schaller, who said his cellphone was used for the conversation and that he overheard parts of it. "It was like she knew him."

http://www.newsday.com/long-island/serial-killer/did-gilgo-victims-let-their-guards-down-1.2950472

 

[Just K]

There is no sighting of MW after she is seen on the Hotel's CC video. There is no indication on that tape or anywhere that she went toward the convenience store only the direction she was walking when last video taped.
It is only an assumption or theory that she intended to walk to the convenience store. She may have turned the corner to get into a waiting car in the same way that ALC did. That guy didn't pull up to her house just like no one seems to have pulled up to the exit/entrance of the Hauppuage hotel.

 

[LindsayLohan6]

On June 4, Waterman called Haycock with some news: Cruz wanted her to have his child and she would no longer have to work as a prostitute. "I never heard her as happy as she was that day," Haycock said.
A law enforcement source said she had arranged a date without Cruz's knowledge and met the man in his car.

Maybe Megan was seeing Robert Blake "behind Cruz's back".

 

[LindsayLohan6]

On Sept. 2, Costello abandoned that precaution and left her West Babylon home in a client's vehicle, they said. She took nothing with her -- no cellphone or purse -- and told no one where she was going

The last night she was seen alive, Costello had two lengthy conversations with a man who answered her Craigslist Long Island ad, said her roommate, David Schaller. She agreed to meet him in a car parked around the corner, Schaller said. The client would pay $450 for two hours or $1,500 if she spent the night with him.

But the man set conditions: She was to bring nothing and tell no one where she went.

Schaller told her not to go.

"You can't do this," he said he told her. "At least take a phone so you can call me if something happens."

Costello refused, he said. "That's not what he wants," Schaller remembers her saying. "She said it was big money."

It's unclear why, but "something made her trust him," recalled Schaller, who said his cellphone was used for the conversation and that he overheard parts of it. "It was like she knew him."

http://www.newsday.com/long-island/serial-killer/did-gilgo-victims-let-their-guards-down-1.2950472

I bet Dave S remembers some key parts of the conversation. I bet Dave S also caught a good look at the killer's vehicle and perhaps even got a look at the killer. They say he was "too high" to remember the make or model of the car, but i bet he was instructed by LE to say this. If Amber had too lenghty conversations with the guy, Dave probably overheard alot more than he's been letting on. What make DS think Amber knew him, something she said? If he was right there...he overheard. I dont think a seasoned heroin addict like DS would be "too high" to remember the car. When your a heroin addict, you don't get high, you only get normal or sick. I bet LE knows the make and model and DS even if he did catch a glimpse might be able to ID the killer.

 

[Emre E]

There is no sighting of MW after she is seen on the Hotel's CC video. There is no indication on that tape or anywhere that she went toward the convenience store only the direction she was walking when last video taped.
It is only an assumption or theory that she intended to walk to the convenience store. She may have turned the corner to get into a waiting car in the same way that ALC did. That guy didn't pull up to her house just like no one seems to have pulled up to the exit/entrance of the Hauppuage hotel.

Watch the A&E show. L. Ela says she was going to the concession store. It's on Youtube. You may say Ela is relaying what she heard, you are right there.

 

[Tugela]

There has been no proof that any of the GB4 did not use drivers. There is a photo of MB in what looks like she is sitting in the back of a limo. The livery cars are black.

ALC, DS walked outside, but he did not escort her to the car she got into. JB, called MP, the driver, to get him to bring SG out to Oak Beach.

There is no proof that ALC, MBB, MW, and MB did not go out to meet a waiting driver, who had been called by the man the girls thought was a John, after he talked the girls into meeting him. If we knew for sure that each met directly with the killer and that the killer is the one who picked them up, this case would be solved by now.

If they were using a driver the case would have been solved by now. If a driver took a girl to a client, and she didn't come out again, the driver would not just shrug and leave, he would go looking for her because otherwise he wouldn't be paid. For an example of that, look at SG. While she wasn't found, her driver spent a good deal of effort looking for her. I think it safe to say that none of the murdered women were using security at the time they were killed. Just because they had at one point does not mean they always did. My guess is that they were either freelancing or taking their own calls, and made them very vulnerable due to the legal situation which forced them to operate in secret.

 

[LindsayLohan6]

Anyone remember inspectrgadgets original POI? I'm sure remember truthspider's find of Hackett's wrongful death lawsuit. Well i think it's time to go back to gadget's OG poi. here's a lawsuit where he's the defendant in a wrongful death case:

http://decisions.courts.state.ny.us...s/index/index_new/davis/2008jan/010209-05.pdf

Because of the body with severe scoliosis, FI legs with surgical scars, surgical staples on John Doe 2000, etc etc this guy deserves a good hard look. From what fluke claimed on lisk.com, he dipped out from OB shortly after the events of May 1.

 

[LindsayLohan6]

Go back to where Shannan was last: Anchor Way.
(i wish we had gadget back)

"Gilbert ran around the corner, Coletti said, and headed past the gate, which is the only well-lit area in the neighborhood. Instead of running out of the community and toward Ocean Parkway, she turned onto a road called Anchor Way, which led her past the group mailboxes and deeper into the neighborhood, toward the water.

The last known trace of Gilbert was a 911 call from a home at the end of Anchor Way, according to the neighbor briefed on the investigation. The neighbor said Gilbert’s sweater — or perhaps it was the jacket Diaz saw her wearing when she left — was found along that road."
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/06/jersey_city_prostitute_still_m.html

 

[Just K]

If they were using a driver the case would have been solved by now. If a driver took a girl to a client, and she didn't come out again, the driver would not just shrug and leave, he would go looking for her because otherwise he wouldn't be paid. For an example of that, look at SG. While she wasn't found, her driver spent a good deal of effort looking for her. I think it safe to say that none of the murdered women were using security at the time they were killed. Just because they had at one point does not mean they always did. My guess is that they were either freelancing or taking their own calls, and made them very vulnerable due to the legal situation which forced them to operate in secret.

My point is that the driver may have been called directly, like MP. Or that the "john" sent a driver of his choice. Telling the girls what type of car would be picking her up. My point is that the driver was directed to pick up the victims and was paid to deliver them to the killer. In essence, I am suggesting that the driver was working for the killer not the women.

 

[Emre E]

Anyone remember inspectrgadgets original POI? I'm sure remember truthspider's find of Hackett's wrongful death lawsuit. Well i think it's time to go back to gadget's OG poi. here's a lawsuit where he's the defendant in a wrongful death case:

http://decisions.courts.state.ny.us...s/index/index_new/davis/2008jan/010209-05.pdf

Because of the body with severe scoliosis, FI legs with surgical scars, surgical staples on John Doe 2000, etc etc this guy deserves a good hard look. From what fluke claimed on lisk.com, he dipped out from OB shortly after the events of May 1.

John Doe 2000 you mean Steel Rod Guy? That is found Dec 24 1999. Sorry, maybe I put some wrong information
http://www.doenetwork.org/hot/hotcase1947.html

"Black denim pants, black Nike sneakers"

Now this info tells me that he's not much impaired in his life, maybe trying to keep up with the rhythm of the life. That takes me to the "chiro place" again. Maybe he was getting maintenance treatment there (or a similar place), or for a check up perhaps. And he may be gay wearing bikini underpants. I can bet he's a regular chiro patient living alone who started missing his appointments sometime in autumn 99.