The GB4 and Shannan Gilbert-Connecting the dots

[hawkshaw]

I agree, Dormer would not address the burlap other than to say they were "wrapped". I'm reviewing Kolker's book again - I have the Kindle version - at the end of BOOK I he is discussing John Mallia the canine officer who found the remains with his dog "Blue". Kolker writes about Mallia and Blue finding something and then Mallia "noticed the burlap - and the skeleton".

I would love to know if Kolker actually interviewed Mallia...

The "skeleton":
According to Dormer Melissa was the first one found. In the arrow security videos he says her "features were identifiable". No mention of her being skeletonized. I'm confused!

Someone mentioned in another post that Vernon Geberth may have given his opinion to enhance his book sales. Dormer is a VP for Arrow Security and agreed to do an interview for something he learned from being the police commissioner when the bodies were found. Not that he really knew anything because I doubt if the detectives or Spota told him anything...

 

[hawkshaw]

The closest thing Dormer has to being a cop is his Irish brogue.

 

[twocuriouscats]

The question is did he make this statement before or after lunch.

Sorry, I just don't see Dormer as the bad guy. Spota - yes. Burke - yes. Of course the real bad guy is LISK.

 

[twocuriouscats]

The closest thing Dormer has to being a cop is his Irish brogue.

I'm Irish. Easy Hawk.

 

[fred&edna]

I think a lot of what Dormer says is confusing (but it's not because of the Irish brogue), and I find it difficult to watch these videos. He doesn't want to say too much... it's obvious he is worried he might release the wrong information.

My problems with Dormer began during the 48 Hours interview when he explains the SG drowning theory (and her pants falling off) long before her body was found.

 

[Robert Anderson]

Someone mentioned in another post that Vernon Geberth may have given his opinion to enhance his book sales.

They are textbooks but yes, that is a factor. Doesn't mean his opinion is not worth listening to, just that you are not going to hear experts weigh in with non-controversial points of view. Makes for poor press. Who cares if someone thinks LE did a good job?

https://www.amazon.com/Vernon-J.-Geberth/e/B001HP0M32

 

[twocuriouscats]

I think a lot of what Dormer says is confusing (but it's not because of the Irish brogue), and I find it difficult to watch these videos. He doesn't want to say too much... it's obvious he is worried he might release the wrong information.

My problems with Dormer began during the 48 Hours interview when he explains the SG drowning theory (and her pants falling off) long before her body was found.

I find myself viewing them again and they are very revealing actually. I agree that they try not to say too much but there is really a lot of information in the videos. I'll have to review the 48 hours interview - did he really say her pants came off? That's crazy! Tx!

 

[fred&edna]

I find myself viewing them again and they are very revealing actually. I agree that they try not to say too much but there is really a lot of information in the videos. I'll have to review the 48 hours interview - did he really say her pants came off? That's crazy! Tx!

Yeah, he said something mighty close to that... her pants just came off.

It's the episode that aired July 12, 2011, and I shared a link in post #651 but it as already been removed from youtube. And, sadly I can't seem to find it again, anywhere. It seems the all of the 48 Hour Mystery episodes related to LISK are available to watch EXCEPT this one :maddening:

 

[deedee21]

Yeah, he said something mighty close to that... her pants just came off.

It's the episode that aired July 12, 2011, and I shared a link in post #651 but it as already been removed from youtube. And, sadly I can't seem to find it again, anywhere. It seems the all of the 48 Hour Mystery episodes related to LISK are available to watch EXCEPT this one :maddening:

It must if been a later episode. Shannans remains were found Dec 2011. 48 hrs did a few shows. They combined old info with updates.

 

[hawkshaw]

I think a lot of what Dormer says is confusing (but it's not because of the Irish brogue), and I find it difficult to watch these videos. He doesn't want to say too much... it's obvious he is worried he might release the wrong information.

My problems with Dormer began during the 48 Hours interview when he explains the SG drowning theory (and her pants falling off) long before her body was found.

I think they call what Dormer did was dishing the BLARNEY. The dummy did the Arrow Security/YouTube videos while he as a V.P. of that company. In essence, he is promoting himself and the company he works for.

He HAD NO business talking about the biggest case he was the PC for on what is really a commercial enterprise. I doubt if he could have done much harm because I doubt if the investigators told him anything of value. .....I don't think Spota would have allowed.

 

[fred&edna]

It must if been a later episode. Shannans remains were found Dec 2011. 48 hrs did a few shows. They combined old info with updates.

You are correct. I'm wrong on the date. I just can't find that particular episode.

Here's a "preview" for June 2012 episode, and starting about 1:15... there is Dormer.

When asked why her clothes were found 1/4 mile away, he says "Ya know that's explainable because she's hysterical and she's discarding her possessions as she moves along." Moriarty queries, "But her clothes?" Dormer says, "Well, her jeans could've come off from running in that environment."

Maybe this is the only quote he gives us for her clothes.

(This link includes comments from John Ray... and the episode I'm looking for doesn't have JR)

https://youtu.be/qAJf4RgNbpU

 

[fred&edna]

We really need to see these depositions. None of you "locals" able to help??

 

[deedee21]

Flukeyou told Mari where Shannans body could be found????? Did Mari DEMAND to know how he knew Shannans body was in the marsh? Did LE ask him where he got his information from? Can someone please tell me why Dr Hackett is being sued?

 

[hawkshaw]

I'm Irish. Easy Hawk.

I meant that in an affectionate way, not a knock on the Irish. During my time in the NYPD, especially the earlier years the Irish dominated the PD. many of them still had strong Irish brogues. BTW it might interest you to know James Burke probably had more Italian blood coursing through his black heart than he had Irish blood.

 

[hawkshaw]

Let me tell you why I know Dormer is not only a ‘bad guy’, but a spineless idiot, as well:
On 11/13/03, my former son in law was still and active member of the SCPD. On that same date Jim Burke’s neighbor, a notorious criminal gave SCPD detectives information that my SIL did an armed robbery with him and others. He would go on to give the SCPD more information about other crimes he allegedly committed.
The above information had never been placed in the SIL’s personnel folder, and IAB, Dormer’s agency didn’t have a clue this cop committed high crimes. Or someone was accusing him of such.
On 3/15/05, the SIL was allowed to retire and issued his pistol carry permits. At that time he still wasn’t investigated by IAB. He was also allowed to receive his shield with “RETIRED’ across the face of it.
Shortly, thereafter, the SIL received from Dormer a ‘Good Guy’ letter thanking him for his loyal and dedicated service to the People of Suffolk County.
Contrast that to what happened to Burke. Two weeks before he was indicted and arrested by the FBI, Burke applied for his pistol permit and it was REJECTED.
Another main player in the framing of my SIL, I have been told has already been arrested by the FBI. The FEDS are waiting to make more arrests, probably more important players and will probably spring it on us in the coming months. He will be joined by others that have been involved in the Loeb arrest.
By now you folks know where I am coming from and you know my agenda. I want these people punished for all the wrong that they have done to my SIL’s family, and all the wrong they have done to others.
THEY ARE LIARS AND CRIMINALS. These are some of the people that have been investigation the LISK case, and I have always said they are covering something up. Can you trust them, and that includes the DA to do an honest and thorough investigation?
This is why I call Dormer a cowardly idiot. He allowed Spota and his small gang of hoodlums to frame my SIL when all the FACTS and actions of the DA led to a false and malicious arrest. He stood by and did NOTHING!

Dormer was just too damned afraid to open his mouth and stop this dishonoring of the PD that he led. He didn't even know the SIL was accused of being a major criminal, otherwise, he never would have allowed him to receive his pistol permits and write a 'good guy' letter to him when he separated from the Service, with his pension ( he had 11 years ) because the CLOWN was never told.

 

[hawkshaw]

Maybe there is truth to the story Dormer contributed $10,000.00 to Steve Levy's campaign and that is how he was given the job of PC.

 

[White_Rabbit]

I have been researching this case for months, and have carefully read through all the possible documentation I could find online, including newspaper and magazine articles, documentary’s, radio shows and of course Websleuths. In my mind I cannot definitively link the death of Shannan Gilbert to the Gilgo Beach 4. In my mind I also cannot link any of the other remains found along Ocean Parkway to either the Gilgo Beach 4 or Shannan Gilbert. For purposes of this post I will only focus on the Gilgo Beach 4 and Shannan Gilbert.

Let’s remember that we do not have access to all of the evidence that law enforcement has, i.e. Shannan Gilbert’s 911 call, affidavits of witnesses and persons of interest, or forensic evidence.

Let’s look at what we have available to us:

I. The Victims

a. They were all in their early to mid 20s.
b. They all had troubled pasts.
c. They all used illegal drugs.
d. They were all from the east coast.
e. They were all escorts.
f. They all advertised on Craigslist.
g. They were all strangled. *

* World Renowned Forensics Expert Dr. Michael Baden concluded Shannan Gilbert was murdered by strangulation *

h. They were all found just off the shoulder of Ocean Parkway.


II. Persons of Interest

a. Joseph Brewer

1. I do not believe Joseph Brewer is LISK, but he did have a motive to murder Shannan Gilbert.

2. I believe Joseph Brewer is not being entirely forthcoming about what occurred in his house that night. I believe he is afraid of what charges may be held against him for soliciting a prostitute, possession of illegal drugs, providing illegal drugs to another person with or without their knowledge or consent, and consequently being implicated in the disappearance and subsequent murder of Shannan Gilbert. I believe he may also be afraid of being exposed as a solicitor of prostitution and use of illegal drugs. Though separated he still has a wife and children, as well as a reputation.

3. I believe someone or something in Joseph Brewers house caused Shannan Gilbert to have a Panic/Anxiety attack whether or not this attack was exacerbated by illegal drugs or bi-polar disorder.


b. Michael Pak

1. I do not believe Michael Pak is LISK, or that he murdered Shannan Gilbert, but I do believe by leaving Oak Beach without her he was negligent in her death.

2. I do not believe Michael Pak is being entirely forthcoming about what occurred that night. I believe he is afraid of what charges may be held against him for conspiracy to solicit prostitution, and that he may be implicated in the disappearance and subsequent murder of Shannan Gilbert.

c. Peter Hackett

1. I do not believe Peter Hackett is LISK, or that he murdered Shannan Gilbert. I believe he may have been in contact with Shannan Gilbert due to the proximity of his house to Barbara Brennan’s house. He may have had similar contact to Shannan Gilbert as Gus Colletti. He may have tried to calm her down and she ran off into the Marsh behind his house.

2. I believe Peter Hackett is not being entirely forthcoming about the events of that night.

3. Peter Hackett did call Mari Gilbert on May 3, 2010 at 1:42 PM according to Mari Gilbert’s phone records. This was after Alex Diaz and Michael Pak returned to Oak Beach which was two days after Shannan Gilbert’s disappearance. I believe he said exactly what Mari Gilbert reported he said. I believe he denied the calls afterward for fear of charges being held against him for providing unsanctioned medical care to her and possibly being implicated in her disappearance and subsequent murder.



d. “The Drifter”

1. It is possible that the drifter that was inside Joseph Brewers house may have participated in the events that led to Shannan Gilbert’s Panic/Anxiety attack, and her disappearance and subsequent murder. It is also possible that he may also be Unsub. More information is needed regarding the Drifter.


e. Unsub

1. Unsub is responsible for the murders of the Gilgo Beach 4.

2. It would be highly coincidental that Unsub was in the exact location of Shannan Gilbert on the night in question, but not out of the realm of possibility considering his fixation with Ocean Parkway, or if the Drifter and Unsub are the same person.


III. My psychological profile of Unsub partially based on the FBI profile:


a. He is a white male in his mid-30s to mid-40s.

b. He is financially secure.

c. He lives or used to live on or near Ocean Parkway on the South Shore of Long Island

d. He may have had a domineering mother.

e. He is very charming and attractive to women of the victims age group.

f. He has an explosive temper and a history of violent episodes.

g. He may suffer from limerence and have a history of heartbreaking relationships with women.

h. He has a history of drug abuse.

i. He may have relatives or close friends who are in law enforcement.

j. He was familiar to Megan Waterman and Amber Lynn Costello prior to the night he murdered them.

These are my opinions based on all of the information that I was able to review. I would very much like to discuss any of these opinions with the forum and hopefully together we can help to identify the person or persons responsible, and maybe help to provide justice for the victims and closure for their loved ones.

 

[LR1]

Welcome White Rabbit. We're miles apart me and you but I appreciate your effort. Here's where I stand on a few things without getting into the reasoning again. I could be totally wrong but here's a few thoughts.

High degree of confidence that MBB, MB, MW, AC, JT and the Manorville Jane doe were killed by the same person. Good probability Asian male also because of placement and time frame he was thought killed.

I would give it a 60/40 chance The remaining 3 bodies, Peaches, child and the 1996 jane doe found on ocean parkway were also his.

SG not a murder victim. There are no dots to connect. Baden said the evidence was consistent with homicidal strangulation, but insufficient to release an official cause of death, which basically tells us nothing. No reason to believe killer lived on the parkway.

Most likely killer's a White guy. Assuming he did 96-97, I would guess he's in his 50's at this point. Lives to this day on LI.

Having a hard time seeing Bittrolff in Manhattan procuring victims i.e. JT and MBB as well as making taunting calls but otherwise he's still in play as a possibility and probably the best POI to date.

 

[White_Rabbit]

Welcome White Rabbit. We're miles apart me and you but I appreciate your effort. Here's where I stand on a few things without getting into the reasoning again. I could be totally wrong but here's a few thoughts.

High degree of confidence that MBB, MB, MW, AC, JT and the Manorville Jane doe were killed by the same person. Good probability Asian male also because of placement and time frame he was thought killed.

I would give it a 60/40 chance The remaining 3 bodies, Peaches, child and the 1996 jane doe found on ocean parkway were also his.

SG not a murder victim. There are no dots to connect. Baden said the evidence was consistent with homicidal strangulation, but insufficient to release an official cause of death, which basically tells us nothing. No reason to believe killer lived on the parkway.

Most likely killer's a White guy. Assuming he did 96-97, I would guess he's in his 50's at this point. Lives to this day on LI.

Having a hard time seeing Bittrolff in Manhattan procuring victims i.e. JT and MBB as well as making taunting calls but otherwise he's still in play as a possibility and probably the best POI to date.

Thank you for replying to me with this theory. I didn’t know that Dr. Michael Baden attached the caveat of the results being insufficient to determine cause of death in the case of Shannan Gilbert. Therefore I can agree that there is a possibility that she may not be a murder victim. However, due to the fact that her personal belongings, most significantly her jeans, were found in a different area, and the fact that a person of interest, Joeseph Brewer, had a motive, I still believe that foul play may be involved in her death.

Regarding the Gilgo Beach 4 and the other unidentified bodies. I believe these murders were committed by different people. I belive the Gilgo Beach 4 were murdered by Unsub, whose psychological profile I documented in my original post. The time frame matches and the modus operandi is identical. The others, including Asian Male, I believe were murdered at a much earlier time, with a different modus operandi, (dismemberment), and by a different psychological profile with certain similarities. The case of Asian Male seems to be a different situation than the rest. Asian Male was not strangled but was murdered by blunt force trauma to the head. My theory regarding Asian Male is that he met the killer of the unidentified persons, peaches and Jessica Taylor, and when the killer discovered that he was transvestite, he was enraged and beat him to death. I’ve touched lightly on the reports of John Bittrolf and believe that he could be the one responsible for the murders of the unidentified bodies, peaches and Jessica Taylor, but I will need more analysis.

Regarding the Gilgo Beach 4 many people have stated that the reason they were wrapped in burlap is because of Unsubs access to the material. I can agree that he may have had access to the material, but why would he choose it over something more common than plastic garbage bags. The significance of the burlap to me is that it is symbolic and somewhat ritualistic on the part of Unsub. Burlap in the Bible is symbolic of mourning and repentance. Perhaps Unsub believed that he was somehow saving these girls. Take that with the significance of the phone calls to Amanda Barthelemy. Those who I have discussed this with state that they believe the phone calls were a form of sexual sadism, but maybe Unsub was trying to scare Amanda away from a life of prostitution. I’m going to begin researching John Bittrolf at this point, please share with me any significant information regarding him.

 

[BeachBods]

I agree there no dots here to connect shannon to any od the other bodies. Bittleroff is a working blue collar guy with ties only alleged to being a simple handyman to rich and elite of Oak Beach. To even assume bittleroff as an attendee of any oak beach parties is laughable. The rich and elite of Oak Beach actually mingling with the help at there secretive drug and hooker filled parties is highly unlikely. He has no actual significance to the location of the mass graves.