The Importance of the Pineapple

[icedtea4me]

Let's see... A young boy who is about to go to bed decides that, instead of milk or water, he'll have a tall glass of a hot and, most likely, caffeinated beverage in a container he wouldn't even be able to physically handle due to it being too hot once taken out of the microwave. Yep. Sounds logical.

 

[Anti-K]

According to what Patsy told Tom Haney, the table was cleaned by the time they left for the Whites'. Neither the glass nor the bowl could've been sitting on the table for more than a few hours before JBR was killed (since we agree the pineapple was most likely eaten after she arrived home). If one or both of the items were put onto the table after PR cleaned the table and before the Rs left for the Whites', and if neither of the items have anything to do with the crime, why hasn't anyone stepped forward and said, "Hey, I was in the dining room at [place time/date here] and may have placed the glass/bowl there."? Their memory couldn't possibly be that bad mere days/weeks after the murder.



Asking questions is not "picking on", so that's okay. eace:

I believe BR served the pineapple in the bowl it was found in for both he and JBR to snack on while BR made himself tea in the glass. The pineapple could've been already served in that same bowl and in the fridge to be grabbed as a quick snack. That could be why PR's fingerprints are on the bowl.

I think neither of the children cleaned up the table because: 1. Children aren't known for their cleanliness and 2. These children, specifically, were not known for their cleanliness according to LHP. JR and PR didn't clean up the "pineapple evidence" because they were unaware of any activity that took place between BR and JBR before observing JBR unconscious in the basement, other than knowing they were both in the basement. Or, they could've been so concerned about JBR, the glass and bowl clean-up escaped their minds. JMO.



If the only fingerprints found on the glass and bowl were those of JBR and someone who was known to have handled dishes in the Ramsey household, the "mountain out of a molehill" expression would fit. BR was not known to have helped with any housework, washing/drying/putting away dishes being part of that. If he had any chores including dishes or anything else, I've missed something.

If only the bowl and the glass were DNA-tested for saliva... :gaah:

I don’t recall ever seeing it said anywhere that Burke’s fingerprints were on the glass. Is this true?
.

I don’t think what Mrs Ramsey remembered, four months later, about the state of the necessarily tells us the true state of the table when they left for the White’s.

I do think that no one – whoever that one might be – remembers anything about the pineapple or bowl simply because, at the time, it was a non-event, and later – well, it was later. No one remembered.

I wasn’t really asking why wasn’t the set-up (that’s my term for pineapple/bowl/spoon/glass/etc) cleaned up, but what happened to the bowl or whatever jbr was served this too-small-to-be-a-snack in.

Do you think Burke could have touched that bowl when it was out on the table just a cpl nights before?
…

AK

 

[OliviaG1996]

Let's see... A young boy who is about to go to bed decides that, instead of milk or water, he'll have a tall glass of a hot and, most likely, caffeinated beverage in a container he wouldn't even be able to physically handle due to it being too hot once taken out of the microwave. Yep. Sounds logical.

Oh, yes. Because children never drink caffeinated drinks before bedtime. And it was impossible that BR only filled the cup halfway and held the cup by the top half. Right...

This bad attitude of yours is the opposite of endearing, by the way. I'm sure andreww and I aren't the only ones sick of it.

 

[OliviaG1996]

I don’t recall ever seeing it said anywhere that Burke’s fingerprints were on the glass. Is this true?
.

Yes. From my post #82 on this thread, the last picture from CourtTV states:

Breakfast room: #415 & #417
a. Pineapple bowl

• Patricia and Burke's fingerprints

b. Glass on the table in north dining room

• Burke Ramsey's fingerprints

I don’t think what Mrs Ramsey remembered, four months later, about the state of the necessarily tells us the true state of the table when they left for the White’s.

I do think that no one – whoever that one might be – remembers anything about the pineapple or bowl simply because, at the time, it was a non-event, and later – well, it was later. No one remembered.

IMO, everyone that had been in that house at least a day before the murder remembered close to everything they did once they found out JBR had been kidnapped/murdered. That's an event that sticks out in your memory. For example, Father Holverstock remembered heating water when JR came up from the basement with JBR. I just don't see how one can completely forget placing what could be a crucial piece of evidence, even if it was a non-event at the time, on the table unless they were questioned about it a decade or so later. Why wouldn't they have a sudden realization about it later, especially with all the coverage the "mysterious pineapple mystery" has received?

I wasn’t really asking why wasn’t the set-up (that’s my term for pineapple/bowl/spoon/glass/etc) cleaned up, but what happened to the bowl or whatever jbr was served this too-small-to-be-a-snack in.

I think I answered that, though. I think the bowl full of pineapple found on the table next to the glass was the bowl she was served, and the bowl she ate from. Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you.

Do you think Burke could have touched that bowl when it was out on the table just a cpl nights before?
…

AK

We have really no way of knowing if the bowl in the December 23rd photo was the same bowl used for the pineapple. If it was, I would expect many more fingerprints to have been found than just PR's and BR's. Also, I assume the bowl would've been washed after the party and before the 25th.

 

[icedtea4me]

Oh, yes. Because children never drink caffeinated drinks before bedtime. And it was impossible that BR only filled the cup halfway and held the cup by the top half. Right...

This bad attitude of yours is the opposite of endearing, by the way. I'm sure andreww and I aren't the only ones sick of it.

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k243/crs97/internet memes/2bY9hT4.jpg

 

[Annapurna]

Hey icedtea4me, perhaps the tea in the glass was iced tea! Wouldn't be hot. I actually do find it more likely that someone set their teabag in there though. Most american kids wouldn't drink plain tea, I know I had lots of milk and sugar in my (hot) tea when I was young.

The pineapple really is one of the strangest clues in this case. It throws a wrench in everyone's theory; RDI, IDI,JDI whoever.

I wish the coroner hadn't done such a sloppy job on scene. If we knew a more exact time of death it would probably help explain this.

 

[UKGuy]

Hey icedtea4me, perhaps the tea in the glass was iced tea! Wouldn't be hot. I actually do find it more likely that someone set their teabag in there though. Most american kids wouldn't drink plain tea, I know I had lots of milk and sugar in my (hot) tea when I was young.

The pineapple really is one of the strangest clues in this case. It throws a wrench in everyone's theory; RDI, IDI,JDI whoever.

I wish the coroner hadn't done such a sloppy job on scene. If we knew a more exact time of death it would probably help explain this.

The pineapple found in JonBenet's stomach is identical to that left in the bowl in the breakfast bar, down to the rind!

It was the last thing she ate since it was at the top of her digestive tract with everything else she ate that day preceding it, already or partially digested.


BR's fingerprints are on both the glass and the bowl, PR's is only on the bowl this places them both in the breakfast bar after arriving back from the White's.

The glass may simply have been used to deposit a used tea-bag, allowing the tea to be drunk from some other mug or cup?

BR's touch-dna is to be found on the pink barbie nightgown dumped in the wine-cellar, this along with PR's fibers on the ligature-garrote and JR's fibers left in JonBenet's size-12 underwear, link all three R's to the wine-cellar crime-scene, no ifs and no buts!

IMO the pineapple evidence tell us that the R's either never knew about the pineapple snack or forgot it happened, otherwise they would have factored it into their version of events.

Similar might be argued regarding the size-12's, e.g. PR never knew JonBenet was wearing them, hence her legend about JonBenet wanting outsized underwear despite the R's being millionares and having a credit account with Bloomingdales, PR could have simply phoned Bloomingdales and asked for JonBenet's correct size to be home delivered ASAP!

Kolar said in an Tricia interview he thought JonBenet's assault started in the breakfast bar, yet the R's say it was her bedroom, so why would the R's leave out the pineapple snack, since they would know it would be found in her stomach, just as they knew wiping her down would remove prior forensic evidence?


So in two theories, i.e. JDI and PDI, proponents have to explain coherently why the pineapple snack was not factored into the R's version of events?

With BDI, the fingerprints speak for themselves as does the touch-dna!

.

 

[MsArk]

Hey icedtea4me, perhaps the tea in the glass was iced tea! Wouldn't be hot. I actually do find it more likely that someone set their teabag in there though. Most american kids wouldn't drink plain tea, I know I had lots of milk and sugar in my (hot) tea when I was young.

The pineapple really is one of the strangest clues in this case. It throws a wrench in everyone's theory; RDI, IDI,JDI whoever.

I wish the coroner hadn't done such a sloppy job on scene. If we knew a more exact time of death it would probably help explain this.

I was about to say the exact same thing. Iced tea makes perfect sense because it is a staple in most southern households. Patsy would have very likely served "sweet tea" to her family and the kids (BR if indeed his fingerprints are on the glass). I can almost promise you a 9 yo boy would prefer iced sweet tea over hot tea any day of the week. MOO

 

[Ellie9]

I was about to say the exact same thing. Iced tea makes perfect sense because it is a staple in most southern households. Patsy would have very likely served "sweet tea" to her family and the kids (BR if indeed his fingerprints are on the glass). I can almost promise you a 9 yo boy would prefer iced sweet tea over hot tea any day of the week. MOO

This is possible but there was a tea bag inside. Usually when people make a big batch of sweet tea they remove the bags and then refrigerate it all in a big pitcher. Even if they kept the bags in, they wouldn't have dry strings.

I've been trying to look this up though. I know some companies have cold brew tea bags. When did these become available? Were they for sale in 1996?


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[Cymbaline]

This is possible but there was a tea bag inside. Usually when people make a big batch of sweet tea they remove the bags and then refrigerate it all in a big pitcher. Even if they kept the bags in, they wouldn't have dry strings.

I've been trying to look this up though. I know some companies have cold brew tea bags. When did these become available? Were they for sale in 1996?


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1999

Source: http://www.google.com/patents/US6491961

 

[OliviaG1996]

This is possible but there was a tea bag inside. Usually when people make a big batch of sweet tea they remove the bags and then refrigerate it all in a big pitcher. Even if they kept the bags in, they wouldn't have dry strings.

I've been trying to look this up though. I know some companies have cold brew tea bags. When did these become available? Were they for sale in 1996?


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Do we know if the string in the glass was dry? If it was, it could've dried within hours of its discovery by LE.

 

[Ellie9]

Do we know if the string in the glass was dry? If it was, it could've dried within hours of its discovery by LE.

I think I worded this badly. You're right that it could dry out! But I guess I meant, if the pitcher in the fridge had cold tea, with bags for some reason, they would kind of flop out into the glass rather than hang neatly with the string on the outside, which you would do when making your own cup. Hope that makes more sense!

If cold brew came out in 1999 then it really does seem more reasonable that this was hot tea. And there were only one set of fingerprints on the glass.

And also, adding this in edit, when people do leave bags in the sweet tea pitcher, they cut off or yank off the strings and paper label on the end. Otherwise the paper melts off into the tea and that's kind of gross. Someone as perfectionist as pr wouldn't have sloppy improperly made southern style sweet tea!


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[Anti-K]

Yes. From my post #82 on this thread, the last picture from CourtTV states:

Breakfast room: #415 & #417
a. Pineapple bowl

• Patricia and Burke's fingerprints

b. Glass on the table in north dining room

• Burke Ramsey's fingerprints

IMO, everyone that had been in that house at least a day before the murder remembered close to everything they did once they found out JBR had been kidnapped/murdered. That's an event that sticks out in your memory. For example, Father Holverstock remembered heating water when JR came up from the basement with JBR. I just don't see how one can completely forget placing what could be a crucial piece of evidence, even if it was a non-event at the time, on the table unless they were questioned about it a decade or so later. Why wouldn't they have a sudden realization about it later, especially with all the coverage the "mysterious pineapple mystery" has received?



I think I answered that, though. I think the bowl full of pineapple found on the table next to the glass was the bowl she was served, and the bowl she ate from. Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you.



We have really no way of knowing if the bowl in the December 23rd photo was the same bowl used for the pineapple. If it was, I would expect many more fingerprints to have been found than just PR's and BR's. Also, I assume the bowl would've been washed after the party and before the 25th.

Thank you, OliviaG1996. I’d completely forgotten about Burke’s prints being on that glass.

Also, I had been thinking that people were saying that Burke served pineapple, out of the bowl and onto something; that the spoon was the serving spoon. I’ll reconsider this for a bit before saying anything about it.

This is always going to be a crazy topic to discuss. It’s one of the great mysteries in a great mystery full of great mysteries. IMO, it is insolvable; not enough information. Although, everyone seems to have their own solution to it.

Memories a scary thing. And, I don’t think it works the way most people expect or think or believe it to work. Sometimes when a piece of evidence – a fact – doesn’t fit with a memory (or, lack of) many times it simply means that the memory (or, lack of) is wrong. True story. OliviaG1996, you should read The Invisible Gorilla. I think all your questions and comments on memory are answered in there. Plus, it’s a fascinating and eye-opening read and a book that I wish everyone who read and digest before trying to weed lie from truth, sincerity from deception (etc) in the various re-tellings of events throughout the various interviews. And, no I receive no money from any sales of this book. Just read it.
…

AK

 

[Anti-K]

Hey icedtea4me, perhaps the tea in the glass was iced tea! Wouldn't be hot. I actually do find it more likely that someone set their teabag in there though. Most american kids wouldn't drink plain tea, I know I had lots of milk and sugar in my (hot) tea when I was young.

The pineapple really is one of the strangest clues in this case. It throws a wrench in everyone's theory; RDI, IDI,JDI whoever.

I wish the coroner hadn't done such a sloppy job on scene. If we knew a more exact time of death it would probably help explain this.

IMO, it doesn’t throw a wrench into anything.

Something as simple as this could have happened: jonbenet, having fallen asleep earlier than usual and having eaten little at the White’s, wakes up at home, in bed, sort of hungry and maybe still thinking about Christmas, wanders downstairs and sees the pineapple in the bowl, left there from earlier in the day, forgotten by everyone, and she has a piece, but still tired wanders off back to bed and falls asleep. 30 minutes later, the killer strikes.
…

AK

 

[Anti-K]

The pineapple found in JonBenet's stomach is identical to that left in the bowl in the breakfast bar, down to the rind!

It was the last thing she ate since it was at the top of her digestive tract with everything else she ate that day preceding it, already or partially digested.


BR's fingerprints are on both the glass and the bowl, PR's is only on the bowl this places them both in the breakfast bar after arriving back from the White's.

The glass may simply have been used to deposit a used tea-bag, allowing the tea to be drunk from some other mug or cup?

BR's touch-dna is to be found on the pink barbie nightgown dumped in the wine-cellar, this along with PR's fibers on the ligature-garrote and JR's fibers left in JonBenet's size-12 underwear, link all three R's to the wine-cellar crime-scene, no ifs and no buts!

IMO the pineapple evidence tell us that the R's either never knew about the pineapple snack or forgot it happened, otherwise they would have factored it into their version of events.

Similar might be argued regarding the size-12's, e.g. PR never knew JonBenet was wearing them, hence her legend about JonBenet wanting outsized underwear despite the R's being millionares and having a credit account with Bloomingdales, PR could have simply phoned Bloomingdales and asked for JonBenet's correct size to be home delivered ASAP!

Kolar said in an Tricia interview he thought JonBenet's assault started in the breakfast bar, yet the R's say it was her bedroom, so why would the R's leave out the pineapple snack, since they would know it would be found in her stomach, just as they knew wiping her down would remove prior forensic evidence?


So in two theories, i.e. JDI and PDI, proponents have to explain coherently why the pineapple snack was not factored into the R's version of events?

With BDI, the fingerprints speak for themselves as does the touch-dna!

.

Food does not exit as it enters, so it is not necessarily true from location found, that the pineapple was the last thing eaten. Just the facts, dude. Just the facts.

Mrs Ramseys and Burke’s fingerprints are not date or time-stamped.

Fibers and tDNA link the Ramseys to every room in the house.

For all theorists, probably, the pineapple was not factored into the Ramseys tale because the Ramseys didn’t know anything about it.
…

AK

 

[Ellie9]

Food does not exit as it enters, so it is not necessarily true from location found, that the pineapple was the last thing eaten. Just the facts, dude. Just the facts.

It's true that it doesn't mean it's the last thing eaten, but it means it was most likely eaten within four hours of her death (at which point the body stops digesting).

I once underwent a test for stomach emptying at a hospital during some medical problems years back. I was told that if my stomach was not empty of the food they'd given me within four hours I probably had a medical condition called gastroparesis. So unless JonBenet had this problem herself - a fairly disabling condition that causes people daily pain, chronic nausea, malnutrition, and problems with being underweight - it's probably the last thing she ate. Especially if one believes PR at her word that she has no idea about the pineapple snack and also that JonBenet was asleep after the party and put to bed as soon as they returned.

If PR or JR gave their daughter a snack after returning home, why lie about it? That'd be perfectly normal behaviour! Why say she was asleep? Why say they have no memory of the snack? It doesn't even point suspicion at them at all. If they had just said this, I don't even think we'd be using this evidence against them. It would just help to clarify the timeline.

Maybe they just didn't want the timeline clarified.

 

[icedtea4me]

It's true that it doesn't mean it's the last thing eaten, but it means it was most likely eaten within four hours of her death (at which point the body stops digesting).

I once underwent a test for stomach emptying at a hospital during some medical problems years back. I was told that if my stomach was not empty of the food they'd given me within four hours I probably had a medical condition called gastroparesis. So unless JonBenet had this problem herself - a fairly disabling condition that causes people daily pain, chronic nausea, malnutrition, and problems with being underweight - it's probably the last thing she ate. Especially if one believes PR at her word that she has no idea about the pineapple snack and also that JonBenet was asleep after the party and put to bed as soon as they returned.

If PR or JR gave their daughter a snack after returning home, why lie about it? That'd be perfectly normal behaviour! Why say she was asleep? Why say they have no memory of the snack? It doesn't even point suspicion at them at all. If they had just said this, I don't even think we'd be using this evidence against them. It would just help to clarify the timeline.

Maybe they just didn't want the timeline clarified.

If they were involved, I'd say they were distancing themselves from her.

 

[Anti-K]

It's true that it doesn't mean it's the last thing eaten, but it means it was most likely eaten within four hours of her death (at which point the body stops digesting).

I once underwent a test for stomach emptying at a hospital during some medical problems years back. I was told that if my stomach was not empty of the food they'd given me within four hours I probably had a medical condition called gastroparesis. So unless JonBenet had this problem herself - a fairly disabling condition that causes people daily pain, chronic nausea, malnutrition, and problems with being underweight - it's probably the last thing she ate. Especially if one believes PR at her word that she has no idea about the pineapple snack and also that JonBenet was asleep after the party and put to bed as soon as they returned.

If PR or JR gave their daughter a snack after returning home, why lie about it? That'd be perfectly normal behaviour! Why say she was asleep? Why say they have no memory of the snack? It doesn't even point suspicion at them at all. If they had just said this, I don't even think we'd be using this evidence against them. It would just help to clarify the timeline.

Maybe they just didn't want the timeline clarified.

Maybe they didn’t know anything about the pineapple.
Maybe the pineapple doesn’t change the timeline (it doesn’t).
Maybe it only took 30 minutes for the pineapple to go to where it was found.
.

I’ve been around long enough to have been exposed to a bazillion pineapple-disproves-the-timeline arguments. They’re all wrong simply because jbr could have woken up a couple hours after being put to bed, and eaten a bite or two (there is no evidence of a snack, a very small amount of pineapple is all) without anyone knowing, and then a half hour later, after she’s back to sleep, the killer arrives…
…

AK

 

[Anti-K]

If they were involved, I'd say they were distancing themselves from her.

Even if they were involved, there is nothing to show that they knew anything about the pineapple, and there is nothing that connects the pineapple to what happened to jbr.
…

AK

 

[UKGuy]

The pineapple in JonBenet's stomach and that in the bowl were forensically compared and matched right down to the rind, i.e. it was fresh pineapple purchased by Patsy at the supermarket.

Pineapple digests very quickly, faster than most foods, since it is mainly composed of water, so the timeframe for eating it is constrained, i.e. it is not hours. Basically she ate the pineapple and shortly afterwards she was killed!

The connection of the pineapple to JonBenet is that its presence in her stomach contradicts the parent's version of events, but not BR's since he said she walked into the house.