The Incinerator #2

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Posting the following for a point of reference, recently there was a fire near me, where a persons cottage was burned to the ground.
Fire was on October 1st, early morning
It took a day and a half to sift through the burnt cottage to find human remains.
Remains found late afternoon October 2nd
If you look at the photos/videos included with the links below, you will see the state of the cottage, not much left, a totally involved fire, near complete burn, therefore not much left of the structure, nor anything in it
Remains identified and reported in MSM early morning October 7th
4 days from finding remains to identification, when potential identity of victim known prior to post mortem

http://www.chextv.com/News/LN/13-10-02/UPDATE_Human_Remains_Found_After_Cottage_Fire.aspx

http://www.mykawartha.com/news-stor...mains-positively-identified-as-pierre-girard/
 
Posting the following for a point of reference, recently there was a fire near me, where a persons cottage was burned to the ground.
Fire was on October 1st, early morning
It took a day and a half to sift through the burnt cottage to find human remains.
Remains found late afternoon October 2nd
If you look at the photos/videos included with the links below, you will see the state of the cottage, not much left, a totally involved fire, near complete burn, therefore not much left of the structure, nor anything in it
Remains identified and reported in MSM early morning October 7th
4 days from finding remains to identification, when potential identity of victim known prior to post mortem

http://www.chextv.com/News/LN/13-10-02/UPDATE_Human_Remains_Found_After_Cottage_Fire.aspx

http://www.mykawartha.com/news-stor...mains-positively-identified-as-pierre-girard/

It is just MOO still TB was not reduced to mere bones and ashes and it seems pretty clear from reports this was the case. The fact LE were able to ID him fairly quickly (from what it seems; on the scene). Taking into account this could have been another victim and not necessarily TB. Plus the fact there was enough of his remains for the Centre of Forensic Sciences to work with.

I also believe he was burned in a barrel and not in the incinerator. I think the incinerator was the intended method but for some reason it didn't work. This could explain the burnt areas in the field. MOO.

A cause of death is not yet known and the coroner and Centre of Forensic Sciences are assisting in examining the remains.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/0...olice-anxious-as-hunt-for-suspects-continues/
 
Below is a picture of the ash cleanout tool , looks like it has been in grey ash recently
 

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Not that it means anything , but it sure looks like the electric plug-in cord was left lying on the ground
 

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Not that it means anything , but it sure looks like the electric plug-in cord was left lying on the ground

You could be right Arnie, but to me they just look like branches. Cannot say I have ever seen three prong extension cords that colour before but that is JMO. Where would the extension cord get plugged into on the incinerator? At this end of it or around the back which is not visible in the picture. So you figure the perps would have used a generator then obviously.

In your other picture you posted, does it look like ashes just below in that area where you circled the tool? Looks pretty grey. Thanks for the enlarged pictures and pointing these things out.
 
You could be right Arnie, but to me they just look like branches. Cannot say I have ever seen three prong extension cords that colour before but that is JMO. Where would the extension cord get plugged into on the incinerator? At this end of it or around the back which is not visible in the picture. So you figure the perps would have used a generator then obviously.

In your other picture you posted, does it look like ashes just below in that area where you circled the tool? Looks pretty grey. Thanks for the enlarged pictures and pointing these things out.

I probably should have labeled it electrical cord instead of extension cord.

The whole unit is wired in that grey style wire , you can see more of it on the grey control box on the front of the incinerator.

It would also have a decent length of cord to reach a plug-in or generator so that no sparks are created close to the propane source.

Here is a higher definition picture , click on it a couple of times to enlarge it and you should be able to see it better.

(My guess) is that a generator was in the back of the truck , and when they unhooked the trailer to park it , they would have removed the cord and set it on the ground at that time .
 

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I probably should have labeled it electrical cord instead of extension cord.

The whole unit is wired in that grey style wire , you can see more of it on the grey control box on the front of the incinerator.

It would also have a decent length of cord to reach a plug-in or generator so that no sparks are created close to the propane source.

Here is a higher definition picture , click on it a couple of times to enlarge it and you should be able to see it better.

(My guess) is that a generator was in the back of the truck , and when they unhooked the trailer to park it , they would have removed the cord and set it on the ground at that time .

So do you think the incinerator was used back in the treed area and not in the field where the "person" said they saw it IIRC Friday? At this time I am thinking the incinerator wasn't used for TB. The intention may have been there, but for some reason it wasn't used. IMO barrels seemed to be plentiful in the barn and I could imagine one being used if the incinerator plan failed.

Did TPS figured LB suffered the same fate (barrel) and this is what lead TPS to search the barn looking for a barrel with evidence in it related to LB? Did the perps discover there still identifiable remains left of LB after burning in a barrel (similar to TB), and that is why the incinerator was ordered; to complete the disgusting deed? Just my theory and JMO.
 
Not that it means anything , but it sure looks like the electric plug-in cord was left lying on the ground

I'm with swedie, looks like branches to me as well. One thing I did notice though, and not sure if anyone has mentioned it before, but the landing leg doesnt seem to be sitting on anything solid. If I was going to leave a heavy trailer like that sitting in the bush for any length of time, I'd be sure to put the leg onto something to prevent it from sinking into the ground.
 
So do you think the incinerator was used back in the treed area and not in the field where the "person" said they saw it IIRC Friday? At this time I am thinking the incinerator wasn't used for TB. The intention may have been there, but for some reason it wasn't used. IMO barrels seemed to be plentiful in the barn and I could imagine one being used if the incinerator plan failed.

Did TPS figured LB suffered the same fate (barrel) and this is what lead TPS to search the barn looking for a barrel with evidence in it related to LB? Did the perps discover there still identifiable remains left of LB after burning in a barrel (similar to TB), and that is why the incinerator was ordered; to complete the disgusting deed? Just my theory and JMO.

Yes , I think the incinerator was used somewhere else and then parked here afterwards (I beleive this pic was taken after DM was arrested)

It certainly had been moved very recently , look at the disturbed leaves and fresh dirt under the hitch ..... to unhook the unit , a person has to stand in that spot to crank the jack and raise the hitch from the truck .... it takes a few minutes .... once that was done the electrical cord would be unplugged from the generator in the back of the truck .... of course that is presuming a generator was used , and presuming it was carried in the back of the truck .... it sure looks like it to me anyway ..... and would also mean the incinerator was left hooked to truck while in use .

The barrels are a dead issue , LE even confirmed it ........ but because they were brought out of the barn and seen on TV is the only reason everybody is so obsessed with them ..... what nobody sees is all the other items carefully checked inside the barn.

And if a burning barrel was used for LB or TB it would have had the steel top cut away , vent holes punched in the bottom , be all black and rusty , and it would take days and days of constant firing .... and the fuel would have to be something like wood ..... you cannot keep adding petroleum fuels to a fire , the flashback will burn the murderer more than burn the victim

A picture below to show the jack and disturbed earth where the operator stood to do the cranking

Notice also the electrical cord runs under the hitch and is fastened to the trailer with tarp straps .... shows clearly on my computer .... I have a high-def picture which does not reproduce quite as good here.
 

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I should also have labeled this in the picture ...... look at the base of the jack leg (the part that sticks down under the hitch)

You can see corn stubble wrapped around it ..... which means it was recently moved through the Field.
 
It is just MOO still TB was not reduced to mere bones and ashes and it seems pretty clear from reports this was the case. The fact LE were able to ID him fairly quickly (from what it seems; on the scene). Taking into account this could have been another victim and not necessarily TB. Plus the fact there was enough of his remains for the Centre of Forensic Sciences to work with.

I also believe he was burned in a barrel and not in the incinerator. I think the incinerator was the intended method but for some reason it didn't work. This could explain the burnt areas in the field. MOO.

A cause of death is not yet known and the coroner and Centre of Forensic Sciences are assisting in examining the remains.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/0...olice-anxious-as-hunt-for-suspects-continues/

I agree Swedie, that more of TB remained than just ashes, as did the poor soul in this recent fire who lost his life. There is reference in the article that the remains were discovered as well as remains of the man's dog, so even in the state of the fire, remains were still recognizable as such.

I posted this as a reference due to the fact that so much questioning of how TB was identified so quickly if his body had been burned. IMO TB's body was burned to a much lesser degree than the man in this cottage had been, so identification of TB would have been possible in the short time from when remains were discovered(actual date unknown to us) until the announcement in the media 05-14-13 IIRC.

As to how TB's body was burned, I honestly have no opinion no matter how likely an option the incinerator seems to have been, I just know his body was in fact burned.

JMO
 
The detective said something along the lines of ..... "based on the totality of the evidence we have been able to identify the remains of TB" ....

Reading between the lines it sounds like there was not much left .... maybe some teeth , or steel caps from safety boots , or belt buckles , or jewelry were used to confirm the identity.

A badly burned body on the exterior would still provide good DNA from the interior .... and if that was the case you would expect LE would have said .... "based on DNA tests we have made an identification " .....

And because the macabre implications of using the incinerator has been front and center in the news , I would expect LE would have told us if it was not used .... they were quick to say no additional remains of other people were found .... and they were quick to say the barrels played no part etc.
 
Yes , I think the incinerator was used somewhere else and then parked here afterwards (I beleive this pic was taken after DM was arrested)

It certainly had been moved very recently , look at the disturbed leaves and fresh dirt under the hitch ..... to unhook the unit , a person has to stand in that spot to crank the jack and raise the hitch from the truck .... it takes a few minutes .... once that was done the electrical cord would be unplugged from the generator in the back of the truck .... of course that is presuming a generator was used , and presuming it was carried in the back of the truck .... it sure looks like it to me anyway ..... and would also mean the incinerator was left hooked to truck while in use .

The barrels are a dead issue , LE even confirmed it ........ but because they were brought out of the barn and seen on TV is the only reason everybody is so obsessed with them ..... what nobody sees is all the other items carefully checked inside the barn.

And if a burning barrel was used for LB or TB it would have had the steel top cut away , vent holes punched in the bottom , be all black and rusty , and it would take days and days of constant firing .... and the fuel would have to be something like wood ..... you cannot keep adding petroleum fuels to a fire , the flashback will burn the murderer more than burn the victim

A picture below to show the jack and disturbed earth where the operator stood to do the cranking

Notice also the electrical cord runs under the hitch and is fastened to the trailer with tarp straps .... shows clearly on my computer .... I have a high-def picture which does not reproduce quite as good here.

Good eyes Arnie. :tyou: Yes I agree the barrels are a dead issue now because those specific ones held no evidence related to LB or TB according to TPS. BUT if the perps used a barrel or two, (which DM obviously had many to chose from) they may have been found back in the bush or had been disposed of somewhere. Many farms and/or country people use metal barrels to burn stuff in and if DM had a couple on his property in full view, I don't think anyone would think anything nefarious of them prior to TB's murder. As you said, they need to be vented with holes and could that be where the perps went wrong with a complete burn? Depending how and what type of fuel the perps fueled the fire could cause flashback absolutely. And I mentioned way, way back also, I wondered if the perps ended up with scorched head or body hair. That may have been a potential clue in itself to show involvement. Did anyone who came into contact with DM or MS noticed scorched hairs? Maybe...

Arnie not sure if you've read my post #160 and listened to the interview video. At approximately 16:30 it's mentioned about TB being burned in a "barrel". LE have not confirmed it nor have the confirmed the incinerator was used. My bold part in post #160 IMO says a lot. To me it says LE did not find TB's body in the incinerator therefore they are not sure if it was used for TB.

Again regarding what was remaining of TB. There are articles out there which specify "body". I have posted many posts with information and MOO as to why I feel strongly there were more than ashes, teeth, larger bones, maybe his wallet, jewelry ect. The body was sent to Forensics to determine cause of death. How could cause of death be determined with a pile of ashes, teeth and bones? Not to mention ID was made the follow day of TB's remains. To me that is too quick to have run DNA tests on bone or teeth. One case I was following was Hailey Dunn's of Texas case and her bones and teeth were found. It took months for tests to come back. HTH. Also it is JMO cremation had to have taken place after Forensics/coroner were finished their examination looking for cause of death and whatever else his body could tell them. Cremation has to be scheduled ONLY after forensics is done with the remains. I highly doubt SB would want to bury her husband's remains in the horrific state the murderers left him in. Her statement about being handed a small box; because she had what was left of TB cremated. JMO.

As someone mentioned way, way back, and I agree, I am certain LE wouldn't positively ID someone's remains merely based on what they were wearing. They would want to be absolutely IDing the victim. How horrible it would be for LE to report something like this to a family without being absolute certain of a person's identity. Example; what if the perps stripped TB of his belongings and burnt them, but they were holding him hostage somewhere still alive kwim?

What I now wonder is, if TB was burnt in a barrel and they also took the barrel in for testing, where they testing it for LB's DNA also but no DNA of hers was found? Did TPS examine HPS crime reports and noticed HPS noted barrels in the barn listed? Is this what lead TPS to search the barn, looking for burnt barrels or wanting to examine what was contained within the barrels? Upon examining the barrels TPS found chemicals, knowing some criminals do immerse their victims in chemicals to dispose of them, was that something they took into consideration and needed to investigate? As it turned out, the barrels are nil and void in their investigation but the search did turn up clues to assist them in their investigation so they claimed. :moo:

A spokesperson for the coroner’s office said Bosma’s body had not been released as of Tuesday afternoon. The remains will likely be absent at a funeral the family has scheduled for 11 a.m. Wednesday.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...wed_police_interest_in_her_disappearance.html
 
I know that LE have never confirmed whether the incinerator was used, but I believe it was, based on the fact they would neither confirm nor deny, and that LE continued to investigate the incinerator, asking questions regarding specs, and specifically "how long it takes for cremation ... ":

from June 22:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...rge-in-mysterious-bosma-case/article12757899/

Since police seized the incinerator from Mr. Millard’s farm, investigators have been in regular contact with both Mr. Penner and SuperNova Manufacturing in Georgia. Tim Cook, a manager there, said police asked “how it operates and how long it takes for cremation and things like that.”

I don't place much importance on what Gary Clewley said when he made reference to Tim being burned in a "barrel"; he's a defence lawyer, not LE, and he may have thought of an incinerator as the old backyard barrels we used to use, that we called incinerators.

WRT the size of the box that was returned to Sharlene, there are various articles referring to it as about the size of a shoebox:

from:
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/06/15/tim_bosma_comes_home_heartbreakingly_in_a_small_box.html


ANCASTER, ONT.—He came in a box, a small wooden square not much bigger than a shoe box.

If that is the case, that would certainly represent all of TB's remains (based on his height and weight).
 
What would happen to a gun in an incinerator??
 
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Originally Posted by Arnie M
Last time I checked I recall it is about 60 minutes from Brantford to the Hangar , as compared to only about 30 minutes from Brantford to the farm , so my guess is they went immediately to the farm

The farm would be dark and quiet , and out of the public eye , as compared to the hangar which for all practical purposes was a well lit public setting with employees who have keys and who would be showing up for work in a couple of hours , I cant think of a worse setting to operate an incinerator for several hours , let alone then have to move it during daylight to the farm

I think the incinerator is too tall to fit in the car-hauler trailer

(MY NOTE: If this post seems a wee bit repetitive it's because I moved it from another thread where it didn't belong. - Carli)

I agree, especially assuming the machine was also sitting on its own trailer. You can (sort of) estimate the height from the camera angle and height of the trees in the background.

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(This again is the photo taken by the neighbors. Note that there is a large attachment with a red access box on top of the incinerator, too. I have no idea what that is or what it's for, but it definitely adds to the overall height significantly. Is that an "after burner" for gases etc?)

According to the specs, the little incinerator (SN250) weighs a hefty 2100 pounds and the next size (SN500) checks in at 4500 pounds. Even without the added weight of propane tank and other auxilliary add-ons you still have a piece of machinery that can't easily be moved around, IMO, even on that trailer especially up a grassy hillside in the dead of night IMO. (What did they use to pull the trailer?) Sounds like quite a major operation, really. IMO.

Nevertheless, according to those witnesses who apparently take pictures of items on their neighbor's properties (??) they hadn't noticed the incinerator earlier on, so it must have arrived there at some time close to the disappearance/murder of TB. It's presumed that it was purchased shortly after the disappearance / murder of LB to dispose of her body. If the incinerator wasn't on the farm back then but it was used for this intended purpose, then where was it at that time? At the hangar? Does anyone know if there were any reports suggesting that LB, (alive or dead) had ever been at the hangar? Curious.
 
I believe the neighbours did see the incinerator earlier, we just don't know how much earlier. When they went back to take the picture on the Friday, it had been moved from it's original location. Where they had originally seen it is where the scorched ground was.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...6-May-2013-4-**ARREST**&p=9432188#post9432188

JMO

Thanks for the link, Alethea, and thanks, too, to Arnie for interesting contributions to this thread. I can't help but notice that the propane tank and (possibly) the incinerator were securely and permanently attached to the flatbed trailer. This makes sense because these are very heavy items that could not just be manhandled onto the trailer by a couple of people. This still leaves me wondering how there would be a burnt area or ashes on the ground under the trailer as has been reported. Wouldn't there, at the very least, be the blocked in outline of the trailer in that burnt area? If the incinerator burns with such heat on its underside, wouldn't that potentially damage the tires? Again, pardon me if I missed this in the thread, but I haven't seen any references to which vehicle (with a tow hook) that hauled that heavy equipment up the grassy hillside. It's hard to think of a good reason to move it at all. MOO. IMHO.
 
So, basically, at the end of the day, given that the Ayr farm was reportedly either swamp or forest (according to the previous owners, the Snieders, who raised pigs there for over 30 years) , then what vehicle was used to haul that incinerator up the grassy hillside to the treeline. And why?

What vehicle could be used without getting stuck?

Ignoring, for the moment the "chop shop" allegations because no charges were laid and LE leapt from 100 to "less than 10" within one news cycle, than which of the available vehicles could have been used? It seems that most of the Millard vehicles that we've seen photographed at the hangar appear to recently have been sold by SS, presumably on the direction of DM or his mom (SS reportedly being on the no-contact list.) Would it be ok for people charged with murder to sell (or have sold by proxy) vehicles used in their crime? - vehicles, one assumes, that might have probative value in the case?

So, how DID the incinerator get up the hill? When? And why???

Maybe more knowledgeable sleuthers have already figured this out.

For me, I'm just noodling . IMO. IMHO.
 
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