The Incinerator #2

[Woodland]

If the location of the incinerator is not in question, then surely how it got to the location where it was found will come out at trial?

 

[Carli]

If the location of the incinerator is not in question, then surely how it got to the location where it was found will come out at trial?

Presumably so, if it had something to do with the various crimes. The question is, given that poor TB's "unrecognizable" burned body was found at the Ayr farm, how did it come to be there in that state? Was the incinerator used that awful night? If so, why move it afterwards, attracting neighbor's interest and involving a fairly heavy duty towing vehicle to drag the incinerator up the early spring soft soil to that treeline. Again, it appears that the vehicles collected at the two MillardAir hangars have all been on the block relatively recently, so does that suggest that it was some other vehicle altogether that was used for towing? Whose? Why? As I say, just noodling. MOO.

 

[Alethea Dice]

Thanks for the link, Alethea, and thanks, too, to Arnie for interesting contributions to this thread. I can't help but notice that the propane tank and (possibly) the incinerator were securely and permanently attached to the flatbed trailer. This makes sense because these are very heavy items that could not just be manhandled onto the trailer by a couple of people. This still leaves me wondering how there would be a burnt area or ashes on the ground under the trailer as has been reported. Wouldn't there, at the very least, be the blocked in outline of the trailer in that burnt area? If the incinerator burns with such heat on its underside, wouldn't that potentially damage the tires? Again, pardon me if I missed this in the thread, but I haven't seen any references to which vehicle (with a tow hook) that hauled that heavy equipment up the grassy hillside. It's hard to think of a good reason to move it at all. MOO. IMHO.

There was a video posted at one time showing how the Eliminator doesn't burn hot on the outside, so I don't think the scorched ground would be from the incinerator itself. Maybe from hot ashes if they were removed while still that hot, but I don't know why they would want to remove the ashes so quickly, if at all. I would think the Ram truck would have been able to move the incinerator from one spot across the field to the second spot. But again, if it was used, I don't know why they would bother doing that either.

JMO

 

[hopingforjustice]

There was a video posted at one time showing how the Eliminator doesn't burn hot on the outside, so I don't think the scorched ground would be from the incinerator itself. Maybe from hot ashes if they were removed while still that hot, but I don't know why they would want to remove the ashes so quickly, if at all. I would think the Ram truck would have been able to move the incinerator from one spot across the field to the second spot. But again, if it was used, I don't know why they would bother doing that either.

JMO

you are right AD, I don't know why they would want to remove hot ashes either but that is you and I sitting here talking about it in a calm and relaxed place. It makes no sense to us. We have no idea what was going on there that night. But I am guessing it was not a calm situation and decisions were made without forethought..which ultimately IMO has brought these two men to be where they are now. JMO

 

[Snoofo]

you are right AD, I don't know why they would want to remove hot ashes either but that is you and I sitting here talking about it in a calm and relaxed place. It makes no sense to us. We have no idea what was going on there that night. But I am guessing it was not a calm situation and decisions were made without forethought..which ultimately IMO has brought these two men to be where they are now. JMO

Is it your feeling then that TB's death was not premeditated then? I noticed that you are very certain of guilt so I am curious as to whether you feel it was first degree as charged, second or manslaughter.

 

[andreww]

you are right AD, I don't know why they would want to remove hot ashes either but that is you and I sitting here talking about it in a calm and relaxed place. It makes no sense to us. We have no idea what was going on there that night. But I am guessing it was not a calm situation and decisions were made without forethought..which ultimately IMO has brought these two men to be where they are now. JMO

Me thinks that various parts of the body are not completely turned to ash, specifically large bones and teeth. I would think that they would have wanted to make sure there were no identifiable remains left in the machine?


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[hopingforjustice]

Is it your feeling then that TB's death was not premeditated then? I noticed that you are very certain of guilt so I am curious as to whether you feel it was first degree as charged, second or manslaughter.

I am not sold on either one as of yet. I can see scenarios that would call for either first or second. I don't think manslaughter. (with regards to intent)
however, doesn't first degree come into play with regard to the abduction?

 

[Snoofo]

I am not sold on either one as of yet. I can see scenarios that would call for either first or second. I don't think manslaughter. (with regards to intent)
however, doesn't first degree come into play with regard to the abduction?

Yes first degree automatic with forcible confinement, but some feel it's possible it was f.c. and something gone terribly wrong leading to murder, rather than actual intent to murder at the onset of test drive (among other possibilities)
MOO

 

[andreww]

Good point. I could see the forcible confinement charge being very difficult to prove. TB went on the test drive willingly and obviously there was no planned route. So what constitutes FC? Obviously if he was alive for a long period of time, he was being held against his will, but that doesn't appear to be the case. If he took a bullet to the head the moment they left for the test drive, would there have been FC? Unless one of the accused talks it seems that it will be very difficult to prove.


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[Alethea Dice]

Me thinks that various parts of the body are not completely turned to ash, specifically large bones and teeth. I would think that they would have wanted to make sure there were no identifiable remains left in the machine?


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This got me wondering how the incinerators are actually emptied. There is a video on the company website that shows how they work and it appears that the ashes are removed through a small, square hole at the bottom. Judging by that hole, the remains would have had to be very close to nothing but ash in order to be easily scooped out. One would think if you are going to empty the incinerator, you would remove any larger or recognizable pieces. And yet, the remains and identification was made very quickly once they started searching the farm, if I recall correctly. If he was only partially incinerated, would someone have to climb up and remove his remains from the loading door of the incinerator?

"This investigation is long from over," De Caire said as he announced the gruesome reality that "human remains have been located."

"Evidence indicates the remains have been burned."

The coroner's office and the Centre of Forensic Science is assisting, Kavanagh told a press conference.

"The cause of death comes from the expertise that comes from the coroner's office," Kavanagh said., noting that the exact cause of death will not be known until that examination is complete.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2875368-timothy-bosma-found-dead/

An incinerator has been found at a farm owned by the man accused of murdering Tim Bosma, confirms the homicide detective in charge of the investigation.

But police are not certain if it was used to burn the Ancaster man's body, says Det. Sgt. Matt Kavanagh.

Kavanagh says forensic officers are trying to determine if the incinerator found on the property belonging to Dellen Millard in North Dumfries was used in connection with Bosma's murder or the disposal of his body.

http://www.mississauga.com/news-story/3233070-bosma-case-incinerator-found-on-millard-s-farm/

Police have confirmed that an incinerator was found at the North Dumfries farm property belonging to Dellen Millard, but say they’re not sure whether the incinerator is connected to the death of Tim Bosma.

http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/incinerator-recovered-from-farm-belonging-to-accused-in-bosma-murder-1.1284332

From the early reports, it sounds like TB was not found "in" the incinerator, since they were originally unsure if it was used. Why would anyone remove the body if the incineration was not complete, especially if it was going to be just left there? I'm still not convinced it was used.

JMO

 

[Alethea Dice]

Good point. I could see the forcible confinement charge being very difficult to prove. TB went on the test drive willingly and obviously there was no planned route. So what constitutes FC? Obviously if he was alive for a long period of time, he was being held against his will, but that doesn't appear to be the case. If he took a bullet to the head the moment they left for the test drive, would there have been FC? Unless one of the accused talks it seems that it will be very difficult to prove.


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“He entered that vehicle of his own free will, but he was not allowed to leave, therefore forcible confinement is the proper charge,” Kavanagh said when asked about the charge.

http://www.macleans.ca/news/first-degree-murder-charge-to-be-laid-in-test-drive-death-remains-badly-burned/

I guess from Kavanagh's statement, if he was killed inside the truck, it could still be forcible confinement. But it seems that simplistic statement could also apply to any murder that occurred inside a vehicle or building, since the victim would not have been "allowed to leave".

JMO

 

[Carli]

The Police Chief voiced another very curious statement according to the early reports. IMO.

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/05/14/police-update-tim-bosma-case

"We are convinced by the totality of the evidence that these are the remains of Tim Bosma," De Caire said. "The evidence indicates that the remains were burned."

I've always been puzzled by this "totality of the evidence" reference. To me it suggests that there was really nothing but ashes - those later delivered to the widow who was understandably distressed by the remains being delivered "in a small box". Is it possible that the "totality of the evidence" statement refers to TB's personal belingings - a wallet, a jackknife, a wristwatch, boots, a belt buckle - I don't know but something usually worn by or customarily in the possession of the person?

Still, there was also a reference to an "unrecognizable body" in other reports which suggests there was much more than just ashes to contribute to this "totality of the evidence." Blood evidence perhaps? This possibility also seems more consistent with the extraordinarily swift identification. Yet, as already mentioned, the widow was very distraught by the "small box". Surely, TB's body would not have been fully cremated without the family's involvement. Certainly the police department would not have taken that initiative.

Of course, as far as the prosecution is concerned, presuming it can be proven beyond question that the remains of TB were found on the Ayr farm, then there is still the challenge of asserting, beyond reasonable doubt, that TB came to his untimely end at the hands of one or other or both of those charged. The only way I can see that possibility being presented by the prosecutors would be if there was blood evidence found in the truck. Nevertheless you would still have to prove that the blood was of a sufficient amount to have resulted in a death and, perhaps more importantly, that the persons inside the truck were TB, DM and/or MS. This presumes that the person theoretically waiting for them in a fast-food parking lot never really existed and the vehicle considered to have followed them also never really existed (or they existed but easily proven to be irrelevant.)

Seems to be quite a mystery but apparently the first degree murder charges are so easily proven and the sudden deaths so obviously took place at the hands of those charged that the Attorney General of Ontario all but stated her belief that their conviction is assured. Amazing!

 

[Alethea Dice]

The Police Chief voiced another very curious statement according to the early reports. IMO.

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/05/14/police-update-tim-bosma-case



I've always been puzzled by this "totality of the evidence" reference. To me it suggests that there was really nothing but ashes - those later delivered to the widow who was understandably distressed by the remains being delivered "in a small box". Is it possible that the "totality of the evidence" statement refers to TB's personal belingings - a wallet, a jackknife, a wristwatch, boots, a belt buckle - I don't know but something usually worn by or customarily in the possession of the person?

Still, there was also a reference to an "unrecognizable body" in other reports which suggests there was much more than just ashes to contribute to this "totality of the evidence." Blood evidence perhaps? This possibility also seems more consistent with the extraordinarily swift identification. Yet, as already mentioned, the widow was very distraught by the "small box". Surely, TB's body would not have been fully cremated without the family's involvement. Certainly the police department would not have taken that initiative.

Of course, as far as the prosecution is concerned, presuming it can be proven beyond question that the remains of TB were found on the Ayr farm, then there is still the challenge of asserting, beyond reasonable doubt, that TB came to his untimely end at the hands of one or other or both of those charged. The only way I can see that possibility being presented by the prosecutors would be if there was blood evidence found in the truck. Nevertheless you would still have to prove that the blood was of a sufficient amount to have resulted in a death and, perhaps more importantly, that the persons inside the truck were TB, DM and/or MS. This presumes that the person theoretically waiting for them in a fast-food parking lot never really existed and the vehicle considered to have followed them also never really existed (or they existed but easily proven to be irrelevant.)

Seems to be quite a mystery but apparently the first degree murder charges are so easily proven and the sudden deaths so obviously took place at the hands of those charged that the Attorney General of Ontario all but stated her belief that their conviction is assured. Amazing!

To me, the "totality of the evidence" has always meant that, when you put all the pieces together, it leads to that conclusion. However, from my first link above (which is where my thoughts were going, but I got side-tracked in my post), Kavanagh also seemed to think the coroner would be able to determine a cause of death.

"The cause of death comes from the expertise that comes from the coroner's office," Kavanagh said., noting that the exact cause of death will not be known until that examination is complete.

So my next question would be - how large of bone fragments or what pieces would be needed to, not only quickly determine that they are human and are in fact TB, but also to determine the actual cause of death?

JMO

 

[matou]

I was wondering about the wood chipper that was at the hangar. Was it taken by police and could it have been used in conjunction with the incinerator in the disposal of Tim Bosma?

http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/inciner...elonging-to-accused-in-bosma-murder-1.1284332

 

[swedie]

I was wondering about the wood chipper that was at the hangar. Was it taken by police and could it have been used in conjunction with the incinerator in the disposal of Tim Bosma?

http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/inciner...elonging-to-accused-in-bosma-murder-1.1284332

Certainly a very gruesome and disturbing thought Matou and again makes one wonder the need for a wood chipper at a hangar. It's been discussed in the past and IMO the theories discussed just don't seem logical. It's been suggested also the wood chipper might have been a "hot" item which was painted green. Hmm the green would blend moreso into the farmland surrounding as opposed to the construction yellow the manufacturer paints them.

"I can confirm that the motorcycle written about was recovered in the hangar by the Hamilton Police. There were a number of vehicles and/or parts found in the hangar and this remains under investigation," Const. Debbie McGreal-Dinning of the Hamilton Police Service said in an email. Police say they're still trying to track down owners of the discovered vehicles, putting the number found at less than 10. The description of vehicles dismantled, repainted and having serial numbers grinded away fits with a "typical chop shop," said Waterloo Regional Police Insp. Kevin Thaler.

http://news.ca.msn.com/ontario/hami...hanger-may-have-been-one-big-chop-shop-police

 

[redheadedgal]

... It's been suggested also the wood chipper might have been a "hot" item which was painted green. Hmm the green would blend moreso into the farmland surrounding as opposed to the construction yellow the manufacturer paints them.

i know the color of this particular chipper looks odd... but do we know the make of it? they do come in colors other than "construction yellow": red, light green, dark green, orange, black, blue, white... (see your search engine and images)

 

[Sillybilly]

i know the color of this particular chipper looks odd... but do we know the make of it? they do come in colors other than "construction yellow": red, light green, dark green, orange, black, blue, white... (see your search engine and images)

There was a ton of searching through images, and I don't think anyone was ever able to match up that particular colour to any similar model found online. Here's an archive page of some previous discussion on WS re the wood chipper. I found onlooker's post of particular interest:

from:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-209826.html

06-04-2013, 03:16 AM

onlooker62

Since I just sold my own Vermeer wood chipper (Having been in the business for years), I can assure you THAT is a repainted Vermeer BC1000XL. It's new enough to not NEED a paint job. I'd be suspicious of that particular machine's provenance.

 

[matou]

I found this image that was posted on WS by a member here. Unfortunately I can't find the actual post it is associated with. The new formatting of WS has broken many images it seems:


http://oi43.tinypic.com/set668.jpg
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-209826.html

 

[robynhood]

Hmmm so does that mean image on far RIGHT which is yellow...is the orginal colour as I read swede mentioned earlier and than it was painted green?...I am asking this as a question..??..thanks to anyone who may remember these pictures posted ...thanks Matou...robynhood...

 

[Arnie M]

I found this image that was posted on WS by a member here. Unfortunately I can't find the actual post it is associated with. The new formatting of WS has broken many images it seems:

View attachment 58302
http://oi43.tinypic.com/set668.jpg
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-209826.html

Hi Matou ... I also noticed the "new forum upgrade" ruined the WS search function

Here are a couple of wood chipper posts I remember

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...scussion-and-Theories-3&p=9874522#post9874522
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...scussion-and-Theories-3&p=9873250#post9873250
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...scussion-and-Theories-3&p=9874682#post9874682
http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2229059-police-hunt-stolen-brush-chipper/

Summary (my opinion) from last year when we were discussing the subject ,

-DM has a repainted Grey wood chipper at his hangar
-Earlier a yellow wood chipper had been stolen from an equipment compound in Oakville
-The stolen chipper had a (unique & distinguishing) painted black discharge spout
-DM's chipper has a similar black discharge chute
-The same grey paint used on the chipper was used on a (presumably stolen) deck trailer hauled away by LE from the DM hangar
-The same type of (pintle) hitch is used on the chipper and incinerator
-An airport facility requires a wood chipper about as much as it requires an animal incinerator
-With all the other bizarre aspects of this case I would not be surprised if the chipper & incinerator were intended for destroying evidence

.