The Life Insurance Policies on Dr. Sievers

[IQuestion]

Not exactly, but Teresa was paying for two policies as early as 2005 as evidenced by the checks in the discovery documents.

Page #17, 3123: Envelope from Prudential postmarked 09/11/2007.

Page #17, 3124: Check made out to an insurance company (I can't tell what it says). It is drawn on a checking account only in Teresa's name with a different address than Jarvis (Murok Way). It is dated 11/11/2005. The memo says life insurance.

Page #17, 3125: Check made out to Prudential from same checking account as above. I can't tell the date, possibly 2005?

Page #17, 3867: Envelope from Ohio National Financial Services postmarked 08/22/2009.

Thank you for the info SURFIETX....Perhaps the first two policies were "EVENT DRIVEN PURCHASES"...ie...A new baby is always a good reason, and the second one to cover a mortgage? (Time for me to review some other questions I had on the insurance policies.) I'm sure the life insurance agents are being interviewed as to "who initiated the applications and why?"

 

[IQuestion]

Thank you for the info SURFIETX....Perhaps the first two policies were "EVENT DRIVEN PURCHASES"...ie...A new baby is always a good reason, and the second one to cover a mortgage? (Time for me to review some other questions I had on the insurance policies.) I'm sure the life insurance agents are being interviewed as to "who initiated the applications and why?"

Ugh, so embarrassing! If I took the time to do some sleuthing assisted by Google, instead of asking....I would see that one of our FANTASTIC CONTRIBUTORS "DMAC55"
had already provided the names of the companies and the amounts!! THE LIFE INSURANCE POLICIES ON DR. SIEVERS:blushing: and it was post #1!!:lookingitup::wink:
Still wish we could see the "application pages" on those contracts...that is where the good INFO is always located. IMO

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

Don't know if this has been brought up yet, I don't remember seeing it... but murder counts as accidental for double indemnity clauses. So if some or all of those policies included double indemnity clauses the payout could be significantly higher.




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[No it's not]

Don't know if this has been brought up yet, I don't remember seeing it... but murder counts as accidental for double indemnity clauses. So if some or all of those policies included double indemnity clauses the payout could be significantly higher.

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Wow, was not aware of that! Thank you!

-Nin

 

[Maxine2U]

Don't know if this has been brought up yet, I don't remember seeing it... but murder counts as accidental for double indemnity clauses. So if some or all of those policies included double indemnity clauses the payout could be significantly higher.




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Just like this really good Barbara Stanwyck movie:

 

[irishchook]

Just like this really good Barbara Stanwyck movie:

View attachment 85722

Love that movie.

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[IQuestion]

Wow, was not aware of that! Thank you!

-Nin

I "slipped in the info on accidental death" yesterday (apparently on the the wrong thread...Victim Teresa Ann Grace)
<snipped by me rather than provide the entire post #301 @ 4:32PM>
... Is there a concise listing on the "date each LIFE insurance policy was initially purchased? the type and riders" As I only saw 2005 on one of them.
Whole life (expensive) vs Term (very affordable)
Disability, Accidental death/Double indemnity (being the victim of a murder is considered "accidental"...go figure)
I was thinking he "amassed a large amount of insurance" by telling his wife they were purchasing "larger and more affordable coverage"...but secretly kept paying for the premiums on the old one??

If we could get a copy of the applications (which are usually included in the policy itself) 1)We could see the REASON the insured applied for the coverage. 2)That is usually one of the questions the agents/underwriter asks on the application 3) Also, the agent is supposed to indicate if it "the appointment/purchase was initiated by the agent or the person applying for insurance.
4) Another interesting question usually asked by the insurance agent/company is "Is this replacing any other coverage already in force?" 5) What other coverage do you currently have?
6) If the answer to #5 is YES, the insurance company usually asks HOW MUCH, and WHEN did you purchase the other coverage?
If there was a "material omission" on any of those applications and a claim made in the first 2 years the insurance company does NOT HAVE TO PAY THE CLAIM. They only have to "return" the earned premium.
Now I am REALLY INTERESTED in seeing the applications...think those copies will be available any time soon? (Ya know the insurance investigators are asking questions #1 thru #6, as well as LE!!)

 

[al66pine]

From SurfieTX post. my bolding:
"Page #17, 3123: Envelope from Prudential postmarked 09/11/2007.
Page #17, 3124: Check made out to an insurance company (I can't tell what it says). It is drawn on a checking account only in Teresa's name with a different address than Jarvis (Murok Way). It is dated 11/11/2005. The memo says life insurance.
Page #17, 3125: Check made out to Prudential from same checking account as above. I can't tell the date, possibly 2005?
Page #17, 3867: Envelope from Ohio National Financial Services postmarked 08/22/2009."

Thank you for the info SURFIETX....Perhaps the first two policies were "EVENT DRIVEN PURCHASES"...ie...A new baby is always a good reason, and the second one to cover a mortgage? (Time for me to review some other questions I had on the insurance policies.) I'm sure the life insurance agents are being interviewed as to "who initiated the applications and why?"

IQuestion Good point about life ins purchases often being event driven. TY, TYVM.

Anyone?
Do any above dates in SurfieTX post tie to birth of daughters? I've forgotten their ages.
What yr did Dr TS's practice open?
{ETA: And home purchase w mortgage?}
Thx in adv.

 

[audreyparker]

I paid life insurance claims for years for a couple of different companies in Ohio (but never Ohio National). I just wanted to address a couple of things I've seen mentioned.

I know most people don't like insurance companies, but they really do want to pay out their claims - but to the correct person. Considering the earning potential of TS I don't think the amount of her policies was too outrageous. The insurance company has an obligation to properly pay out claims according to the terms of the policy while maintaining compliance with the law.

I considered my job as one of the most important in the company. When I spoke with people, it was usually one of the most emotional and devastating times in their lives and I always tried to remember that. Especially when it involved a tragic loss like an accident or homicide. Many times, I cried right along with them - although they never knew it.

If you're the least bit empathetic or sensitive it can be a very hard job. You see things daily that are just horrible and I'm well aware of just how easy it is to die in a totally random or freak accident. It also doesn't give you great faith in humanity. People do horrible things to each other - to people they supposedly love- for a lot less money than you would imagine. And death often brings out the worst in family relationships. And equally (or even more) sad are the people who just don't seem to be affected by a family members death. I once had someone call me from a luxury car dealership wanting me to wire a portion of the death benefit (which we did not do) to the dealership to pay for their new car. They were literally sitting there waiting to drive the car off the lot and a close family member had just died.

I would also be interested in knowing who the owner of the policies were. Many times the insured is the owner but not always. And the policy owner is who has the right to do many things - including designate a beneficiary. I would love to know if TS or MS was the owner.

 

[al66pine]

I paid life insurance claims for years for a couple of different companies in Ohio (but never Ohio National)....
I would also be interested in knowing who the owner of the policies were. Many times the insured is the owner but not always. And the policy owner is who has the right to do many things - including designate a beneficiary. I would love to know if TS or MS was the owner.

sbm^
audreyparker Thanks for sharing your experience in life ins claims. I imagine you have just about 'seen it all.'

Yes, good question about who owned the policies. All or some - MS or TS?

Owner can make changes to the policy, such as terminating policy, changing beneficiary, or changing face amount. For a cash-value or whole life policy, owner can withdraw from or borrow against cash-value. Owner does not have to be the insured or the person paying the premium, altho sometimes/often is.

Soooooo, if MS was owner, he could have done any of above, presumably without TS's knowledge, approval or siggie. Or would her siggie have been required? Anyone?

 

[audreyparker]

sbm^
audreyparker Thanks for sharing your experience in life ins claims. I imagine you have just about 'seen it all.'

Yes, good question about who owned the policies. All or some - MS or TS?

Owner can make changes to the policy, such as terminating policy, changing beneficiary, or changing face amount. For a cash-value or whole life policy, owner can withdraw from or borrow against cash-value. Owner does not have to be the insured or the person paying the premium, altho sometimes/often is.

Soooooo, if MS was owner, he could have done any of above, presumably without TS's knowledge, approval or siggie. Or would her siggie have been required? Anyone?

Yes, if MS was the policy owner he would have been able to choose the beneficiary, cash in the policy, etc... With only his signature and TS would not necessarily know about the changes.

 

[irishchook]

Yes, if MS was the policy owner he would have been able to choose the beneficiary, cash in the policy, etc... With only his signature and TS would not necessarily know about the changes.

I apologize if it's been mentioned before, but doesn't the insured (TS) have to have a medical exam required by the LI company? Thanks, in advance.

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[audreyparker]

I apologize if it's been mentioned before, but doesn't the insured (TS) have to have a medical exam required by the LI company? Thanks, in advance.

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For the amount she had, yes. I am sure TS knew about the policies being applied for. What I was saying previously was that if MS was the policy owner he could have made changes regarding the beneficiary without the knowledge of TS after the policy was in force.

 

[RANCH]

For the amount she had, yes. I am sure TS knew about the policies being applied for. What I was saying previously was that if MS was the policy owner he could have made changes regarding the beneficiary without the knowledge of TS after the policy was in force.

Wouldn't Mark be the primary beneficiary from the begining?

 

[irishchook]

For the amount she had, yes. I am sure TS knew about the policies being applied for. What I was saying previously was that if MS was the policy owner he could have made changes regarding the beneficiary without the knowledge of TS after the policy was in force.

Thank you for the clarification. Since it was a total of $4.4M and seemed to be spread throughout multiple insurance companies, can he dodge the physical, etc.? TIA

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[ATasteOfHoney]

I still think the amount & COST of maintaining various life insurance policies totaling $4.5 Million is suspect, **especially** since there were financial difficulties (ex IRS liens, foreclosures threatened).

Significant financial straits yet the life insurance premiums gets paid? Interesting priorities if you ask me.

I'm sure we will hear more about where MS's "priorities" lay as time progresses.

 

[FightTheOstrich]

I still think the amount & COST of maintaining various life insurance policies totaling $4.5 Million is suspect, **especially** since there were financial difficulties (ex IRS liens, foreclosures threatened).

Significant financial straits yet the life insurance premiums gets paid? Interesting priorities if you ask me.

I'm sure we will hear more about where MS's "priorities" lay as time progresses.

Good point. I wish we knew the amount of debt TS was shouldering so we could subtract that from the life insurance total.

It would be interesting to know if the Sievers had setup education funds for the girls...

 

[audreyparker]

There's no way to tell without looking at the application and the policy file. Unless they had a trust the bene most likely would be MS. Most people normally have their spouse as the beneficiary of their policy based on my previous experience. But, there were a couple of instances I had where a person had a policy that listed a boyfriend/girlfriend and not their spouse (and I knew they had a spouse) - awkward.

 

[audreyparker]

Thank you for the clarification. Since it was a total of $4.4M and seemed to be spread throughout multiple insurance companies, can he dodge the physical, etc.? TIA

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I can't say for sure without knowing each company's underwriting guide lines, but my guess is no. I would even say that having policies through different companies would make it harder to avoid the exam. Each company would have their own threshold for what amount of insurance would require a paramedical exam. And the amounts of each policy as mentioned in the article I read seem to me like they would require an exam based on my past experience. Unless MS was in cahoots with an insurance agent or underwriter, I'm not sure how he could have gotten around the exam requirement. And it isn't like it's just a blood test - a person actually will come to you and do a physical type exam, some tests (for drugs, tobacco use, disease, etc), and also an mvr. One company I worked for also did a personal history interview with a whole bunch of questions asked over the phone to the proposed insured. The higher the amount requested, the more likely an exam will be required. I didn't work for the companies that TS had her policies through so I don't know their procedures.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

I can't say for sure without knowing each company's underwriting guide lines, but my guess is no. I would even say that having policies through different companies would make it harder to avoid the exam. Each company would have their own threshold for what amount of insurance would require a paramedical exam. And the amounts of each policy as mentioned in the article I read seem to me like they would require an exam based on my past experience. Unless MS was in cahoots with an insurance agent or underwriter, I'm not sure how he could have gotten around the exam requirement. And it isn't like it's just a blood test - a person actually will come to you and do a physical type exam, some tests (for drugs, tobacco use, disease, etc), and also an mvr. One company I worked for also did a personal history interview with a whole bunch of questions asked over the phone to the proposed insured. The higher the amount requested, the more likely an exam will be required. I didn't work for the companies that TS had her policies through so I don't know their procedures.

Yes, Audrey but it is important to note that insurance companies are **for profit** and self-regulated with their own protocols. That being said, there are times where one that owns a policy can increase the insurable amounts without requiring much ado.
As I have stated previously, if a person owns a policy, that person could change the beneficiary at any time & no notice will be given to the previous beneficiary. As a matter of fact, the insurance companies may not tell you who your spouse has listed as a beneficiary if your spouse owns the policy---nope; not without the beneficiary's consent.
There were approx. 4 life insurance policies that totaled $4.4 Million. Some feel that wasn't that much considering our good Doctor's earning potential but I disagree. She wasn't a surgeon, she had a practice but she didn't own the building with tenants paying her rent, and I bet she wasn't rolling in the dough. She lived in a nice home but not on "Nob Hill" & I'm sure she had student loans of substantial amounts. Now we learn of 2 "almost" foreclosure events on the home & IRS liens!!

IMO the life insurance policies of $4.4 Million seems disproportionate to her earning potential AND what they could afford because paying a couple of hundred dollars per month in premium costs (that will go up in time---they were term insurance policies) is unusual as a priority when you're young, health, & struggling with paying your bills.

.....and I bet we shall find out more about where the money was going per MS's priorities.

Moo