The Life Insurance Policies on Dr. Sievers

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Nothing new in this article from December1st, right when the first batch of documents had been released, just the fact that it was posted at this website "INSURANCE FRAUD NEWS"..

http://www.insurancefraud.org/IFNS-detail.htm?key=21488#.VnX7nZWFOR8

-Nin
I'm sure I speak for many here. Your dedication to this case has been undeniable. Sitting and waiting 3 hours, in your car, for those docs to come out, speaks volumes.
Obviously, we cannot all be like you, however, your selflessness is/will be an inspiration to others.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
 
I'm sure I speak for many here. Your dedication to this case has been undeniable. Sitting and waiting 3 hours, in your car, for those docs to come out, speaks volumes.
Obviously, we cannot all be like you, however, your selflessness is/will be an inspiration to others.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
Amen sista'!!

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
 
Nothing new in this article from December1st, right when the first batch of documents had been released, just the fact that it was posted at this website "INSURANCE FRAUD NEWS"..

http://www.insurancefraud.org/IFNS-detail.htm?key=21488#.VnX7nZWFOR8

-Nin
VERY, VERY, VERY INTERESTING.... I brought the following over from the insurance thread post #107 and snipped what I think may be ALSO be going on in this case.
<snipped>
If we could get a copy of the applications (which are usually included in the policy itself) 1)We could see the REASON the insured applied for the coverage. 2)That is usually one of the questions the agents/underwriter asks on the application 3) Also, the agent is supposed to indicate if it "the appointment/purchase was initiated by the agent or the person applying for insurance.
4) Another interesting question usually asked by the insurance agent/company is "Is this replacing any other coverage already in force?" 5) What other coverage do you currently have?
6) If the answer to #5 is YES, the insurance company usually asks HOW MUCH, and WHEN did you purchase the other coverage?
If there was a "material omission" on any of those applications and a claim made in the first 2 years the insurance company does NOT HAVE TO PAY THE CLAIM. They only have to "return" the earned premium.
Now I am REALLY INTERESTED in seeing the applications...think those copies will be available any time soon? (Ya know the insurance investigators are asking questions #1 thru #6, as well as LE!!)

Just to add one additional "caveat" that may turn a lot of this UP SIDE DOWN.... If any of the insurance policies lapsed for non-payment and then were reinstated....THE 2 YEAR CONTESTABILITY STARTS ALL OVER AGAIN!!
UH-OH!
http://www.insure.com/life-insurance/life-insurance-contestability.html
 
I'm sure I speak for many here. Your dedication to this case has been undeniable. Sitting and waiting 3 hours, in your car, for those docs to come out, speaks volumes.
Obviously, we cannot all be like you, however, your selflessness is/will be an inspiration to others.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

:goodpost:

I was looking for "Best Post of the Day" but could not find it :).
 
VERY, VERY, VERY INTERESTING.... I brought the following over from the insurance thread post #107 and snipped what I think may be ALSO be going on in this case.
<snipped>
If we could get a copy of the applications (which are usually included in the policy itself) 1)We could see the REASON the insured applied for the coverage. 2)That is usually one of the questions the agents/underwriter asks on the application 3) Also, the agent is supposed to indicate if it "the appointment/purchase was initiated by the agent or the person applying for insurance.
4) Another interesting question usually asked by the insurance agent/company is "Is this replacing any other coverage already in force?" 5) What other coverage do you currently have?
6) If the answer to #5 is YES, the insurance company usually asks HOW MUCH, and WHEN did you purchase the other coverage?
If there was a "material omission" on any of those applications and a claim made in the first 2 years the insurance company does NOT HAVE TO PAY THE CLAIM. They only have to "return" the earned premium.
Now I am REALLY INTERESTED in seeing the applications...think those copies will be available any time soon? (Ya know the insurance investigators are asking questions #1 thru #6, as well as LE!!)

Just to add one additional "caveat" that may turn a lot of this UP SIDE DOWN.... If any of the insurance policies lapsed for non-payment and then were reinstated....THE 2 YEAR CONTESTABILITY STARTS ALL OVER AGAIN!!
UH-OH!
http://www.insure.com/life-insurance/life-insurance-contestability.html

Within the last two years I purchased life insurance (20 year term) in the amount of $500,000, an addition to insurance I had previously purchased. The underwriter asked me all of the same questions you posted. I had forgotten that the new insurance company actually asked if I was gonna cancel my other life insurance. They fully expected me to do so but I explained that if I predeceased my husband he would need every bit of the life insurance to pay for caretakers. At that point I was told it would be okay to keep the other life insurance. I don't know if they could have forced me to cancel the previous policy or not...I reckon I should have asked. I had to undergo blood testing for HIV and blood chemistries, as well as a physical. A nurse came to our home to perform the testing, which made it convenient. I just looked at my policy and the application is not in the paperwork. Not sure if the applications for Teresa Ann Grace Sievers would be available for us to see.

BTW my husband was kept informed of the whole situation as it unfolded. I don't know how, if he had wanted to do so, he could have purchased life insurance on me without my knowledge.

I suppose someone could be in cahoots with an underwriter, if the underwriter was a friend, to fraudulently obtain life insurance. OR, it would be easier to have an imposter to pose as the spouse. I can't think of any other way to fraudulently obtain life insurance on a spouse, or significant other. Any other ideas out there, anyone?
 
Within the last two years I purchased life insurance (20 year term) in the amount of $500,000, an addition to insurance I had previously purchased. The underwriter asked me all of the same questions you posted. I had forgotten that the new insurance company actually asked if I was gonna cancel my other life insurance. They fully expected me to do so but I explained that if I predeceased my husband he would need every bit of the life insurance to pay for caretakers. At that point I was told it would be okay to keep the other life insurance. I don't know if they could have forced me to cancel the previous policy or not...I reckon I should have asked. I had to undergo blood testing for HIV and blood chemistries, as well as a physical. A nurse came to our home to perform the testing, which made it convenient. I just looked at my policy and the application is not in the paperwork. Not sure if the applications for Teresa Ann Grace Sievers would be available for us to see.

BTW my husband was kept informed of the whole situation as it unfolded. I don't know how, if he had wanted to do so, he could have purchased life insurance on me without my knowledge.

I suppose someone could be in cahoots with an underwriter, if the underwriter was a friend, to fraudulently obtain life insurance. OR, it would be easier to have an imposter to pose as the spouse. I can't think of any other way to fraudulently obtain life insurance on a spouse, or significant other. Any other ideas out there, anyone?

I think there's a pretty good chance that TS's applications will become available in one of the doc dumps. The original checks for her life insurance policies were included in the discovery documents, see post # 100. It's certainly possible the subpoena covered the application documents as well.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...olicies-on-Dr-Sievers&p=12242018#post12242018
 
Hello, all. This may be a little off-topic, but is interesting, nonetheless, in regards to what is going on with the insurance and MS. After my father passed away, my mother worked at Wal-Mart. They had both been self-employed (she had worked for my father), and retired. My mother was about 72, and she passed away in her sleep. We, of course, notified Wal-Mart. About five or six years later, we received a letter from a lawyer in Texas (we don't live anywhere near Texas) re a class action law suit. Wal-Mart had taken out, unbeknownst to my family or my mother, a life insurance policy on her and about 400 other employees in the amount of around $150,000.00. When she passed away, they collected, and we knew nothing. Apparently someone else's family member found out and Wal-Mart was sued. They admitted no wrong doing, but agreed to make partial payments to families, if they jumped through major hoops. We were about one in approximately 20 families who collected anything and it was a very small amount, compared to what the policy was for. I was boiling mad that they had the audacity to do this. Then, the topper is they tried to keep it all quiet. It is very hard to find online, but you still may be able to. I guess my point is (other than I absolutely hate Wal-Mart, how dare they bet on my mother's life), it seems anyone can take out a policy without the person even knowing it. I don't know if I even knew what company it was, because it was all handled by lawyers (which cost us a small fortune). Even though it was class action, we still had to pay for our own lawyers. Of course, some of the poor people could not afford their own lawyer, and that left them out from the get-go. We could barely afford to do it, but it was the principal, as far as I was concerned. Had I known then what I know now, I would have opted out of the class action and handled it on my own, with my own lawyers. However, by the time we got the paperwork, we had only about two days to make a decision or we were out by default. I believe that it is absolutely disgusting that you can take out life insurance on a person without them knowing it, and collect and no one being the wiser. My mother never signed any papers agreeing to this, and no one else in our family was even aware of it. It should not be legal to do this. I thought prior to this, that you had to have an interest in the person's life that you were insuring and suffer a loss if they passed away. I guess not, so maybe MS could have taken out policies and TS was totally unaware. I thought I would share this information as it might help someone in the future. You never really know what is up someone's sleeve. I can hardly type this, because every time I think about it, I get so mad a Wal-Mart for doing this, and benefitting from my mother's death. Oh, and one more thing, if you were one of the unfortunate one's who was unable to receive any money, all of the money went back to Wal-Mart for the insured's death. Tell me that is not so totally wrong. So out of 400 people only about 20 collected and the rest went back into the till at Wal-Mart.

Thanks everyone for the hard work and great thoughts you guys come up with. And, Merry Christmas to all and all have a safe and blessed New Year. Katt]
 
Hello, all. This may be a little off-topic, but is interesting, nonetheless, in regards to what is going on with the insurance and MS. After my father passed away, my mother worked at Wal-Mart. They had both been self-employed (she had worked for my father), and retired. My mother was about 72, and she passed away in her sleep. We, of course, notified Wal-Mart. About five or six years later, we received a letter from a lawyer in Texas (we don't live anywhere near Texas) re a class action law suit. Wal-Mart had taken out, unbeknownst to my family or my mother, a life insurance policy on her and about 400 other employees in the amount of around $150,000.00. When she passed away, they collected, and we knew nothing. Apparently someone else's family member found out and Wal-Mart was sued. They admitted no wrong doing, but agreed to make partial payments to families, if they jumped through major hoops. We were about one in approximately 20 families who collected anything and it was a very small amount, compared to what the policy was for. I was boiling mad that they had the audacity to do this. Then, the topper is they tried to keep it all quiet. It is very hard to find online, but you still may be able to. I guess my point is (other than I absolutely hate Wal-Mart, how dare they bet on my mother's life), it seems anyone can take out a policy without the person even knowing it. I don't know if I even knew what company it was, because it was all handled by lawyers (which cost us a small fortune). Even though it was class action, we still had to pay for our own lawyers. Of course, some of the poor people could not afford their own lawyer, and that left them out from the get-go. We could barely afford to do it, but it was the principal, as far as I was concerned. Had I known then what I know now, I would have opted out of the class action and handled it on my own, with my own lawyers. However, by the time we got the paperwork, we had only about two days to make a decision or we were out by default. I believe that it is absolutely disgusting that you can take out life insurance on a person without them knowing it, and collect and no one being the wiser. My mother never signed any papers agreeing to this, and no one else in our family was even aware of it. It should not be legal to do this. I thought prior to this, that you had to have an interest in the person's life that you were insuring and suffer a loss if they passed away. I guess not, so maybe MS could have taken out policies and TS was totally unaware. I thought I would share this information as it might help someone in the future. You never really know what is up someone's sleeve. I can hardly type this, because every time I think about it, I get so mad a Wal-Mart for doing this, and benefitting from my mother's death. Oh, and one more thing, if you were one of the unfortunate one's who was unable to receive any money, all of the money went back to Wal-Mart for the insured's death. Tell me that is not so totally wrong. So out of 400 people only about 20 collected and the rest went back into the till at Wal-Mart.

Thanks everyone for the hard work and great thoughts you guys come up with. And, Merry Christmas to all and all have a safe and blessed New Year. Katt]

I'm so sorry, Katt, for what you had to go thru with Walmart. It's bad enough that your mother passed and you were grieving her death, but to have all that added stress in your life is just unimaginable. And, to win such a small amount when the whole amount should have gone to the family, IMO. My heart goes out to you.

I did some googling and found one article mentioning this. There may be more. I had thought I had heard about this in the past.

http://consumerist.com/2007/07/03/w...out-on-employees-collected-after-their-death/
 
Thank u for sharing Katsrfun......that is terrible of Walmart and absolutely wrong on so many levels. Totally infuriating.
 
I'm so sorry, Katt, for what you had to go thru with Walmart. It's bad enough that your mother passed and you were grieving her death, but to have all that added stress in your life is just unimaginable. And, to win such a small amount when the whole amount should have gone to the family, IMO. My heart goes out to you.

I did some googling and found one article mentioning this. There may be more. I had thought I had heard about this in the past.

http://consumerist.com/2007/07/03/w...out-on-employees-collected-after-their-death/

Another interesting article regarding this:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/666837/posts

"Wal-Mart took out about 350,000 life insurance policies on the lives of its employees payable to the company, according to the lawsuit filed by Sims and other family members of deceased Wal-Mart employees. Hartford Life Insurance Co. and AIG Life Insurance Co. sold the policies to Wal-Mart.
Wal-Mart borrowed money from the insurers to pay the premiums, which the company was able to write off as a business expense on its federal taxes. "
 
Another interesting article regarding this:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/666837/posts

"Wal-Mart took out about 350,000 life insurance policies on the lives of its employees payable to the company, according to the lawsuit filed by Sims and other family members of deceased Wal-Mart employees. Hartford Life Insurance Co. and AIG Life Insurance Co. sold the policies to Wal-Mart.
Wal-Mart borrowed money from the insurers to pay the premiums, which the company was able to write off as a business expense on its federal taxes. "

So the billions Walmart makes is not enough?

This is totally and completely disgusting. I have other options than Walmart, and now that I know this, I will exercise my options!
 
So the billions Walmart makes is not enough?

This is totally and completely disgusting. I have other options than Walmart, and now that I know this, I will exercise my options!

Yes, I totally agree, but... Walmart did capture TS' killers on video, and for that, I am grateful :)
 
Again, regarding my post about Wal-Mart, above on this page. Thanks for the comments, and the warmth extended to me. We collected about $3,000.00, and Wal-Mart was able to keep the rest. It's true, like they don't already make a ton of money, and to hoodwink their employees. I, too, very, very rarely go to Wal-Mart anymore, nor do any of my friends. We also have other options, and I make use of them instead. I believe that is so dishonest, and then to try and cheat the (some of them very poor) people out of what should have been their money. It's true, you are grieving your lost loved one, (and my mother was so very loved, it was devastating), you have to play games with a Wal-Mart legal team. I will save you all that they made us to, but it was absolutely ridiculous, and they were in the wrong, not us, although they did not admit it. Sorry to be so off topic, but I get infuriated when this comes up, especially at this time of year, and with what poor TS family is going through. Love to all, Katt
 
Again, regarding my post about Wal-Mart, above on this page. Thanks for the comments, and the warmth extended to me. We collected about $3,000.00, and Wal-Mart was able to keep the rest. It's true, like they don't already make a ton of money, and to hoodwink their employees. I, too, very, very rarely go to Wal-Mart anymore, nor do any of my friends. We also have other options, and I make use of them instead. I believe that is so dishonest, and then to try and cheat the (some of them very poor) people out of what should have been their money. It's true, you are grieving your lost loved one, (and my mother was so very loved, it was devastating), you have to play games with a Wal-Mart legal team. I will save you all that they made us to, but it was absolutely ridiculous, and they were in the wrong, not us, although they did not admit it. Sorry to be so off topic, but I get infuriated when this comes up, especially at this time of year, and with what poor TS family is going through. Love to all, Katt

O/t so not going into it. People can google Walmart and see tons of horrifying pracitices that have affected lives badly
 
Another interesting article regarding this:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/666837/posts

"Wal-Mart took out about 350,000 life insurance policies on the lives of its employees payable to the company, according to the lawsuit filed by Sims and other family members of deceased Wal-Mart employees. Hartford Life Insurance Co. and AIG Life Insurance Co. sold the policies to Wal-Mart.
Wal-Mart borrowed money from the insurers to pay the premiums, which the company was able to write off as a business expense on its federal taxes. "


It was called Dead Peasants and maybe that will be good for google searches
 
Some posted: Anyone can take out life ins on anybody & collect on it (my paraphrasing).

Some info on insurable interest and how it relates to who can buy ins on lives of others, whether family by blood or marriage or alternatively thru business or other financial connections.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurable_interest.
"Insurable interest exists when an insured person derives a financial or other kind of benefit from the continuous existence, without impairment or damage, of the insured object (or in the case of a person, their continued survival). A person has an insurable interest in something when loss of or damage to that thing would cause the person to suffer a financial or other kind of loss.Typically, insurable interest is established by ownership, possession, or direct relationship. For example, people have insurable interests in their own homes and vehicles, but not in their neighbors' homes and vehicles, and certainly not those of strangers."
The "factual expectancy test" and "legal interest test" are the two major concepts of insurable interest.[SUP][1][/SUP]
[SUP]"[/SUP]The principle of insurable interest on
life insurance is that a person or organization can obtain an insurance policy on the life of another person if the person or organization obtaining the insurance values the life of the insured more than the amount of the policy. In this way, insurance can compensate for loss. A company may have an insurable interest in a President/CEO or other employee with special knowledge and skills. A creditor has an insurable interest in the life of a debtor, up to the amount of the loan. A person who is financially dependent on a second person has an insurable interest in the life of that second person."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_person_insurance
"In general, it can be described as an insurance policy taken out by a business to compensate that business for financial losses that would arise from the death or extended incapacity of an important member of the business. To put it simply, Keyman Insurance is a standard life insurance, TPD insurance or trauma insurance policy that is used for business succession or business protection purposes. The policy's term does not extend beyond the period of the key person’s usefulness to the business. Keyman Insurance policies are usually owned by the business and the aim is to compensate the business for losses incurred with the loss of a key income generator and facilitate business continuity. Key person insurance does not indemnify the actual losses incurred but compensates with a fixed monetary sum as specified on the insurance policy." bbbm
 
ohreally (great user name)
You have raised some interesting questions. My responses are only my opn, and I welcome our W/S legal professionals and life ins-claims professionals to offer corrections or clarifications to my post.

1. Is Slayer Rule, "...why ...waiting to arrest MS?"
Could be, but imo doubtful.
After arrest & charges, MS/MS atty has right to demand speedy trial (IDK how many days), so FL prosecutor-team must be ready to proceed against that deadline to start trial. Premature arrest does not leave prosecutor-team enough time for trial prep. Team must have enough evidence to support charges made, whether murder or manslaughter or other.
From first doc dump, imo, there is a lot of analysis & prep for Pros-Team to do; esp w more docs anticipated. Imo, still early days for prosecutor-team, despite Lee County LE's extensive and productive investigation. JM2cts.


2. "...if they charge him with anything less than murder he could maybe then file for the insurance..."
Short answer: he could file anyway, even if charged w murder, imo (but might be bad PR move)
Long answer: Typically a beneficiary completes LI co claim form, submits it & death ctf, by mailing to/filing w LI co, not filing w ct.
When a benef files claim, w death ctf stating MoD = homicide (like Dr TS, right?), LI co can/will/may contact LE where death occurred to see if benef. is a suspect or person of interest, etc.
If LE says yes, LI co does not/may not immed'ly pay out $ to that benef, could await to see if crim chgs are brought.
Then if LI co decides to pay contingent benef, if later primary benef is cleared (no crim chgs), LI co could be forced to pay primary benef - so could end up paying twice.
LI co may wait until LE completes investigation and if benef is officially 'cleared,' then co should pay.

Other prob for LI co - if it pays $ to benef, who is later convicted on murder charge, co could be forced to pay $ to contingent benef too. Practically speaking, difficult or virtually impossible for co to recoup $ from primary benef. Could end up paying $ twice.
To prevent paying twice, LI may file an interpleader action* in ct, basically saying - a life ins policy on this decedent named X as primary benef and Y as contingent benef; death ctf states MoD = homicide; we/the co cannot determine who to pay, so co is tendering the funds (enclosing a check for the death benefit amt, payable to the ct) and pls, court, you figure out who should receive it. Then the benef's are notified of action and can file their responses w ct. After hearings, maybe full blown trial, judge eventually decides who sh/receive $ and releases funds/issuse ck. to that person. JM2cts.


3. "I do wonder if MS had been arrested at the same time as his BFF for manslaughter if the insurance company would of already had to pay out, since he would be being held on manslaughter charges and not murder charges."
Not likely, imo.
LI co letter to MS in late July stated, as MoD=homicide, & LE investigation was cont'ing, that co could not process claim yet. (see doc dump 1)
Seems imo, by then LI co's were clued in to LE looking at MS as being involved in causing TS's death.
CWW was arrested in late August (26, 27?) so if at same time, MS had bn arrested for manslaughter, doubtful, imo, that LI co's wd have already paid $ to MS, as they were on notice about MS' poss involvement, so wd hesitate to pay MS. Keep in mind, a manslaughter chg can later be upgraded to a murder chg. JM2cts.

We also have to keep in mind the standard of proof for criminal cases is "beyond a reasonable doubt" which is a higher standard than civil cases, like interpleaders, where standard of proof is by the preponderance of evidence.** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_burden_of_proof

Again, welcoming our W/S legal & life ins professionals and others to chime in, to correct or clarify. Thx in adv.


______________________________________________________________________
* "Interpleader is civil procedure that allows a plaintiff to initiate a lawsuit in order to compel two or more other parties to litigate a dispute. An interpleader action originates when the plaintiff holds property on behalf of another, but does not know to whom the property should be transferred. It is often used to resolve disputes arising under insurance contracts." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpleader

O/T: A common LI co-filed interpleader happens when a policyholder changes the benef's and that is disputed after death.
For ex, widowed Dad initially named (yrs ago) all three adult offspring as benef's, and then when two fall out of his favor, he filed new benef form naming only one offspring. Offspring may not be aware of existence of policy, or old or new benef designation. On his death, learning of policy, they complete & submit claim form to LI co, where employee sees conflicting claims. If the disfavored two allege that Dad was incompetent when he changed benef form, and if the three cannot agree among themselves to a settlement, LI co has no way of determining whether Dad was incompetent when he signed form changing beneficiaries. LI co may/is likely to file an interpleader action, to let the three sort it out/fight it out before a judge in ct. Interpleader is used not just for circumstances where crim charges may be filed.

** "Preponderance of the evidence, also known as balance of probabilities is the standard required in most civil cases.... ""The standard is met if the proposition is more likely to be true than not true. The standard is satisfied if there is greater than fifty percent chance that the proposition is true. Lord Denning, in Miller v. Minister of Pensions,[SUP][8]}[/SUP]described it simply as "more probable than not." " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_burden_of_proof. bbm
Thank you, SO much, for taking the time to extrapolate all of the LI technicalities for us.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
 
Thank you, SO much, for taking the time to extrapolate all of the LI technicalities for us.
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

'ohreally' posted some good questions. You are entirely welcome.

Would still welcome input from others handling life ins claims and more familiar w process.
 
Again, regarding my post about Wal-Mart, above on this page. Thanks for the comments, and the warmth extended to me. We collected about $3,000.00, and Wal-Mart was able to keep the rest. It's true, like they don't already make a ton of money, and to hoodwink their employees. I, too, very, very rarely go to Wal-Mart anymore, nor do any of my friends. We also have other options, and I make use of them instead. I believe that is so dishonest, and then to try and cheat the (some of them very poor) people out of what should have been their money. It's true, you are grieving your lost loved one, (and my mother was so very loved, it was devastating), you have to play games with a Wal-Mart legal team. I will save you all that they made us to, but it was absolutely ridiculous, and they were in the wrong, not us, although they did not admit it. Sorry to be so off topic, but I get infuriated when this comes up, especially at this time of year, and with what poor TS family is going through. Love to all, Katt

Are you saying that Walmart is the facilitators and beneficiaries of employees life insurance given and mandated by Walmart to all of their employees ?
 

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