The oversized Bloomingdale’s panties.

[UKGuy]

According to BDI he redressed her in what she was found in. If the fibers are on her 'real' underwear, why are they not on the other clothing he supposedly redressed her in? Fibers don't get to pick and choose which items they attach to...fibers don't take theories into account.

singularity,
BBM: Maybe they are and BPD are not telling us. Just like they never said Oh by the way the long johns were Burke's

Also there is no mention of any Ramsey touch-dna on JonBenet or her clothing, just the touch-dna from the mythical intruder.

Guess what BR's touch-dna should be on neither the long johns or the size-12's since these were clean on that night, and BR slept all night.

So if BR's fibers or touch-dna appear deposited on JonBenet or her clothing then that will more or less seal the deal for me. I know its not conclusive, but there are too many coincidences related to BR popping up, including his statement I was downstairs when everyone else was in bed.

.

 

[Ambitioned]

So if BR's fibers or touch-dna appear deposited on JonBenet or her clothing then that will more or less seal the deal for me. I know its not conclusive, but there are too many coincidences related to BR popping up, including his statement I was downstairs when everyone else was in bed.

.

BR's tDNA was on her nightie.

 

[UKGuy]

BR's tDNA was on her nightie.

Ambitioned,
Sure and that links him to the wine-cellar crime-scene, just as fibers from the parents link them, but touch-dna or fibers from his clothes on JonBenet's size-12's or long johns would dispel any idea he was not involved since he said he was asleep all night.

The touch-dna on the nightgown could be explained away as accidental secondary transfer. Not saying this is the case though.

.

 

[singularity]

singularity,
BBM: Maybe they are and BPD are not telling us. Just like they never said Oh by the way the long johns were Burke's

Also there is no mention of any Ramsey touch-dna on JonBenet or her clothing, just the touch-dna from the mythical intruder.

Guess what BR's touch-dna should be on neither the long johns or the size-12's since these were clean on that night, and BR slept all night.

So if BR's fibers or touch-dna appear deposited on JonBenet or her clothing then that will more or less seal the deal for me. I know its not conclusive, but there are too many coincidences related to BR popping up, including his statement I was downstairs when everyone else was in bed.

.

It's certainly possible that its evidence being withheld...we know there's a mountain yet to be revealed.

What we do know is that JOhn and Patsy's are in very critical spots. There's no mention of that being the case with Burke. Kolar...the biggest BDI advocate of all....had a chance to mention this but he failed to do so.

If we're gonna talk about coincidences, there's enough coincidences in Patsy's favor that would choke an elephant.

I don't see why Burke admitting going downstairs on Christmas night is perceived as some smoking gun. A child going downstairs Christmas night to play with his presents isn't surprising(I did it many times, I assume you did as well) and he realizes its no big deal or he wouldn't have even admitted doing it.

IMO the 'big enchilada' revealed in that show was how the family used flashlights to move around their house and how he conveniently placed it in John's hands.

 

[Lurkmaster]

Okay, I've been lurking on this forum for YEARS. I don't even know what theory I subscribe to because the whole thing is so convoluted. I've done my best to carefully read this entire thread, so please forgive me if I've missed anyone else already covering this. I have a 5 year old daughter, almost 6, so the same age as JonBenet was. And let me tell you, she wears some ridiculous things. -She would have no problem wearing underwear that's too big. Even if they were uncomfortable (which I'm not convinced those size 12s really would be). -She would very easily purposely select underwear to put on that were too big -- ESPECIALLY if they were a hard-won prize that had been bought for someone else and she had annoyed me to the point of just letting her have them. -She very often will wake up during the night and change her clothing for no reason at all. I've found her in different clothes in the morning than what I put her to bed in. I've found her in the morning having put her SHOES on for some reason. I've found her in different undies, no undies, MY undies. -She could certainly open a pack of underwear that were sealed with a plastic ring. She's perfectly capable of using scissors, has access to them, and we also use nail clippers for things like that which I have shown her how to do herself. -She owns several items of boy's clothing, including boy's long johns. She doesn't care who clothing was intended for - she just cares about what she likes. Now, I find it unlikely that Patsy, being into the beauty queen/pageant thing, would purchase for or allow JonBenet to purchase boys' clothes. But wasn't it said by someone that she was a tomboy? She could easily have taken Burke's long johns herself at any point. Point being, any of these things can be explained away innocently or seen as nefarious, depending on what you're looking for. I personally don't think the underwear mean anything at all. Edited to add that I apologize that this is all jumbling together in a big block. I did put paragraphs in there, but it keeps squashing everything all together despite my going back in to edit.

 

[kanzz]

Okay, I've been lurking on this forum for YEARS. I don't even know what theory I subscribe to because the whole thing is so convoluted. I've done my best to carefully read this entire thread, so please forgive me if I've missed anyone else already covering this. I have a 5 year old daughter, almost 6, so the same age as JonBenet was. And let me tell you, she wears some ridiculous things. -She would have no problem wearing underwear that's too big. Even if they were uncomfortable (which I'm not convinced those size 12s really would be). -She would very easily purposely select underwear to put on that were too big -- ESPECIALLY if they were a hard-won prize that had been bought for someone else and she had annoyed me to the point of just letting her have them. -She very often will wake up during the night and change her clothing for no reason at all. I've found her in different clothes in the morning than what I put her to bed in. I've found her in the morning having put her SHOES on for some reason. I've found her in different undies, no undies, MY undies. -She could certainly open a pack of underwear that were sealed with a plastic ring. She's perfectly capable of using scissors, has access to them, and we also use nail clippers for things like that which I have shown her how to do herself. -She owns several items of boy's clothing, including boy's long johns. She doesn't care who clothing was intended for - she just cares about what she likes. Now, I find it unlikely that Patsy, being into the beauty queen/pageant thing, would purchase for or allow JonBenet to purchase boys' clothes. But wasn't it said by someone that she was a tomboy? She could easily have taken Burke's long johns herself at any point. Point being, any of these things can be explained away innocently or seen as nefarious, depending on what you're looking for. I personally don't think the underwear mean anything at all. Edited to add that I apologize that this is all jumbling together in a big block. I did put paragraphs in there, but it keeps squashing everything all together despite my going back in to edit.

Thanks, Lurkmaster. Great post - very insightful.

ps - I often have formatting problems, too. It's sometimes helpful to use the Advanced function, then Preview, then Edit. (though it doesn't always work out just right for me). HTH.

 

[SecretaryGal]

Okay, I've been lurking on this forum for YEARS. I don't even know what theory I subscribe to because the whole thing is so convoluted. I've done my best to carefully read this entire thread, so please forgive me if I've missed anyone else already covering this. I have a 5 year old daughter, almost 6, so the same age as JonBenet was. And let me tell you, she wears some ridiculous things. -She would have no problem wearing underwear that's too big. Even if they were uncomfortable (which I'm not convinced those size 12s really would be). -She would very easily purposely select underwear to put on that were too big -- ESPECIALLY if they were a hard-won prize that had been bought for someone else and she had annoyed me to the point of just letting her have them. -She very often will wake up during the night and change her clothing for no reason at all. I've found her in different clothes in the morning than what I put her to bed in. I've found her in the morning having put her SHOES on for some reason. I've found her in different undies, no undies, MY undies. -She could certainly open a pack of underwear that were sealed with a plastic ring. She's perfectly capable of using scissors, has access to them, and we also use nail clippers for things like that which I have shown her how to do herself. -She owns several items of boy's clothing, including boy's long johns. She doesn't care who clothing was intended for - she just cares about what she likes. Now, I find it unlikely that Patsy, being into the beauty queen/pageant thing, would purchase for or allow JonBenet to purchase boys' clothes. But wasn't it said by someone that she was a tomboy? She could easily have taken Burke's long johns herself at any point. Point being, any of these things can be explained away innocently or seen as nefarious, depending on what you're looking for. I personally don't think the underwear mean anything at all. Edited to add that I apologize that this is all jumbling together in a big block. I did put paragraphs in there, but it keeps squashing everything all together despite my going back in to edit.

Welcome Lurkmaster!:wagon:

 

[Lurkmaster]

Welcome Lurkmaster!:wagon:

Thank you! I hope my squished comment is readable. I tried editing it per kanzz's suggestion, but nothing changed!

 

[UKGuy]

It's certainly possible that its evidence being withheld...we know there's a mountain yet to be revealed.

What we do know is that JOhn and Patsy's are in very critical spots. There's no mention of that being the case with Burke. Kolar...the biggest BDI advocate of all....had a chance to mention this but he failed to do so.

If we're gonna talk about coincidences, there's enough coincidences in Patsy's favor that would choke an elephant.

I don't see why Burke admitting going downstairs on Christmas night is perceived as some smoking gun. A child going downstairs Christmas night to play with his presents isn't surprising(I did it many times, I assume you did as well) and he realizes its no big deal or he wouldn't have even admitted doing it.

IMO the 'big enchilada' revealed in that show was how the family used flashlights to move around their house and how he conveniently placed it in John's hands.

singularity,

It's certainly possible that its evidence being withheld...we know there's a mountain yet to be revealed.

Of course there is, they have a stack of evidence cages at some Colorado Depositary.

What we do know is that JOhn and Patsy's are in very critical spots. There's no mention of that being the case with Burke. Kolar...the biggest BDI advocate of all....had a chance to mention this but he failed to do so.

If the case is BDI then its been sealed so Kolar cannot cite bona fide evidence in favor of a BDI, he would be contravening his employee contract with BPD and be violating various Colorado Child Statutes.

If we're gonna talk about coincidences, there's enough coincidences in Patsy's favor that would choke an elephant.

The case looks PDI because there is a mountain of PR's forensic evidence on JonBenet. Toss in Steve Thomas' PDI along with PR communicating telepathically with JR via the ransom note and you are almost done.

I don't see why Burke admitting going downstairs on Christmas night is perceived as some smoking gun.

Its not, but it does place Burke Ramsey in the same space as JonBenet at about the same time. Prior to Dr Phil parroting JR's version of events we never had a time-line for BR, other than JR's. We now have an independent time-line one not dependent on JR's memory.

IMO the 'big enchilada' revealed in that show was how the family used flashlights to move around their house and how he conveniently placed it in John's hands.

Sure but JR never explained how the flashlight then made its way to the kitchen table. He said he took it upstairs ...

More revealing than the flashlight for me was learning that JonBenet was dressed in Burke's long johns. That blows away all that undoing stuff and Patsy putting clean size-12's on JonBenet because they were a Wednesday pair, all gone in a puff of smoke.

.

 

[UKGuy]

Okay, I've been lurking on this forum for YEARS. I don't even know what theory I subscribe to because the whole thing is so convoluted. I've done my best to carefully read this entire thread, so please forgive me if I've missed anyone else already covering this. I have a 5 year old daughter, almost 6, so the same age as JonBenet was. And let me tell you, she wears some ridiculous things. -She would have no problem wearing underwear that's too big. Even if they were uncomfortable (which I'm not convinced those size 12s really would be). -She would very easily purposely select underwear to put on that were too big -- ESPECIALLY if they were a hard-won prize that had been bought for someone else and she had annoyed me to the point of just letting her have them. -She very often will wake up during the night and change her clothing for no reason at all. I've found her in different clothes in the morning than what I put her to bed in. I've found her in the morning having put her SHOES on for some reason. I've found her in different undies, no undies, MY undies. -She could certainly open a pack of underwear that were sealed with a plastic ring. She's perfectly capable of using scissors, has access to them, and we also use nail clippers for things like that which I have shown her how to do herself. -She owns several items of boy's clothing, including boy's long johns. She doesn't care who clothing was intended for - she just cares about what she likes. Now, I find it unlikely that Patsy, being into the beauty queen/pageant thing, would purchase for or allow JonBenet to purchase boys' clothes. But wasn't it said by someone that she was a tomboy? She could easily have taken Burke's long johns herself at any point. Point being, any of these things can be explained away innocently or seen as nefarious, depending on what you're looking for. I personally don't think the underwear mean anything at all. Edited to add that I apologize that this is all jumbling together in a big block. I did put paragraphs in there, but it keeps squashing everything all together despite my going back in to edit.

Lurkmaster,
Welcome, you should post more often, everyone's opinion counts.

Your daughter sounds delightful, obviously experimenting with clothes, etc. Patsy is claiming that JonBenet wanted the size-12's, so she put them in JonBenet's underwear drawer, for her use.

Yet no size-12's were found in the drawer or anywhere in the house by BPD detectives.

One of the housekeepers said that Patsy would dress JonBenet in Burke's old clothes, so JonBenet wearing Burke's long johns should not be that surprising.

Yet in the context of a staged crime-scene its important. JonBenet was left wearing over sized size-12 underwear and male long johns, hardly a masterclass in staging, particularly when she has a wardrobe of clothes upstairs.

With JonBenet's pink barbie nightgown dumped in the wine-cellar and her wearing the white gap top, it appears the R's did consider this aspect of her clothing to be important.

Were it not a homicide case then JonBenet liking over sized underwear, for whatever reason, would not matter. Most people think JonBenet's blood-stained size-6 underwear was swapped for the clean size-12's, this is the reason the size-12's are important not that JonBenet chose to wear them.

.

 

[Ambitioned]

Welcome! :wagon:

 

[UKGuy]

LONG JOHNS

Thought I would post this here. I was looking at some pictures of JonBenet enjoying Christmas and thought in one image taken in the main room with the bikes in the background and the Christmas Tree to her right.. JonBenet has her arms in air and appears to be dancing, she wearing what appears to be a white top and white long johns or similar.

In the picture where Burke and JonBenet are opening gifts she can be seen in the same white top and long johns.

In the very last picture taken of JonBenet :

on Christmas Morning she is wearing the same top and long johns.

So it crossed my mind that the size-12's were a childish replacement for the size-6 underwear and Burke's long johns were a childish replacement for the white long johns.

Assuming JonBenet just wore the same bedclothes she had on Christmas Eve and can be seen in all the photos?

.

 

[DeDee]

Respectfully shorted your response to focus on a few items. You made some great headway!

Excellent DeeDee! Thank you!
Great point on Burke's fibers!
I just had a thought.
Maybe the suitcase was used to attempt to rid some evidence from the scene. Maybe that's what JR was doing in that missing time. He admits he took the suitcase down to the basement in an interview (I will look up later for a link) and states he didn't put it under the window. <RSBM>

The pineapple was never even on their radar "and hence" was left out. Not realizing the impact on the case later. I think that is the reason their behaviors changed when interviewed regarding the pineapple. They were pissed they missed that item and couldn't explain it so they pretended they knew nothing about it.

I do not think the Rs knew JB had eaten pineapple. That was not Patsy's set up. When the story first broke, the NE headlines were that an Intruder broke into the home, lured JonBenet to the K where he fed he pineapple before killing her.

Maybe it was their intention to move the suitcase after the detectives left along with the body. But they never left. So it had to be "found".
John forgot to hide the suitcase when he couldn't get it out of the house (maybe he planned to pretend it was their suitcase for the flight and dispose of later).

The Rs were expecting Police to find JonBenet and when they didn't JR did their job for them. No way were there plans to take JB out into the cold and leave her in the woods or anything similar b/c she had to have a proper burial.

When he was basically forced to discover the body, the suitcase gets thrown in as a escape route for the intruder.

Many photos have been seen of the hard Samsonite suitcase that belonged to JARs mother so we are not sure of its exact positioning at the window, are we? Even in 1996, we were using lightweight luggage on wheels for traveling. I believe it was Lou Smit who named the suitcase as a means to escape.

If the fibers in the blanket and pillow case withing the suitcase matched those found on JonBenet, there has to be a explanation. Could it be that she was initially on that blanket on the floor at some point before the staging occurred? Maybe the parents found her ON the blanket when they found her body initially.
So that needed to be rid of. Maybe JonBenet and BR were looking at that Dr. Suess book and it was also left on the blanket. The initial crime scene if you will.
That's the reason it was found all in the suitcase. They probably had no idea that JAR semen was on the blanket at all

.
Highly probable. You are correct in that JBs body was in contact with that blue bedding found inside of the suitcase due to the fibers present.

It's even possible that the suitcase always held those secret items and BR was aware of the suitcase and it's items. Maybe he learned it from his brother. JMOO.

Sure. Although, I doubt that JAR kept the Dr S book in the suitcase. I believe JARs bedding was inside the suitcase ever since he brought it home from college whenever that was. The book is inscribed to JAR although the person who gave it has never been named for privacy reasons. Is it highly probable the sketches in the book were something BR and JBR giggled about? Remember, the nude characters would poop anywhere (cue BR scatological behavior) even in the hay.

This explains the weird items in the random suitcase. It was never random. It was a private hiding place for secret items.

Or a handy dandy pedophile's kit...

Maybe the photos tossed downstairs was in the same place the suitcase was originally hid. I'd love to know what those photos were of. They had to have been inappropriate.

Those photos remain a mystery in an enigma. I've not seen them described as inappropriate but more "cutesy". There is a stack of colored pictures on the basement floor to the left side of the WC. We can't tell much about them. PR talks about photos being by her paper cutter in the laundry area of the basement, iirc.

 

[BoldBear]

Just curious about the fibers matching the textiles found in the suitcase. Were the fibers confirmed to be a 100% match or a probable match? Textile fiber matches are usually based on probabilities. I guess I need to do some reading on this so I can get more of an understanding of Fiber Evidence. My head is completely empty in this area.

 

[BoldBear]

I'm also have trouble understanding why a collections of photos of JB would be nefarious. JB was a little girl who was in pageants. It doesn't seem abnormal that Patsy would be creating a portfolio of some kind. Granted if your taking photos of one child, you probably will be taking photos of both, but JB was Patsy's project. She was obsessing over her.

 

[Ambitioned]

LONG JOHNS

In the picture where Burke and JonBenet are opening gifts she can be seen in the same white top and long johns.

In the very last picture taken of JonBenet :

on Christmas Morning she is wearing the same top and long johns.

So it crossed my mind that the size-12's were a childish replacement for the size-6 underwear and Burke's long johns were a childish replacement for the white long johns.

Assuming JonBenet just wore the same bedclothes she had on Christmas Eve and can be seen in all the photos?

.

White or pink? They look pink to me but it could be my eyes.

Either way it's all so intriguing.

 

[Ambitioned]

I'm also have trouble understanding why a collections of photos of JB would be nefarious. JB was a little girl who was in pageants. It doesn't seem abnormal that Patsy would be creating a portfolio of some kind. Granted if your taking photos of one child, you probably will be taking photos of both, but JB was Patsy's project. She was obsessing over her.

It's the fact that the detectives were asking about it. Something raised a red flag and prompted them to ask.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?27176-JB-s-picture-in-the-laundry-room

 

[UKGuy]

White or pink? They look pink to me but it could be my eyes.

Either way it's all so intriguing.

Ambitioned,
Yes it could be pink. The flash certainly makes the one where JonBenet has her arms in the air look white.

Yet I can see pink in the images.

.

 

[Ambitioned]

Ambitioned,
Yes it could be pink. The flash certainly makes the one where JonBenet has her arms in the air look white.

Yet I can see pink in the images.

.

So, the ones on the bed are the same or different ones?

 

[UKGuy]

So, the ones on the bed are the same or different ones?

Ambitioned.
Definitely different. At the end of the arms on the pink top they flare out. If you find the complete photograph of JonBenet and Burke opening their Christmas presents, you can see JonBenet's top and bottom are white and the end of the arms do not flare out. its the same with the photo where JonBenet has her arms raised, surrounded by bikes, her top and bottom are completely white!

Also in JonBenet's last ever photo, if you check the front of her top it has what looks like a design, a pattern, or a ribbon near the neck, just where the gold cross hangs. On the shoulder there is some kind of pattern which appears distinct from the torso?

Again in the large last ever photo you can see the end of JonBenet's right hand and that the arms do not flare out.

So that's two different pictures showing the pink top is different and confirming that the top and bottoms are indeed white, along with the third, JonBenet with her bike, also showing her in a white top and bottom.

So my original assumption might be correct.

From memory did Patsy not say at some interview that she looked for the pink bottoms, i.e. JonBenet wore them the night before, failing to find them she dressed JonBenet in the (burke's) long johns?

Yet we know from the photos that JonBenet was wearing a white top and bottom, so is my memory deficient?

.