The oversized Bloomingdale’s panties.

[Heymom]

I agree. It would almost certainly exclude PR. She dressed JBR for the night according to her and JR. She knew ( or one would expect she knew) what kind of underwear JBR was wearing that night getting ready for bed. There was no need for PR to grab a certain panties, since she was the only one with that particular knowledge (expected). It would have to be BR or JR. This is a bit strange to me.

-Nin

Seeing the photographs of the size-12 panties and the long johns with huge urine stains on them, I am even more convinced that neither JR nor PR put JBR in those articles of clothing. I will have to think seriously about how this whole thing may have gone down. All this time, it seemed that the release of JBR's bladder took place before she was wiped down and redressed, but if these really were what she was wearing, then she released in these clothes and was never redressed after that.

 

[Ambitioned]

Seeing the photographs of the size-12 panties and the long johns with huge urine stains on them, I am even more convinced that neither JR nor PR put JBR in those articles of clothing. I will have to think seriously about how this whole thing may have gone down. All this time, it seemed that the release of JBR's bladder took place before she was wiped down and redressed, but if these really were what she was wearing, then she released in these clothes and was never redressed after that.

I hate talking about her like this but how soon after clinical death does the bladder release? I'm not a medical person but my mom is. I suppose I could ask her.

I do know that shortly after death, all muscles in the body start to relax. I'm wondering if she were redressed and then the bladder emptied not right away but soon thereafter.

 

[PositiveLight]

IMHO she was either found nude from the waist down and cleaned and redressed by whatever was close by. OR BR dressed her.
At some point she had more blood on her and was wiped down by someone in that home. I strongly believe they thought she was dead when she was redressed. But she wasn't yet. If BR dressed her he did it without thinking of what the items would look like when found. He may have just wanted to cover up what he did.
Or the parents found her half nude and cleaned her off and took her downstairs to the basement. Maybe grabbed some long johns of BR from a donation bag and found the panties in the presents for the older family member and used them.
IF the parents did the redressing, they didn't want it to point to them. They wouldn't dress her "pretty".
But what jumps out at me is they were trying to avoid being potential suspects and in covering their part, the inadvertently pointed straight back at them.
An intruder wouldn't care what she looked like after the crime. She would just be tossed away or possibly posed to freak out whoever found her.
IF BR redressed her, he did it to avoid being caught by his parents.
IF the parents redressed her, they did it to point towards a stranger that didn't know her routine.
Either way, the redressing/staging was to avoid being suspect.
It reminds me of what was said at the end of the 911 call by Burke.
"What DID you find?"
Like he was thinking he knew where HE left her and HOW he left her and was actually curious why his parents were calling 911.
If he had been eavesdropping on the convo between the parents, he might have thought that his "cover" of the crime worked but couldn't figure out why his parents
were telling 911 that she was kidnapped because as far as he knew she was still where he left her. He was trying to figure out where the Ransom note came from etc etc. Not realizing his parents had already figured out what he did and had spent the majority of the night staging the scene. Maybe they just told him to remain in his room and say he slept all night and heard and saw nothing. But he was still CURIOUS what had happened to her body etc.
Maybe the parents just wanted to wait to deal with BR after the cops left and told him to keep his mouth shut no matter what. JMOO

 

[PositiveLight]

I hate talking about her like this but how soon after clinical death does the bladder release? I'm not a medical person but my mom is. I suppose I could ask her.

I do know that shortly after death, all muscles in the body start to relax. I'm wondering if she were redressed and then the bladder emptied not right away but soon thereafter.

http://lithium.imascientist.org.au/2012/05/24/do-you-lose-control-of-you-bladder-when-you-die/

The thing here that is hard to really understand though is they said she was brain dead before the ligature was applied. If she was fully brain dead, then her bladder may have released prior to the strangulation. (possibility)
But what we do know is she was on her tummy when her bladder released due to the area that was stained with urine.
I can tell you this. As a nursing home nurse, it was common if a patient was dying, that simply turning them to change their depends, would cause them to take their last breath. But that is usually from a terminal or natural death. The lungs fill with fluid and basically you drown. It always seemed if they were rolled to their right side, they would pass away. I believe it was from the fluid shift from the lungs and the pressure of the heavy lungs on the heart. I had this happen multiple times during hospice care for patients.
I can't help but wonder from a medical standpoint, if she was having seizures or death rattles from her lungs filling with fluid in those last moments. I do not think her death was at all peaceful. I wonder sometimes if John's utterance of her looking peaceful when he found her stemmed from him possibly ending her suffering and giving her peace.
So regardless of when her bladder released, we do know from the evidence that she was on her tummy when it did release.
I think the only reason they wiped her down was to rid the body of blood evidence not necessarily urine stains.
Bladder release does vary depending on the manner of death and if the bladder had urine in it. Usually I found in natural deaths the patient had long stopped drinking fluids and therefore had no urine output.
With a sudden unnatural death, I would lean towards if death happened immediately vs. over a small amount of time. like 45- 2 hours in her case. It could be possible it was leaking out steadily after the head injury and not all at once. But she would still need to be on her tummy during this time for the pattern of urine on her panties and long johns.

 

[kanzz]

I hate talking about her like this but how soon after clinical death does the bladder release? I'm not a medical person but my mom is. I suppose I could ask her.

I do know that shortly after death, all muscles in the body start to relax. I'm wondering if she were redressed and then the bladder emptied not right away but soon thereafter.

Because of the serious head injury, it might be difficult to tell. But it was probably fairly soon after her death if not during the process of the ligature strangulation, during which she might have even had a seizure.

 

[Duchess518]

IMHO she was either found nude from the waist down and cleaned and redressed by whatever was close by. OR BR dressed her.
At some point she had more blood on her and was wiped down by someone in that home. I strongly believe they thought she was dead when she was redressed. But she wasn't yet. If BR dressed her he did it without thinking of what the items would look like when found. He may have just wanted to cover up what he did.
Or the parents found her half nude and cleaned her off and took her downstairs to the basement. Maybe grabbed some long johns of BR from a donation bag and found the panties in the presents for the older family member and used them.
IF the parents did the redressing, they didn't want it to point to them. They wouldn't dress her "pretty".
But what jumps out at me is they were trying to avoid being potential suspects and in covering their part, the inadvertently pointed straight back at them.
An intruder wouldn't care what she looked like after the crime. She would just be tossed away or possibly posed to freak out whoever found her.
IF BR redressed her, he did it to avoid being caught by his parents.
IF the parents redressed her, they did it to point towards a stranger that didn't know her routine.
Either way, the redressing/staging was to avoid being suspect.
It reminds me of what was said at the end of the 911 call by Burke.
"What DID you find?"
Like he was thinking he knew where HE left her and HOW he left her and was actually curious why his parents were calling 911.
If he had been eavesdropping on the convo between the parents, he might have thought that his "cover" of the crime worked but couldn't figure out why his parents
were telling 911 that she was kidnapped because as far as he knew she was still where he left her. He was trying to figure out where the Ransom note came from etc etc. Not realizing his parents had already figured out what he did and had spent the majority of the night staging the scene. Maybe they just told him to remain in his room and say he slept all night and heard and saw nothing. But he was still CURIOUS what had happened to her body etc.
Maybe the parents just wanted to wait to deal with BR after the cops left and told him to keep his mouth shut no matter what. JMOO

The whole staging thing is so confusing. I read that PR told cops that the clothes On JB when she was found was not the ones she went to bed with. So a few things pop up in my mind...

JR redressed her and did all the staging. PR never saw her body until she was brought up from the basement. Maybe she didn't know everything that happened

BR redressed her.

In my opinion it's very strange to say that to police if you already knew this. It's kind of like saying HERES A BIG GIANT CLUE!

 

[Ambitioned]

IMHO she was either found nude from the waist down and cleaned and redressed by whatever was close by. OR BR dressed her.
At some point she had more blood on her and was wiped down by someone in that home. I strongly believe they thought she was dead when she was redressed. But she wasn't yet. If BR dressed her he did it without thinking of what the items would look like when found. He may have just wanted to cover up what he did.
Or the parents found her half nude and cleaned her off and took her downstairs to the basement. Maybe grabbed some long johns of BR from a donation bag and found the panties in the presents for the older family member and used them.
IF the parents did the redressing, they didn't want it to point to them. They wouldn't dress her "pretty".
But what jumps out at me is they were trying to avoid being potential suspects and in covering their part, the inadvertently pointed straight back at them.
An intruder wouldn't care what she looked like after the crime. She would just be tossed away or possibly posed to freak out whoever found her.
IF BR redressed her, he did it to avoid being caught by his parents.
IF the parents redressed her, they did it to point towards a stranger that didn't know her routine.
Either way, the redressing/staging was to avoid being suspect.
It reminds me of what was said at the end of the 911 call by Burke.
"What DID you find?"
Like he was thinking he knew where HE left her and HOW he left her and was actually curious why his parents were calling 911.
If he had been eavesdropping on the convo between the parents, he might have thought that his "cover" of the crime worked but couldn't figure out why his parents
were telling 911 that she was kidnapped because as far as he knew she was still where he left her. He was trying to figure out where the Ransom note came from etc etc. Not realizing his parents had already figured out what he did and had spent the majority of the night staging the scene. Maybe they just told him to remain in his room and say he slept all night and heard and saw nothing. But he was still CURIOUS what had happened to her body etc.
Maybe the parents just wanted to wait to deal with BR after the cops left and told him to keep his mouth shut no matter what. JMOO

Great thoughts!

I'm not ruling out Burke but am leaning towards the parents redressing because of the fibers in the crotch area and because Patsy's fibers were all over the crime scene. Also because everything else points to them diverting. ("I don't know why that would be there." Throwing everyone under the bus, etc. )

 

[Ambitioned]

Thank you kanzz and PL.

I wonder sometimes if John's utterance of her looking peaceful when he found her stemmed from him possibly ending her suffering and giving her peace.

I wonder too! The "looking peaceful" comment makes sense in that context.

 

[Ambitioned]

The whole staging thing is so confusing. I read that PR told cops that the clothes On JB when she was found was not the ones she went to bed with. So a few things pop up in my mind...

JR redressed her and did all the staging. PR never saw her body until she was brought up from the basement. Maybe she didn't know everything that happened

BR redressed her.

In my opinion it's very strange to say that to police if you already knew this. It's kind of like saying HERES A BIG GIANT CLUE!

But if she never saw the body, how did her fibers end up in the ligature and duct tape?

This case, man.... :beersign:

 

[PositiveLight]

The whole staging thing is so confusing. I read that PR told cops that the clothes On JB when she was found was not the ones she went to bed with. So a few things pop up in my mind...

JR redressed her and did all the staging. PR never saw her body until she was brought up from the basement. Maybe she didn't know everything that happened

BR redressed her.

In my opinion it's very strange to say that to police if you already knew this. It's kind of like saying HERES A BIG GIANT CLUE!

It reallllly is very confusing!
Truly the only ones who could answer this question are the three remaining members in the home that night. We can guess and theorize all day and night but unless someone tells the truth we may never know. Although maybe the truth lies in the evidence we aren't privy to. But I do agree! PR was like holding a huge sign when she said that.

 

[PositiveLight]

Great thoughts!

I'm not ruling out Burke but am leaning towards the parents redressing because of the fibers in the crotch area and because Patsy's fibers were all over the crime scene. Also because everything else points to them diverting. ("I don't know why that would be there." Throwing everyone under the bus, etc. )

That's the piece of evidence if anything that points to the parents doing the redressing.
The fibers from their clothing being on the panties.

 

[PositiveLight]

Because of the serious head injury, it might be difficult to tell. But it was probably fairly soon after her death if not during the process of the ligature strangulation, during which she might have even had a seizure.

Many who have seizures loose bladder control during them.That head wound probably caused seizures, I would imagine.
Which would have been horrifying to the parents or BR. I could see why they might end her suffering if that was occurring.

 

[kanzz]

Great thoughts!

I'm not ruling out Burke but am leaning towards the parents redressing because of the fibers in the crotch area and because Patsy's fibers were all over the crime scene. Also because everything else points to them diverting. ("I don't know why that would be there." Throwing everyone under the bus, etc. )

Might be possible for the fibers in the crotch area to be secondary transfer from BR. But I still think the jacket fibers on the mouth tape are because PR placed the tape there as part of the staging to go along with the cover-up and her IDI scenario. JMO

 

[PositiveLight]

Might be possible for the fibers in the crotch area to be secondary transfer from BR. But I still think the jacket fibers on the mouth tape are because PR placed the tape there as part of the staging to go along with the cover-up and her IDI scenario. JMO

If you step back and look at the crime scene...
You can clearly see what the Ramsey's "wanted" to be concluded.
Although, they made tons of mistakes.
But I think the reason JR and PR were "offended" is because most aren't buying the story they are selling.
I'm sure PR thought she was doing an Oscar worthy performance with the Lazarus comment.
She was in Miss America and won an award for her performance! How dare someone not buy her performance! :dramaqueen:

 

[kanzz]

Many who have seizures loose bladder control during them.That head wound probably caused seizures, I would imagine.
Which would have been horrifying to the parents or BR. I could see why they might end her suffering if that was occurring.

She might or might not have had a seizure with her head injury. I've seen both subdural hemorrhage and subaracnoid hemorrhage and haven't seen seizure with either in my 30+ years of experience, but that doesn't mean it can't happen. There is also a slight chance that she could have regained consciousness for some short period of time after the head blow, but I'd rather believe she did not and I think it is unlikely.
She was not brain dead prior to the ligature strangulation. This is evidenced by the AR. If she had been brain dead, she would not have sustained petechial hemorrhage to her lungs. She was still breathing at the time she was strangled. A brain dead person has no brain function, therefore has no circulatory or respiratory function... they are dead unless they are on life support.

 

[PositiveLight]

She might or might not have had a seizure with her head injury. I've seen both subdural hemorrhage and subaracnoid hemorrhage and haven't seen seizure with either in my 30+ years of experience, but that doesn't mean it can't happen. There is also a slight chance that she could have regained consciousness for some short period of time after the head blow, but I'd rather believe she did not and I think it is unlikely.
She was not brain dead prior to the ligature strangulation. This is evidenced by the AR. If she had been brain dead, she would not have sustained petechial hemorrhage to her lungs. She was still breathing at the time she was strangled. A brain dead person has no brain function, therefore has no circulatory or respiratory function... they are dead unless they are on life support.

You know how the right side of the brain controls the left part of the body?
Are there any extra wounds on the left side of the body that may point to erratic uncontrollable movements?

 

[kanzz]

You know how the right side of the brain controls the left part of the body?
Are there any extra wounds on the left side of the body that may point to erratic uncontrollable movements?

I'm not aware of anything except what's in the AR. I can't really say that her wounds appear as though they are secondary to a seizure, but I guess I can't say they aren't either.

 

[PositiveLight]

I'm not aware of anything except what's in the AR. I can't really say that her wounds appear as though they are secondary to a seizure, but I guess I can't say they aren't either.

True true.
Plus you'd have to figure in if the blood had started shunting to the most vital organs after the head injury. If the blood was shunting to the vital organs, scratches or bruising might not be very noticeable. :thinking:
I want to believe she never regained consciousness honestly. I don't want to think of her suffering so brutally.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

It appears to me that the R were unsure about staging JB's clothes because of the possible inconsistencies and efforts to fit their version . Despite those efforts, however at the end of the day JB ended up with her new sequined gap top she wore to the party which is strange and big panties and a weird boys' shorts on her.
We know Patsy gave conflicting statements abt that, too.
They probably changed their version about what she wore to bed at some point that night or later on until their first deposition.
I'm thinking that staging within staging was referred to the clothing also.
We have to come up with a plausible theory answering what, when and who questions.

1 version Blanket could be a tool to cover her when she was naked/ half naked or staged to be found naked.
2 version Nightgown could be added as a decoy to suggest that was what JB wore to bed and taken to basement by and intruder and then intruder took it off. etc :gaah:

 

[UKGuy]

It appears to me that the R were unsure about staging JB's clothes because of the possible inconsistencies and efforts to fit their version . Despite those efforts, however at the end of the day JB ended up with her new sequined gap top she wore to the party which is strange and big panties and a weird boys' shorts on her.
We know Patsy gave conflicting statements abt that, too.
They probably changed their version about what she wore to bed at some point that night or later on until their first deposition.
I'm thinking that staging within staging was referred to the clothing also.
We have to come up with a plausible theory answering what, when and who questions.

1 version Blanket could be a tool to cover her when she was naked/ half naked or staged to be found naked.
2 version Nightgown could be added as a decoy to suggest that was what JB wore to bed and taken to basement by and intruder and then intruder took it off. etc :gaah:

MURDERER_SERVANT,
You could be right?

Here is my take for what it's worth. Working backwards as per Kolar ...

12. JonBenet is placed into the wine-cellar along with other forensic evidence.

11. Patsy wraps JonBenet in the white blanket to hide the urine soaked long johns and size-12's.

10. Patsy ties the paintbrush to the ligature.

09. Patsy sticks the duct tape on JonBenet's mouth

08. JR wipes the blood off JonBenet's thighs.

07. BR ligature asphyxiates JonBenet.

06. BR hides the blood stained size-6 underwear along with her pink pajama bottoms.

05. BR redresses JonBenet in the size-12's and his long johns.

04. BR assaults JonBenet assuming she is dead.

03. BR stabs at JonBenets body with one of her toys.

02. BR whacks JonBenet on the head.

01. BR and JonBenet are playing doctor in her bedroom.

00. BR and JonBenet snack pineapple.


I'm assuming the parents did not dress JonBenet in oversized underwear and male long johns. It could be the parents intended to redress JonBenet in the pink barbie nightgown and for some reason it fell through. Forensically it might have been becoming to messy for them?

.