The oversized Bloomingdale’s panties.

[RickshawFan]

DEAR BABY JESUS. Just when this case can't get any weirder or darker.... feces enters the picture. This is true it is a possible sign of sexual abuse. I agree also about the child purposely soiling themselves to keep a abuser at bay. Also can show signs of rectal issues. Whether that was considered in the abuse factor or not. No links. Just what I've been taught by SANE nurses that do the evidence kits after a rape or alleged abuse.
Also though she might not have cleaned herself properly after pottying.
But finding feces all over different places...? I wonder if they tested it for DNA? To see whose it was.
I can understand halfway on the panties that it might be innocent.... but not when its found in all different type places.
JMOO:notgood::notgood:

I should probably have put this in the feces thread....
Maybe PR smeared the fecal matter in JBR 's room. All staged to get sympathy for herself.

 

[UKGuy]

I am new to theJBR forum, not WS, so bear with me....Has it ever been proposed that JBR herself put on the outsize underpants?

My thought goes like this:

1. JBR imagined "big girl" panties would keep her safe from having her private parts assaulted because "who would do that to a big girl?" Or, "I'll be a big girl so I can protect myself" Or, "this stuff doesn't happen to big girls, so I'm going to pretend I'm a big girl." Or even, "Mom knows I have the Wednesday ones on and I messed up. I'll just put the big Wednesday ones on. That way she won't notice."
2. JBR got this idea in part (or altogether) because PR would berate her, saying: "Put your big girl panties on" and JBR didn't realize it was a metaphor 'cos she was 6 and kids take metaphors at face value. JBR knew to wear the Wednesday ones "'cos you're supposed to wear the Wednesday ones on Wednesdays."


Question: who buys day-of-the-week underpants for a middle-schooler? I can't even imagine the 12-14 underwear was for a niece. I had some of those when I was eight. At 12? Are you kidding me? I wouldn't have been caught dead in underpants like that. In the locker room changing for PE?


My speculation....

RickshawFan,
All we really know about the size-12's is that Patsy said she purchased them on a trip to New York and had them wrapped and mailed back to Boulder along with other stuff.

None of the above has ever been fully established, I've seen no receipts, invoices, or delivery notes, etc.

Its just Patsy's word, personally I harbor a suspicion that the size-12's originated somewhere else.

Patsy says JonBenet wanted the size-12's, so she opened them and placed them into JonBenet's underwear drawer, so why not just phone Bloomingdales and order another pack of underwear, and tell JonBenet those are for Jenny's Christmas, etc?

Patsy stated JonBenet was present when she purchased the underwear so I would assume JonBenet would have age appropriate underwear bought for her, i.e. no size-12's, those are for Jenny.

So there should really be six-pairs of Bloomingdales size-6 underwear left in JonBenet's underwear drawer minus the Wednesday pair she was wearing when assaulted?

Why, because Patsy said she purchased Bloomingdale underwear for JonBenet and Jenny!

Question: who buys day-of-the-week underpants for a middle-schooler? I can't even imagine the 12-14 underwear was for a niece. I had some of those when I was eight. At 12? Are you kidding me? I wouldn't have been caught dead in underpants like that. In the locker room changing for PE?

ITA. Also who wants underwear as a Christmas gift anyway?

.

 

[dgfred]

Would not a simple explanation be that a person not familiar with the underwear routine put them on her? Like JR or BR? Or maybe JBR just felt like putting them on herself.

 

[Lamima]

Also, could be that she kept them for down the line when JBR would fit in them. I am sure at some point my DDs had undies that were not their size in their drawer. Maye bought on sale or they were super cute and didn't have the size they were currently wearing. Or grabbed the wrong size by accident. I just did that for my 17 year old...she handed me a pack and I didn't even check the size until we got home and it was 2 sizes too big. PR says she bought them for her niece though, so maybe she did but JBR kept bugging her that she wanted them or she second guessed giving her niece undies for Xmas.

Though my thoughts are more that they were in the pile of wrapped gifts in the basement and JBR was taken down there and the package was opened there to put clean undies on her...then the others were placed in the drawer.

I have a few questions...
Were the Ramseys packed for their trip? Entirely? Bags/luggage closed?
Where were their bags/luggage?
Why weren't the bags and wrapped gifts placed in their car for the drive to the airport or placed by the door to go in the car? Or were they?
Did the LE look for the Bloomi undies package in the trash?
When BR was sent off with friends, did he take a bag/suitcase with him? Did LE search that before they took it from the house?
Was JBR missing smaller size days of the week undies (did she have smaller size and larger size in her drawer)?

 

[dogperson]

I think somebody put Wednesday panties on her because she was already wearing the Wednesday panties in her correct size. Something got on those that would point to the perpetrator so they had to be discarded, hidden, flushed down the toilet, etc. The person may be thinking if LE makes a list of the items JBR was wearing they might not notice/list the size, so that whoever dressed JBR Christmas morning wouldn't realize the panties were switched. The problem is, this all leads back to the family. Who else would know there was another pair of Wednesday panties in the house? Who else would care if she was redressed in the same day of the week panties? Only a family member or housekeeper would know this stuff and I understand the housekeeper was cleared.

 

[reintarnation]

To BDIs: How do these panties fit in to the theory (which I am believing more and more)?

This piece of evidence was always the most confounding to me. I reasoned PDI to hide evidence of a toileting accident that precipitated JBR's death. But if BDI, what is the reason for needing to change her underwear?

In terms of BDI, I lean more toward abandoning the idea that the panties were changed. Maybe PR wasn't lying about what JBR was wearing at all. Maybe JBR was never redressed. ???

 

[otg]

To BDIs: How do these panties fit in to the theory (which I am believing more and more)?

This piece of evidence was always the most confounding to me. I reasoned PDI to hide evidence of a toileting accident that precipitated JBR's death. But if BDI, what is the reason for needing to change her underwear?

In terms of BDI, I lean more toward abandoning the idea that the panties were changed. Maybe PR wasn't lying about what JBR was wearing at all. Maybe JBR was never redressed. ???

JMO, but by what we know about how the evidence of a sexual assault (regardless of what manner that was done), an attempt was made to erase that evidence (e.g., wiping the blood from her legs) and make it look like the crime was simply a failed kidnap attempt. I imagine that whatever panties she had on when the assault took place had blood on them. For that reason, they had to disappear. How that was accomplished (fireplace, backpack, unsearched coat pocket, golf bag, whatever), we'll probably never know..

 

[moonriverfarm]

Maybe Burke put the panties on her body. A kid would just grab a a pair from the drawer.

 

[reintarnation]

JMO, but by what we know about how the evidence of a sexual assault (regardless of what manner that was done), an attempt was made to erase that evidence (e.g., wiping the blood from her legs) and make it look like the crime was simply a failed kidnap attempt. I imagine that whatever panties she had on when the assault took place had blood on them. For that reason, they had to disappear. How that was accomplished (fireplace, backpack, unsearched coat pocket, golf bag, whatever), we'll probably never know..

That's what I figure if BDI, except her original panties had to go back on her in order to get blood on them. Or I guess he could have pushed them aside as opposed to taking them completely off.

If the panties were changed, it was because the originals had evidence of the motive.

 

[SecretaryGal]

JMO, but by what we know about how the evidence of a sexual assault (regardless of what manner that was done), an attempt was made to erase that evidence (e.g., wiping the blood from her legs) and make it look like the crime was simply a failed kidnap attempt. I imagine that whatever panties she had on when the assault took place had blood on them. For that reason, they had to disappear. How that was accomplished (fireplace, backpack, unsearched coat pocket, golf bag, whatever), we'll probably never know..

I think there were items that were hidden in the golf bag and taken out of the house by Patsy's sister, Pam.

 

[relay]

That's what I figure if BDI, except her original panties had to go back on her in order to get blood on them. Or I guess he could have pushed them aside as opposed to taking them completely off.

If the panties were changed, it was because the originals had evidence of the motive.

Is it fact that JBR's small size Wednesday's panties were never recovered? If they were recovered, do you or does anyone know where they were recovered from? Was there any evidence found on them?

 

[reintarnation]

Is it fact that JBR's small size Wednesday's panties were never recovered? If they were recovered, do you or does anyone know where they were recovered from? Was there any evidence found on them?

I'm not even 100% certain that she ever had a Bloomis set in her own size?

 

[UKGuy]

I'm not even 100% certain that she ever had a Bloomis set in her own size?

reintarnation,
Sure, but was there a missing pair of size-6 underwear, say a Wednesday pair? Patsy was never going to redress JonBenet in size-12's just to demonstrate she was wearing a Wednesday pair, since the mere size defeats the aesthetic motive.

So it was likely a male thinking on his feet, who goes something like this: So this size-12 pack here looks OK, now whats next Oh, a Wednesday pair, right lets get them on, Oh they fell down a bit, OK lets put long johns on to hold them up out of sight?

.

 

[relay]

I'm not even 100% certain that she ever had a Bloomis set in her own size?

Thanks reintarnation .

 

[Winterchild87]

To BDIs: How do these panties fit in to the theory (which I am believing more and more)?

This piece of evidence was always the most confounding to me. I reasoned PDI to hide evidence of a toileting accident that precipitated JBR's death. But if BDI, what is the reason for needing to change her underwear?

In terms of BDI, I lean more toward abandoning the idea that the panties were changed. Maybe PR wasn't lying about what JBR was wearing at all. Maybe JBR was never redressed. ???

My reasoning is this:

At the point of expiration, the human body involuntarily evacuates (ie soils and urinates). Indication is that most of the underwear in her drawer were soiled (or at least stained). Going on the theory that BDI and one or both parents covered, I can imagine that in a panic one of them (probably JR) cleaned up the soiling and tried to find a clean pair of underwear (wanting to circumvent humiliation over it).

Maybe JBR just found the cleanest undies she could after she wet her bed, not caring about the size, since the long johns went over?

 

[andreww]

I think there were items that were hidden in the golf bag and taken out of the house by Patsy's sister, Pam.

Pam never took the golf bag. John asked for it but everything in the basement was off limits.


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[andreww]

I'm not even 100% certain that she ever had a Bloomis set in her own size?

The fact that Patsy developed a huge case of ramnesia about buying the panties, where they were kept, and what happened to the remainder of the size 12s, tells me JBR didn't simply put those size 12s on innocently.


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[andreww]

My reasoning is this:

At the point of expiration, the human body involuntarily evacuates (ie soils and urinates). Indication is that most of the underwear in her drawer were soiled (or at least stained). Going on the theory that BDI and one or both parents covered, I can imagine that in a panic one of them (probably JR) cleaned up the soiling and tried to find a clean pair of underwear (wanting to circumvent humiliation over it).

Maybe JBR just found the cleanest undies she could after she wet her bed, not caring about the size, since the long johns went over?

Then why the deception about purchasing them, and what happened to the remainder of the size 12s? They weren't in JBs drawer, but they were in the house somewhere because Patsy ended up with them.


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[Heymom]

This was always one of the more confusing elements of the cover-up. A little girl who wore size 5 or 6 panties would not be able to wear a size 12 pair. There is no way JonBenet was wearing those panties before she died - she wouldn't have been able to walk and they'd have been bunched up in her over-pants. I don't think Patsy would have ever consented to give JonBenet the wrong panties, and anyway, they were in the basement at the time and so were hidden along with the other gifts.

No, I do believe that someone had changed her underwear because the original pair was ruined during her death and what took place afterward. There was probably more blood than the 2 small spots left on the new panties, and likely more urine as well (not sure about fecal matter as she still had the pineapple in her intestine). I never heard that the original panties were recovered. Maybe they were hidden in clothing that was taken out of the house by Pam Paugh (I thought she had gotten the golf bag, thank goodness the police at least had some boundaries!).

It does sound like something a male would do - seeing a package of underwear close by, maybe having helped JonBenet in the toilet that previous day, knowing someone else saw her undies too, grabbed the correct day pair and put them on.

 

[No it's not]

This was always one of the more confusing elements of the cover-up. A little girl who wore size 5 or 6 panties would not be able to wear a size 12 pair. There is no way JonBenet was wearing those panties before she died - she wouldn't have been able to walk and they'd have been bunched up in her over-pants. I don't think Patsy would have ever consented to give JonBenet the wrong panties, and anyway, they were in the basement at the time and so were hidden along with the other gifts.

No, I do believe that someone had changed her underwear because the original pair was ruined during her death and what took place afterward. There was probably more blood than the 2 small spots left on the new panties, and likely more urine as well (not sure about fecal matter as she still had the pineapple in her intestine). I never heard that the original panties were recovered. Maybe they were hidden in clothing that was taken out of the house by Pam Paugh (I thought she had gotten the golf bag, thank goodness the police at least had some boundaries!).

It does sound like something a male would do - seeing a package of underwear close by, maybe having helped JonBenet in the toilet that previous day, knowing someone else saw her undies too, grabbed the correct day pair and put them on.

I agree. It would almost certainly exclude PR. She dressed JBR for the night according to her and JR. She knew ( or one would expect she knew) what kind of underwear JBR was wearing that night getting ready for bed. There was no need for PR to grab a certain panties, since she was the only one with that particular knowledge (expected). It would have to be BR or JR. This is a bit strange to me.

-Nin