The Possible Abuse of Caylee REVISIT

[seagull65]

Thanks AZ Lawyer for posting the texts! OK, so it was Casey who (supposedly) had the bruised rib. You could be right about it being just another excuse/stall tactic regarding moving in as roommates. Thank you

 

[orb4me]

I am either out of touch or I have lost my mind.....book?????

http://bit.ly/8HsZzU

 

[JBean]

I am either out of touch or I have lost my mind.....book?????

http://bit.ly/8HsZzU

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92827&highlight=book

 

[2goldfish]

However, regarding actual abuse by Casey, I think the fact that Caylee was so bonded to Casey and didn't like being separated from her, always wanted to be held by her (as Annie described for example), Casey was her preferred person, she liked to sleep with Casey rather than in her own bed, etc, all this seems to indicate to me that Casey was probably not someone who struck Caylee, Caylee didn't show fear of Casey, just the opposite. And everyone reports that Casey had always provided decent care and seemed caring and affectionate toward Caylee. So if any abuse occurred (at the hands of Casey), it seems to me like it could only have been right at the very end, though it's kind of hard to picture this sudden change in behavior by Casey toward Caylee with the history like it is. But it's possible. MOO

snipped - I am with you as far as physical abuse. that behaviour actually seems like it could be due to neglect. even so I only say this because KC didnt leave enough time through her phone use to be paying that much attention - my 3 year old is rather clingy too and it sure aint down to me abusing him, my phone use is nil, and my internet is whenever he is nursing and I have nothing else to do :biglaugh: whereas my 15 year old, when he was three, was happy to go as far from me as he could get. often. I did a lot o' running after him :biglaugh: so who really knows how caylee was feeling or why she seemed so needy?

 

[cloud]

snipped for space.I thought before that bruises on little kids are very common and wondered if people were just looking for explanations for an inexplicable thing as far as bruises on caylee are concerned. As I read your post I became curious, as my son is just about the age caylee ever got to be, and so I went through 3 years of photos just now (I'm camera happy) and I counted 2. my husband remembered an additional one on the nose from the slide at the park.

so at nearly three, that's our facial bruising. there might have been one or two more but in three years that just about fits what you've seen as typical.

I'm sure there are many bruises and even some broken bones... children will test their strength and/or just play without even imagining any consequences or even caring about them. Caylee was 2 going on 3... she would have probably stretched the limits because that's what children do as they develop, and it's a good thing.

Maybe that's what happened... but when you're faced with the body of a little girl packed in laundry and garbage bags and thrown in the woods... with duct tape around her mouth, the perspective shifts. At least, mine does.

JMHO

 

[Curious Me]

(Bold by me.)
I thought it was pretty weird in the interviews with the Anthonys regarding who took care of Lee and Casey when they were kids after school, too, to hear how little supervision they had from a young age. It was like the A's assumed neighbors and friends' families were looking out for them. I was really surprised when I heard those interviews (was it the depositions by the state?) . To me they sounded over-trusting and naive, or even somewhat neglectful, regarding supervision. It sounds like Casey was the same, for example just letting whatever roommates were around watch Caylee while she was asleep or occupied (for example, Clint said he played with Caylee a lot, Nate said he and Cameron watched Caylee while Casey and Tony were occupied or sleeping, Casey had known these guys a very short time. Clint's girlfriend Maria also mentioned her concern regarding Casey just thinking whoever was in the front room would be watching out for Caylee's safety, her concern regarding the balcony, etc. Anyway, it was interesting when I heard the depositions with GA and CA to hear they had had the same kind of blindspot or naive attitude about supervision of their own children. MOO

However, regarding actual abuse by Casey, I think the fact that Caylee was so bonded to Casey and didn't like being separated from her, always wanted to be held by her (as Annie described for example), Casey was her preferred person, she liked to sleep with Casey rather than in her own bed, etc, all this seems to indicate to me that Casey was probably not someone who struck Caylee, Caylee didn't show fear of Casey, just the opposite. And everyone reports that Casey had always provided decent care and seemed caring and affectionate toward Caylee. So if any abuse occurred (at the hands of Casey), it seems to me like it could only have been right at the very end, though it's kind of hard to picture this sudden change in behavior by Casey toward Caylee with the history like it is. But it's possible. MOO

Bolded By Me

Glad you pointed this out about Cindy's lax idea of childcare, seagull. She has no idea how negligent she sounds as a parent, IMO. It does explain why she never insisted on meeting or talking to this imaginary nanny who babysat for free.

Naive does not seem like a word I'd connect to this family, but I would use careless with the well being of their family members on a mind, body, and soul level. Caylee's death never should have happened, no way no how.

Casey, on the other hand, started lying about a job and leaving Caylee from very early on. Yes, she does look like she tried for awhile to give a sh... about the kid, but a talking, telling Caylee was going to be a problem. This problem kept cropping up everyday, and it was in KC narcissistically selfish mind, a problem that should have been done away with a long time ago. I believe KC felt she was still entitled to an abortion at the time she gave up being a Mom.


I don't see it as a sudden change in behavior but a growing resentment. Casey cared so little in the end she was able to kill her child and continue lying about it to this day. After being lax and deliberately inattentive to Caylee, she tosses her daughter's life away, and goes out dancing, etc. Caylee was exposed to only KC's life, not a life of her own. She's gone, and she never got a chance to get over her attachment issues by going to daycare or having regular playmates. I know some of KC's friends say she was a good mother, but I bolded the other facts you pointed out. It's no wonder that beautiful child wasn't molested by who knows which young guy KC may have just met!

Do I think she actually slapped Caylee around? No, not on any regular basis, but narcissistic rage can be very sudden and there might have been times Caylee made KC angry like on those jail visit videos. I would defer to the experts on whether Caylee was abused on a regular basis physically. No doubt, there enough other kinds of emotional and mental abuse that went on in that household by all members of the family on a regular basis.

Looks like they live in a nice house on the outside, but now we know otherwise.
Yet, as much as we already know, I still think there's more we don't know...like the secret they seem to all hover over hiding. What could that be about?

 

[Eidetic]

I have heard quite a few stories of kids falling and banging eyes on coffee tables before. (You can actually get little things to fit on the corners of coffee tables because of this, little rounded pads or something .) Of course if a toddler had a large bruise on their face that appeared to be from a hand or something, finger marks on their face or frequent black eyes or bruised lips or something, that would be a different story. Or finger bruises around their arms, or bruises on their back, areas they would not as easily bump into things. I can remember my son having at least two bumps on the head that I can remember. Very scary at the time, turned out okay thank God. And that's an only child with an overprotective mother! I don't know if it's quite as bad with girls.

I have a small scar almost level with the outside corner of my right eye from falling into a coffee table when I was starting to walk.

My mom said I "broke the strap to the changing table and fell onto the floor", don't think any serious injury resulted from that though.

I have another scar under my right nostril (his upper tooth got my hair line)from when a Chow Chow had bitten me because the adults were not bright enough to keep a toddler that was face bite height away from a dog that was being fed.

My older sister, brother and I were sliding down our steep driveway when I was 3 when my brother lost his grip on my sled which sent me under the neighbors car, slicing my head open, a wound that required stitches. The ambulance had to come and get me because it was a head injury so my mother was having trouble stopping the bleeding, used numerous blood soaked rags and she could see the tissue inside my head.

Once at that same apartment, around the same age, I stuck a set of keys in the light socket on the side of our stove (while our mother was sitting there entertaining friends) and got got such a shock it knocked off the stool I used to climb up there. I told them; "Inspector Gadget did it".

I am kind of ticked at my mom after having listed all those :furious:

I don't know how we survived the 70's-80's. My mom was 18 when she first started having kids. We had metal walkers and death traps for cribs. Baby proofing didn't really exist...
I was fourth of five so I was pretty much on my own at that point. I guess she figured the others survived, so I was good. :snooty:

 

[Eidetic]

(Bold by me.)
I thought it was pretty weird in the interviews with the Anthonys regarding who took care of Lee and Casey when they were kids after school, too, to hear how little supervision they had from a young age. It was like the A's assumed neighbors and friends' families were looking out for them. I was really surprised when I heard those interviews (was it the depositions by the state?) . To me they sounded over-trusting and naive, or even somewhat neglectful, regarding supervision. It sounds like Casey was the same, for example just letting whatever roommates were around watch Caylee while she was asleep or occupied (for example, Clint said he played with Caylee a lot, Nate said he and Cameron watched Caylee while Casey and Tony were occupied or sleeping, Casey had known these guys a very short time. Clint's girlfriend Maria also mentioned her concern regarding Casey just thinking whoever was in the front room would be watching out for Caylee's safety, her concern regarding the balcony, etc. Anyway, it was interesting when I heard the depositions with GA and CA to hear they had had the same kind of blindspot or naive attitude about supervision of their own children. MOO

However, regarding actual abuse by Casey, I think the fact that Caylee was so bonded to Casey and didn't like being separated from her, always wanted to be held by her (as Annie described for example), Casey was her preferred person, she liked to sleep with Casey rather than in her own bed, etc, all this seems to indicate to me that Casey was probably not someone who struck Caylee, Caylee didn't show fear of Casey, just the opposite. And everyone reports that Casey had always provided decent care and seemed caring and affectionate toward Caylee. So if any abuse occurred (at the hands of Casey), it seems to me like it could only have been right at the very end, though it's kind of hard to picture this sudden change in behavior by Casey toward Caylee with the history like it is. But it's possible. MOO

There are conflicting statements on this. George and others have been quoted saying Casey complained; "Why does Caylee go to you guys more than she comes to me?"

I think The A's may have convinced Annie to stretch the truth when she stopped by after everything went down. Annie seemed a little over the top with "no one could hold Caylee but Casey." Caylee seemed a very affectionate and happy child. :waitasec:

I have seen pictures of Caylee with Ricardo, playing with another little girl, Lauren used to babysit her, the now infamous video of Caylee with great grandpa whom she probably rarely saw...

What if Caylee was starting to go through a phase where she chose sleeping with Jo Jo and CC over Casey? All those panda bears in the A's master bedroom versus Caseys room which didn't appear as child friendly, and definitely not the beds of young men who did not have children.

 

[logicalgirl]

There are conflicting statements on this. George and others have been quoted saying Casey complained; "Why does Caylee go to you guys more than she comes to me?"

I think The A's may have convinced Annie to stretch the truth when she stopped by after everything went down. Annie seemed a little over the top with "no one could hold Caylee but Casey." Caylee seemed a very affectionate and happy child. :waitasec:

I have seen pictures of Caylee with Ricardo, playing with another little girl, Lauren used to babysit her, the now infamous video of Caylee with great grandpa whom she probably rarely saw...

What if Caylee was starting to go through a phase where she chose sleeping with Jo Jo and CC over Casey? All those panda bears in the A's master bedroom versus Caseys room which didn't appear as child friendly, and definitely not the beds of young men who did not have children.

I think you are right on point there Eidetic, I'm with you on doubting Amy's story. The only way I can see part of it may be true is if Caylee was clinging to Casey to mean don't leave me in the car or wherever again, take me with you - that staying with Casey would be preferable to whatever the alternative was. If you do one action with a child a couple of times they begin to anticipate it. It could be Caylee knew what to expect from Casey, but that wasn't her experience with JoJo and CC. She only expected good things from them.

 

[Harmony 2]

I have a small scar almost level with the outside corner of my right eye from falling into a coffee table when I was starting to walk.

My mom said I "broke the strap to the changing table and fell onto the floor", don't think any serious injury resulted from that though.

I have another scar under my right nostril (his upper tooth got my hair line)from when a Chow Chow had bitten me because the adults were not bright enough to keep a toddler that was face bite height away from a dog that was being fed.

My older sister, brother and I were sliding down our steep driveway when I was 3 when my brother lost his grip on my sled which sent me under the neighbors car, slicing my head open, a wound that required stitches. The ambulance had to come and get me because it was a head injury so my mother was having trouble stopping the bleeding, used numerous blood soaked rags and she could see the tissue inside my head.

Once at that same apartment, around the same age, I stuck a set of keys in the light socket on the side of our stove (while our mother was sitting there entertaining friends) and got got such a shock it knocked off the stool I used to climb up there. I told them; "Inspector Gadget did it".

I am kind of ticked at my mom after having listed all those :furious:

I don't know how we survived the 70's-80's. My mom was 18 when she first started having kids. We had metal walkers and death traps for cribs. Baby proofing didn't really exist...
I was fourth of five so I was pretty much on my own at that point. I guess she figured the others survived, so I was good. :snooty:

bolded and underscored by me:

There is an old joke accounting that a mother sterilizes her first baby's pacifier by boiling it, the second baby's pacifier gets wiped and cleaned on clothes when dropped, and the third or last baby's pacifier gets cleaned by blowing on it.

I guess the moral of the joke is that mother's become less protective or attentive with each child. I do not agree with that, I was extremely attentive and protective with both of ours even to this day in their teenage years. I think it depends on each mother and her conscientiousness as a caretaker.

Sadly, I do not think Caylee received that kind of deligence in her care.

 

[OneLostGrl]

(Bold by me.)
I thought it was pretty weird in the interviews with the Anthonys regarding who took care of Lee and Casey when they were kids after school, too, to hear how little supervision they had from a young age. It was like the A's assumed neighbors and friends' families were looking out for them. I was really surprised when I heard those interviews (was it the depositions by the state?) . To me they sounded over-trusting and naive, or even somewhat neglectful, regarding supervision. It sounds like Casey was the same, for example just letting whatever roommates were around watch Caylee while she was asleep or occupied (for example, Clint said he played with Caylee a lot, Nate said he and Cameron watched Caylee while Casey and Tony were occupied or sleeping, Casey had known these guys a very short time. Clint's girlfriend Maria also mentioned her concern regarding Casey just thinking whoever was in the front room would be watching out for Caylee's safety, her concern regarding the balcony, etc. Anyway, it was interesting when I heard the depositions with GA and CA to hear they had had the same kind of blindspot or naive attitude about supervision of their own children. MOO

However, regarding actual abuse by Casey, I think the fact that Caylee was so bonded to Casey and didn't like being separated from her, always wanted to be held by her (as Annie described for example), Casey was her preferred person, she liked to sleep with Casey rather than in her own bed, etc, all this seems to indicate to me that Casey was probably not someone who struck Caylee, Caylee didn't show fear of Casey, just the opposite. And everyone reports that Casey had always provided decent care and seemed caring and affectionate toward Caylee. So if any abuse occurred (at the hands of Casey), it seems to me like it could only have been right at the very end, though it's kind of hard to picture this sudden change in behavior by Casey toward Caylee with the history like it is. But it's possible. MOO

IMO there was nothing over-trusting or naive about the way they raised their children by leaving them home alone with no one to watchover them. I know this because they lied in their depo's to try and make it seem one of them was indeed home to care for the children and in the end it was only George who conceeded once he was confronted with the truth of the job he had and the set hours of said job and that it would not have been possible for him to have been waiting to walk Casey home from school or to school because he was not home! People who are naive don't lie to try to make themselves look like better parents, they assume they are fine parents. That's the nature of being naive.

 

[logicalgirl]

About parenting and my childhood - and child care back in those days. We lived in a small interior town, and I was the middle child of six. At four I was pretty much on my own during the day. I stepped on nails in the discarded lumber yard, had the slivers picked out of my behind from sliding down boards, fell in the creek over my head and almost drowned, fell down the steps multiple times into the root cellar when my mother forgot to replace the cover in the floor, etc., would roam the forest with the family dog and got it killed when it was hit by a passing truck who struck the dog walking on the outside of me, narrowly missing me. But the one that really stands out in my memory was standing on the roof of the woodshed, with my younger brother (1.5 yrs) and my younger sister (3yrs) with sheets tied around their necks, convincing them they could fly if they just jumped off. Fortunately my dad drove into the driveway just then and he and I paid a visit to the woodshed shortly after. Expectations of parenting sure have changed. And I realize why I'm pretty creaky these days! Sorry for the OT.

 

[JoAnn_W]

i'm sure i'll be strung up for this but i don't see anything weird with caylee sleeping in the same bed as KC and RM.

i mean, its not like they were having sex with her right there sleeping soundly.....gross!

there are many many families that actually have "family bed" and small children sleep with their parents all the time. what is different with KC and RM, if RM is a close family firend (to KC and caylee) and she knows and trusts him and has seen him many times?

when my daughter was young we would sometimes travel to the other coast for a beach weekend with a close, and male, friend of mine. after a long night of disney movies and junk food, we would all collapse in a heap and sleep on his bed.

this is not the same as turning tricks with your infant daughter sleeping one blanket over.

RM is not a husband or father to the baby- not even a stepfather. A sleeping child is very vulnerable. I wouldn't allow my current lover in bed with my daughter. Besides, why was she in his bed? You really think sleeping and honor were the motives? If so, Casey and Caylee would be in the bed alone and RM on the couch.

JoAnn_W

 

[LambChop]

About parenting and my childhood - and child care back in those days. We lived in a small interior town, and I was the middle child of six. At four I was pretty much on my own during the day. I stepped on nails in the discarded lumber yard, had the slivers picked out of my behind from sliding down boards, fell in the creek over my head and almost drowned, fell down the steps multiple times into the root cellar when my mother forgot to replace the cover in the floor, etc., would roam the forest with the family dog and got it killed when it was hit by a passing truck who struck the dog walking on the outside of me, narrowly missing me. But the one that really stands out in my memory was standing on the roof of the woodshed, with my younger brother (1.5 yrs) and my younger sister (3yrs) with sheets tied around their necks, convincing them they could fly if they just jumped off. Fortunately my dad drove into the driveway just then and he and I paid a visit to the woodshed shortly after. Expectations of parenting sure have changed. And I realize why I'm pretty creaky these days! Sorry for the OT.

Those were the days when guardian angels were very, very busy. It was a time when you told you children NOT to do things and expected them to listen, which children being normal did not always do. It was a time when imaginations were much more active because a TV was not a babysitter. It was also a time when you could walk home from school and not have to worry about being approached by a stranger. Times change, parenting sometimes does not. Those same angels now expect us to be more diligent. JMO

 

[logicalgirl]

Those were the days when guardian angels were very, very busy. It was a time when you told you children NOT to do things and expected them to listen, which children being normal did not always do. It was a time when imaginations were much more active because a TV was not a babysitter. It was also a time when you could walk home from school and not have to worry about being approached by a stranger. Times change, parenting sometimes does not. Those same angels now expect us to be more diligent. JMO

Absolutely although in my case, I had an emotionally absent mother, at least emotionally absent as far as I was concerned - she was absorbed in being bi-polar. God knows my father multi-tasked until he died at 35, I think the angels carried me thereafter. My two daughters still joke about having to wear undershirts until they were six and whenever it's really cold out I phone and ask them if their coats are warm enough even though they are in their late 30"s. " No mom, I don't need you to buy me another coat and yes, my boots are still fine and keeping my feet dry". At least they still humor me now.

And yes, no TV, cells or video games but as you can see, I always found something fun to do!

 

[Eidetic]

Absolutely although in my case, I had an emotionally absent mother, at least emotionally absent as far as I was concerned - she was absorbed in being bi-polar. God knows my father multi-tasked until he died at 35, I think the angels carried me thereafter. My two daughters still joke about having to wear undershirts until they were six and whenever it's really cold out I phone and ask them if their coats are warm enough even though they are in their late 30"s. " No mom, I don't need you to buy me another coat and yes, my boots are still fine and keeping my feet dry". At least they still humor me now.

And yes, no TV, cells or video games but as you can see, I always found something fun to do!

My mother is the same way. Her laugh is very insincere and she has always been self absorbed. In fact, I think the reason the A home videos stand out to me is because I can see a lot of my own relationship with my mother in them. My mother wasn't affectionate with us, and when she was it was for show towards family and friends.

When I told her I didn't remember a lot of my childhood she said very nonchalantly; "you must have blocked it out..." :snooty:

I have even told my husband that we should count ourselves lucky that our mothers didn't more seriously harm us, beyond the random rage beatings, emotional/verbal abuse and neglect in my case, but smothering in his.

My mother now takes medication (most times...) but she is still very self absorbed, unpredictable and passive aggressive. I don't think we will ever be close.

Sorry for going OT!

 

[LambChop]

My mother is the same way. Her laugh is very insincere and she has always been self absorbed. In fact, I think the reason the A home videos stand out to me is because I can see a lot of my own relationship with my mother in them. My mother wasn't affectionate with us, and when she was it was for show towards family and friends.

When I told her I didn't remember a lot of my childhood she said very nonchalantly; "you must have blocked it out..." :snooty:

I have even told my husband that we should count ourselves lucky that our mothers didn't more seriously harm us, beyond the random rage beatings, emotional/verbal abuse and neglect in my case, but smothering in his.

My mother now takes medication (most times...) but she is still very self absorbed, unpredictable and passive aggressive. I don't think we will ever be close.

Sorry for going OT!

I think any mothers who lived during the depression era when they were young were affected this way. Very self-absorbed, looking out for self only. Not sure your Mom was around during the 1929 to 1939 era but I see a lot of it in my relatives. Not all but some. It was a very bad time to be young.

 

[logicalgirl]

My mother is the same way. Her laugh is very insincere and she has always been self absorbed. In fact, I think the reason the A home videos stand out to me is because I can see a lot of my own relationship with my mother in them. My mother wasn't affectionate with us, and when she was it was for show towards family and friends.

When I told her I didn't remember a lot of my childhood she said very nonchalantly; "you must have blocked it out..." :snooty:

I have even told my husband that we should count ourselves lucky that our mothers didn't more seriously harm us, beyond the random rage beatings, emotional/verbal abuse and neglect in my case, but smothering in his.

My mother now takes medication (most times...) but she is still very self absorbed, unpredictable and passive aggressive. I don't think we will ever be close.

Sorry for going OT!

Thank you and you described it perfectly for me also.

 

[logicalgirl]

I think any mothers who lived during the depression era when they were young were affected this way. Very self-absorbed, looking out for self only. Not sure your Mom was around during the 1929 to 1939 era but I see a lot of it in my relatives. Not all but some. It was a very bad time to be young.

I'm still OT here but in some ways it does relate to a Caylee abuse issue. I have sympathy for my Mom, and her issue and was her primary caregiver for a number of years. And yes, she was young during those years however her father was fortunate to work for the Canadian Railway during those years, and they owned a sizable farm in those days, with food being grown or raised. My father on the other hand, an American from North Dakota, was her polar opposite. He worked long hours closeby, and raised us. Like you I have almost no childhood memories of her in a "mother" role.

To tie it into this section - I believe my children would say I didn't neglect them or certainly I didn't kill them.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Absolutely although in my case, I had an emotionally absent mother, at least emotionally absent as far as I was concerned - she was absorbed in being bi-polar. God knows my father multi-tasked until he died at 35, I think the angels carried me thereafter. My two daughters still joke about having to wear undershirts until they were six and whenever it's really cold out I phone and ask them if their coats are warm enough even though they are in their late 30"s. " No mom, I don't need you to buy me another coat and yes, my boots are still fine and keeping my feet dry". At least they still humor me now.

And yes, no TV, cells or video games but as you can see, I always found something fun to do!

My mother is the same way. Her laugh is very insincere and she has always been self absorbed. In fact, I think the reason the A home videos stand out to me is because I can see a lot of my own relationship with my mother in them. My mother wasn't affectionate with us, and when she was it was for show towards family and friends.

When I told her I didn't remember a lot of my childhood she said very nonchalantly; "you must have blocked it out..." :snooty:

I have even told my husband that we should count ourselves lucky that our mothers didn't more seriously harm us, beyond the random rage beatings, emotional/verbal abuse and neglect in my case, but smothering in his.

My mother now takes medication (most times...) but she is still very self absorbed, unpredictable and passive aggressive. I don't think we will ever be close.

Sorry for going OT!

I don't now how old ya'll are so I don't know if it's a "sign of the times" thing but I was born in the 70's.. My mom was a hippy. She had been raised in a "leave it to beaver" type household (ie: was over protected and lied to about the real world). You have all read my posts about my mom so I don't have to say much but she was a smotherer. She would cry and tell us she was gonna kill herself when her boyfriends would break up with her, she accused men of raping her when they did not. She would go from calm to throwing the dinner dishes across the room in seconds flat then go off to her room and come back in 20 mintues and be fine. Like nothing happened and if anyone said anything about it they were accused of starting trouble. But then the next day she'd do such nice things with us, trying to make up for smashing everything in the house.

I believe many of her behaviors were due to a constant struggle of wanting to both please and rebel against her parents. I don't know if that's the case with ya'lls mothers. I have my mom living with me... She takes her meds faithfully and has stayed in therapy.. these are her conditions and so far she has followed them (knock on wood!!) The change in her is dramatic and I am thankful for this chance to get to know the real her. I hope you both get the same chance!! :blowkiss: I don't blame her or hate her or fault her. After all, she could have killed me