The Possible Abuse of Caylee REVISIT

[logicalgirl]

I don't now how old ya'll are so I don't know if it's a "sign of the times" thing but I was born in the 70's.. My mom was a hippy. She had been raised in a "leave it to beaver" type household (ie: was over protected and lied to about the real world). You have all read my posts about my mom so I don't have to say much but she was a smotherer. She would cry and tell us she was gonna kill herself when her boyfriends would break up with her, she accused men of raping her when they did not. She would go from calm to throwing the dinner dishes across the room in seconds flat then go off to her room and come back in 20 mintues and be fine. Like nothing happened and if anyone said anything about it they were accused of starting trouble. But then the next day she'd do such nice things with us, trying to make up for smashing everything in the house.

I believe many of her behaviors were due to a constant struggle of wanting to both please and rebel against her parents. I don't know if that's the case with ya'lls mothers. I have my mom living with me... She takes her meds faithfully and has stayed in therapy.. these are her conditions and so far she has followed them (knock on wood!!) The change in her is dramatic and I am thankful for this chance to get to know the real her. I hope you both get the same chance!! :blowkiss: I don't blame her or hate her or fault her. After all, she could have killed me

Thank you for the thought but no in my case it didn't ever happen. I'd say 98% of the time I was ignored completely, and the rest of the time I'm told I argued with her - yes, even at three. We apparently lived in parallel worlds or I just didn't exist. I was her caregiver because no one else in the family would do it, however, it was always one of my sisters she would have preferred to see. This sounds like poor poor me, but into my teens and adulthood, it just ran off me like rain because making sure she was looked after was something that needed to be done. Once she was stabilized and medicated, I saw less and less of her until I didn't see her at all. We don't all have happy endings but I've made peace with it which is why I'm able to talk about it at all.
This was something I wish Casey had been able to do because if she had, Caylee would still be alive. If she had been able to look at her whole "situation" and say - okay, here's what probably lies ahead, here are my choices, which one can I pick that will give me happiness and peace, and then move ahead with that choice, I don't think she'd be where she is today. If she didn't want to be a mother and didn't want Cindy to have her - she could have given her up for adoption. It would have taken courage and heart - but Caylee would still be alive.

Or Casey could have decided she hated living at home, gotten a job or worked two like many of us have done, and cared for Caylee and made a life for her.

I guess I really am having some kind of pipe dream here. Sigh.

 

[3doglady]

I don't now how old ya'll are so I don't know if it's a "sign of the times" thing but I was born in the 70's.. My mom was a hippy. She had been raised in a "leave it to beaver" type household (ie: was over protected and lied to about the real world). You have all read my posts about my mom so I don't have to say much but she was a smotherer. She would cry and tell us she was gonna kill herself when her boyfriends would break up with her, she accused men of raping her when they did not. She would go from calm to throwing the dinner dishes across the room in seconds flat then go off to her room and come back in 20 mintues and be fine. Like nothing happened and if anyone said anything about it they were accused of starting trouble. But then the next day she'd do such nice things with us, trying to make up for smashing everything in the house.

I believe many of her behaviors were due to a constant struggle of wanting to both please and rebel against her parents. I don't know if that's the case with ya'lls mothers. I have my mom living with me... She takes her meds faithfully and has stayed in therapy.. these are her conditions and so far she has followed them (knock on wood!!) The change in her is dramatic and I am thankful for this chance to get to know the real her. I hope you both get the same chance!! :blowkiss: I don't blame her or hate her or fault her. After all, she could have killed me

Just wanted to say that I truly admire you. My husband had a similar upbringing and sees his mother only when he has to (Christmas). This seems to be fine with her, she never had any interest in seeing our children. I was lucky to have a caring family. My grandmother who lived during the depression took care of me while my mother was at work. She was the most loving, caring person I have ever known. I don't think the period that a person lives has anything to do with it. A mother is a mother regardless. Mental illness may affect that and the stress of hard times may affect a person who already has mental or emotional issues. But a mother who is emotionally stable always puts her children first. JMO

 

[logicalgirl]

Just wanted to say that I truly admire you. My husband had a similar upbringing and sees his mother only when he has to (Christmas). This seems to be fine with her, she never had any interest in seeing our children. I was lucky to have a caring family. My grandmother who lived during the depression took care of me while my mother was at work. She was the most loving, caring person I have ever known. I don't think the period that a person lives has anything to do with it. A mother is a mother regardless. Mental illness may affect that and the stress of hard times may affect a person who already has mental or emotional issues. But a mother who is emotionally stable always puts her children first. JMO

AMEN!!:blowkiss:

 

[wenwe4]

I have a small scar almost level with the outside corner of my right eye from falling into a coffee table when I was starting to walk.

My mom said I "broke the strap to the changing table and fell onto the floor", don't think any serious injury resulted from that though.

I have another scar under my right nostril (his upper tooth got my hair line)from when a Chow Chow had bitten me because the adults were not bright enough to keep a toddler that was face bite height away from a dog that was being fed.

My older sister, brother and I were sliding down our steep driveway when I was 3 when my brother lost his grip on my sled which sent me under the neighbors car, slicing my head open, a wound that required stitches. The ambulance had to come and get me because it was a head injury so my mother was having trouble stopping the bleeding, used numerous blood soaked rags and she could see the tissue inside my head.

Once at that same apartment, around the same age, I stuck a set of keys in the light socket on the side of our stove (while our mother was sitting there entertaining friends) and got got such a shock it knocked off the stool I used to climb up there. I told them; "Inspector Gadget did it".

I am kind of ticked at my mom after having listed all those :furious:

I don't know how we survived the 70's-80's. My mom was 18 when she first started having kids. We had metal walkers and death traps for cribs. Baby proofing didn't really exist...
I was fourth of five so I was pretty much on my own at that point. I guess she figured the others survived, so I was good. :snooty:

Can we talk "lack of supervision"? In addition, child abuse laws didn't exist in most states until the mid-late 1970's and there were no child protection services or even domestic violence shelters (the first of those opened in 1979). It is amazing we all survived, but we had the benefit of neighbors and communities helping to parent. In the 50's & 60's (and before), it was common to have ole Mrs. Smith who lived down the street to come out and call Johnny out of her tree and march the young man home by the ear, to tell his Mother what he had been up to. Someone in my family were playing with matchbox cars and running them down a rain gutter. The boys got the great idea of adding some pyromania, and poured gasoline in the gutter and lit it on fire to run their cars through. Amazingly, nothing bad happened, but also no neighbors intervened in the incident either.

 

[logicalgirl]

Can we talk "lack of supervision"? In addition, child abuse laws didn't exist in most states until the mid-late 1970's and there were no child protection services or even domestic violence shelters (the first of those opened in 1979). It is amazing we all survived, but we had the benefit of neighbors and communities helping to parent. In the 50's & 60's (and before), it was common to have ole Mrs. Smith who lived down the street to come out and call Johnny out of her tree and march the young man home by the ear, to tell his Mother what he had been up to. Someone in my family were playing with matchbox cars and running them down a rain gutter. The boys got the great idea of adding some pyromania, and poured gasoline in the gutter and lit it on fire to run their cars through. Amazingly, nothing bad happened, but also no neighbors intervened in the incident either.

wenwe4 - you are right about neighbours and closer knit communities pitching in. I hadn't thought about it as no domestic violence shelters or any shelters of any kind, plus other child protection services.

Did the child protection services visit Casey before she was arrested or was it after? I guess in the States you don't have the public health nurse follow-up like here in Canada for every newborn and often much further on if you are a single parent? Here we also have child phone lines for kids to call if they are being abused or in trouble.

Also, I think back then, families moved less often, didn't settle so far away from there relatives, and often raised their children in the same home/house for the entire life of the child. People in the community knew each other, and yes, although there weren't "block parents" people often felt it was okay to "parent" all the kids on their block and often did.

 

[lillys]

When Caylee was in the A home, I think she was around a lot of noise, yelling, loud talking, that kind of thing instead of physical abuse. But I think when Casey was alone with Caylee, it was a different story. There are just too many sad pictures of Caylee. I don't buy Caylee's falling causing blackened eyes either.

 

[wenwe4]

wenwe4 - you are right about neighbours and closer knit communities pitching in. I hadn't thought about it as no domestic violence shelters or any shelters of any kind, plus other child protection services.

Did the child protection services visit Casey before she was arrested or was it after? I guess in the States you don't have the public health nurse follow-up like here in Canada for every newborn and often much further on if you are a single parent? Here we also have child phone lines for kids to call if they are being abused or in trouble.

Also, I think back then, families moved less often, didn't settle so far away from there relatives, and often raised their children in the same home/house for the entire life of the child. People in the community knew each other, and yes, although there weren't "block parents" people often felt it was okay to "parent" all the kids on their block and often did.

I don't know if CPS visited kc before she was arrested or after. In the States we have programs that families can qualify for a visiting public health nurse, unfortunately - those funds are being cut everywhere. Those visits are generally during pregnancy thru the first 3 months after birth. It varies from State to State and region to region due to funding. Those services are completely voluntary and often don't reach the people who truly need the help. Communities used to be a lot more involved in "parenting" but now we lock our doors, put fences up in our yards, hide behind curtains, and don't get involved. We isolate much more than during those years when the whole neighborhood would be outside on a summer night and a roaring game of kick the can was the best action on the block. People often would sit on their front porches and talk to passersby, instead of playing video games, blogging, or watching tv, etc.

 

[logicalgirl]

I don't know if CPS visited kc before she was arrested or after. In the States we have programs that families can qualify for a visiting public health nurse, unfortunately - those funds are being cut everywhere. Those visits are generally during pregnancy thru the first 3 months after birth. It varies from State to State and region to region due to funding. Those services are completely voluntary and often don't reach the people who truly need the help. Communities used to be a lot more involved in "parenting" but now we lock our doors, put fences up in our yards, hide behind curtains, and don't get involved. We isolate much more than during those years when the whole neighborhood would be outside on a summer night and a roaring game of kick the can was the best action on the block. People often would sit on their front porches and talk to passersby, instead of playing video games, blogging, or watching tv, etc.

Yes, I remember those days and block dinners, when everyone on the block brought out something for a community potluck for everyone on the block.
Good memories, including dads stamping down the snow in the back yard, flooding it with water and creating kid ice rinks in just about every second house on the block, and when whole streets were shut down after a heavy snow fall so everyone could sled down them. And Christmas caroling, when your neighbors opened their doors, stood and listened then offered cookies and hot chocolate. We also rode our bikes out to the lake in the summer, stayed all day unsupervised and rode home for a very late dinner. Things for children today are so different. Parents drive them to extra-curricular classes, and who would feel safe in a big city letting their kids walk home even from school. I get anxious just thinking about it if my children were young now.

 

[magic-cat]

Just would like to touch back on the issue of Casey sleeping with Ricardo with Caylee in the bed with them. It has been suggested that this situation is the same as falling exhausted into bed with a close friend of a differing sex and ones child, or the same as parents taking their child into their own bed to sleep with them. I would disagree that what Casey did was anything remotely akin to innocent exhaustion or to parental love and caring.

Casey was prone to switching sex partners like some folks are prone to trading cars-she never kept one for long. And obviously Casey was ALL about SEX. It stands to reason if she was spending the night with Ricardo then they were more than likely having sex...with Caylee laying right there in the same bed with them. For her to wake up and see this would have been devastating to say the least...of course, it is possible she had been chloroformed or benadryled or whatever drug dejour was available and they had no fears of her waking up and witnessing a sexual escapade...nonetheless, it is reprehensible for a childs own parents to copulate with the child in the bed with them, much less with a semi-stranger.

There is simply no way that I can come to terms with that act, repeatedly, being one of innocence in any shade thereof...:sick:

 

[magic-cat]

I don't know if CPS visited kc before she was arrested or after. In the States we have programs that families can qualify for a visiting public health nurse, unfortunately - those funds are being cut everywhere. Those visits are generally during pregnancy thru the first 3 months after birth. It varies from State to State and region to region due to funding. Those services are completely voluntary and often don't reach the people who truly need the help. Communities used to be a lot more involved in "parenting" but now we lock our doors, put fences up in our yards, hide behind curtains, and don't get involved. We isolate much more than during those years when the whole neighborhood would be outside on a summer night and a roaring game of kick the can was the best action on the block. People often would sit on their front porches and talk to passersby, instead of playing video games, blogging, or watching tv, etc.

Casey was nearing her 8th month of pregnancy before she ever even bothered to see a doctor...so I doubt she was concerned with any programs that were available for the well being of her unborn child. Her main interest was in concealing her pregnancy and keeping it a secret for as long as possible...so I guess in reality, her abuse of Caylee began before Caylee even had a chance to be born...sadly.

 

[wenwe4]

Yes, I remember those days and block dinners, when everyone on the block brought out something for a community potluck for everyone on the block.
Good memories, including dads stamping down the snow in the back yard, flooding it with water and creating kid ice rinks in just about every second house on the block, and when whole streets were shut down after a heavy snow fall so everyone could sled down them. And Christmas caroling, when your neighbors opened their doors, stood and listened then offered cookies and hot chocolate. We also rode our bikes out to the lake in the summer, stayed all day unsupervised and rode home for a very late dinner. Things for children today are so different. Parents drive them to extra-curricular classes, and who would feel safe in a big city letting their kids walk home even from school. I get anxious just thinking about it if my children were young now.

Yep! ITA! I know a 16 y/o who refuses to walk 5 blocks to school and the parent leaves for work early, takes an early break and lunch to transport the "poor thing" back and forth for school, lunch, and after school. The natural safeguards that were built in at that time were inherent in those communities. If a neighbor saw a Dad beating a child overtly, the neighbor (or one of them) might be so inclined as to talk to the parent and remind him not to beat the child when he was angry, and other families would check in on the children. Unfortunately, there was no mechanism to remove the kids from parental care if they were being abused at that time.

 

[wenwe4]

Just would like to touch back on the issue of Casey sleeping with Ricardo with Caylee in the bed with them. It has been suggested that this situation is the same as falling exhausted into bed with a close friend of a differing sex and ones child, or the same as parents taking their child into their own bed to sleep with them. I would disagree that what Casey did was anything remotely akin to innocent exhaustion or to parental love and caring.

Casey was prone to switching sex partners like some folks are prone to trading cars-she never kept one for long. And obviously Casey was ALL about SEX. It stands to reason if she was spending the night with Ricardo then they were more than likely having sex...with Caylee laying right there in the same bed with them. For her to wake up and see this would have been devastating to say the least...of course, it is possible she had been chloroformed or benadryled or whatever drug dejour was available and they had no fears of her waking up and witnessing a sexual escapade...nonetheless, it is reprehensible for a childs own parents to copulate with the child in the bed with them, much less with a semi-stranger.

There is simply no way that I can come to terms with that act, repeatedly, being one of innocence in any shade thereof...:sick:

During most of the late 1970's to early 1980's "co-habitatation between unmarried individuals" was cause to pick children up and remove them from the parents (at least in some states). Now, it doesn't even warrent a phone call to Child Services but "couch surfing" might if you can tie some sort of issue of "child abuse/neglect" w/exposure to unsavory individuals. For instance, if one of KC's paramours was a registered sex offender and Caylee was frequently exposed to this person, AND someone reported this info to child services . . . then it might warrent an investigation.

 

[magic-cat]

During most of the late 1970's to early 1980's "co-habitatation between unmarried individuals" was cause to pick children up and remove them from the parents (at least in some states). Now, it doesn't even warrent a phone call to Child Services but "couch surfing" might if you can tie some sort of issue of "child abuse/neglect" w/exposure to unsavory individuals. For instance, if one of KC's paramours was a registered sex offender and Caylee was frequently exposed to this person, AND someone reported this info to child services . . . then it might warrent an investigation.

I guarantee you there is no more law concerning cohabitation of unmarried individuals, but there most certainly are laws which concern having a child in the bed with you during intercourse, and I would be so bold as to assume most states look negatively upon such action. I know in Virginia, they will remove your child from your home if it is proven that you are having intercourse with that child in the bed with you...and while they are at it, if you have any other children that were NOT in the bed? They will take those as well for good measure. It isn't really a morality issue with me personally, but more of a psychological one...the ramifications of waking up and seeing that are longlasting-actually, speaking from experience, VERY longlasting...and it wasn't even my PARENT...but my sister with whom I was staying at the time...I will never forget it and am scarred from the memory of it...and I was 15-so cannot imagine what it would do for a child so young and vulnerable...psychologically that is...

 

[ThoughtFox]

Just wanted to say that I truly admire you. My husband had a similar upbringing and sees his mother only when he has to (Christmas). This seems to be fine with her, she never had any interest in seeing our children. I was lucky to have a caring family. My grandmother who lived during the depression took care of me while my mother was at work. She was the most loving, caring person I have ever known. I don't think the period that a person lives has anything to do with it. A mother is a mother regardless. Mental illness may affect that and the stress of hard times may affect a person who already has mental or emotional issues. But a mother who is emotionally stable always puts her children first. JMO

I agree about time periods in history - I don't think that has anything to do with it. Both my parents came from large families who managed to survive the Great Depression and they were the best parents imaginable and learned that from their own parents. They suffered hardships after they got married, too, such as chronic illness and grief. But it was always my belief that they learned to overcome adversity and not let it ruin their lives.

When I think about Casey and the way she threw Caylee away, it's obvious she put herself first in all things and couldn't stand the idea of sacrificing time for her own child. It was all "me, me, me," which isn't that rare these days, unfortunately. But I think there have always been Narcissists who put themselves ahead of others, and unfortunately many of them become parents.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I agree about time periods in history - I don't think that has anything to do with it. Both my parents came from large families who managed to survive the Great Depression and they were the best parents imaginable and learned that from their own parents. They suffered hardships after they got married, too, such as chronic illness and grief. But it was always my belief that they learned to overcome adversity and not let it ruin their lives.

When I think about Casey and the way she threw Caylee away, it's obvious she put herself first in all things and couldn't stand the idea of sacrificing time for her own child. It was all "me, me, me," which isn't that rare these days, unfortunately. But I think there have always been Narcissists who put themselves ahead of others, and unfortunately many of them become parents.

The reason I mentioned "sign of the times" is because it was the 70's. The world was changing in big ways. Drugs had hit the scene pretty majorly and there was really not much shame attached to adults drug use. Many women were using during pregnancies and while "raising" their children. Women were realizing they didn't have to be perfect wives like their mothers, divorce was not so taboo anymore, kids began being raised on welfare and moms were off living the lives they didn't get to live while they were living at home with their parents.. suddenly they had freedom. They let us tag along.

And then of course we have vietnam, another huge issue of the 70's that forever changed the men ( and boys) who were to soon become husbands and fathers or would be coming home to their families... and a society that was pretty much against them. Mental health treatment was pretty much unheard of unless you were being locked away in a back ward some place and drugged to the point that you couldn't even walk. So nobody got help for their issues, it just seeped out into the next generation. Now, of course I realize not every family was like this, not every parent was using, not every dad was messed up from vietnam but the ones who did, the ones who were- had a huge impact on society. I have always felt the 70's and the social issues that came with it had a huge hand in the "me, me, me" trend that continues to worsen with each generation.

Anyway, I just wanted to try and explain what I was getting at with "sign of the times".

 

[OneLostGrl]

I guarantee you there is no more law concerning cohabitation of unmarried individuals, but there most certainly are laws which concern having a child in the bed with you during intercourse, and I would be so bold as to assume most states look negatively upon such action. I know in Virginia, they will remove your child from your home if it is proven that you are having intercourse with that child in the bed with you...and while they are at it, if you have any other children that were NOT in the bed? They will take those as well for good measure. It isn't really a morality issue with me personally, but more of a psychological one...the ramifications of waking up and seeing that are longlasting-actually, speaking from experience, VERY longlasting...and it wasn't even my PARENT...but my sister with whom I was staying at the time...I will never forget it and am scarred from the memory of it...and I was 15-so cannot imagine what it would do for a child so young and vulnerable...psychologically that is...

A "thanks" just isn't enough for this post. Something is very very wrong with a person who places their child in bed with them and their sex partner. Even if Casey didn't kill Caylee there are huge issues there and that in itself is abuse, ITA!

 

[wenwe4]

The reason I mentioned "sign of the times" is because it was the 70's. The world was changing in big ways. Drugs had hit the scene pretty majorly and there was really not much shame attached to adults drug use. Many women were using during pregnancies and while "raising" their children. Women were realizing they didn't have to be perfect wives like their mothers, divorce was not so taboo anymore, kids began being raised on welfare and moms were off living the lives they didn't get to live while they were living at home with their parents.. suddenly they had freedom. They let us tag along.

And then of course we have vietnam, another huge issue of the 70's that forever changed the men ( and boys) who were to soon become husbands and fathers or would be coming home to their families... and a society that was pretty much against them. Mental health treatment was pretty much unheard of unless you were being locked away in a back ward some place and drugged to the point that you couldn't even walk. So nobody got help for their issues, it just seeped out into the next generation. Now, of course I realize not every family was like this, not every parent was using, not every dad was messed up from vietnam but the ones who did, the ones who were- had a huge impact on society. I have always felt the 70's and the social issues that came with it had a huge hand in the "me, me, me" trend that continues to worsen with each generation.

Anyway, I just wanted to try and explain what I was getting at with "sign of the times".

Add to that in the 60's & 70's, we saw daily updates on the news of Vietnam, black children being bused into white schools, riots, and the dichotomy of the culture. Either you were born into a family that represented the "establishment" or one that was against it. Women were just starting to go to work (really the first time since WW2 this happened in masses) and it was essentially the first time we saw a need for quality childcare (which really didn't exist on a major scale). The older generation had no clue how to impart wisdom without sounding "square" and they just literally shook their heads. Drugs and alcohol and prescription mood altering drugs were the norm (at least one of those issues was accepted in most families). CA & GA are just at that age of growing up in this time era. They were having children in the 80's which was another whole "Me" generation where focus was on big clothing, big hair, big partying, and other struggles. These issues do play into how people think and respond in their environment.

 

[logicalgirl]

Add to that in the 60's & 70's, we saw daily updates on the news of Vietnam, black children being bused into white schools, riots, and the dichotomy of the culture. Either you were born into a family that represented the "establishment" or one that was against it. Women were just starting to go to work (really the first time since WW2 this happened in masses) and it was essentially the first time we saw a need for quality childcare (which really didn't exist on a major scale). The older generation had no clue how to impart wisdom without sounding "square" and they just literally shook their heads. Drugs and alcohol and prescription mood altering drugs were the norm (at least one of those issues was accepted in most families). CA & GA are just at that age of growing up in this time era. They were having children in the 80's which was another whole "Me" generation where focus was on big clothing, big hair, big partying, and other struggles. These issues do play into how people think and respond in their environment.

And you forgot a couple of big ones - the pill and legal abortions. Certainly the 70's were about women tasting freedom by being able to work outside of the home, and seek a career of their choice. The pill was the threshold of that "freedom" - and in retrospect I'd take back the word freedom and insert the word choice, now I'm looking back. Women choosing to work or having to work in my mind has made a dramatic change across communities in North America. IMO - that statement is not meant as a judgement.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Thank you all for sharing your stories. When you think about it, times have really changed a lot. It's a wonder how any of us get through a day taking into account all the wacky stuff we did and were exposed to by the generation before us as well as the one we are a part of.

When I read that OLG was born in the 70's, I thought, "wait, I was of the opinion I was older than OLG". It took me a few minutes to sort it out that I was born in the 50's and graduated HS in the 70's. Yikes. But I didn't become a mother until much later in life breaking the cycle of the 21/22 year difference that seemed the trend between mother and child in my maternal line. When you're an older mom, you know too much and it's hard to relax. When you're a younger mom, you know too little and relax too much - ha!
Most of us try to do our best and do okay short of serious mental issues but it's tough. My mom always says "just love, show your love, let him know he is loved, never let him forget that you love him." Even though my mom was around KC's age when I was born, she always took care of me and I felt safe. But my mom would go into a sadness kind of thing because she saw her mom struggle through the depression alone. I've posted before that my mom was the original latchkey kid (she had an aunt nearby and the three flat she lived in had good neighbors - one phone in the hallway to share within the building). My mom would turn inward at times and I think I may have thought it had something to do with me. I learned that from reading here. She says she felt so lonely as a child at times yet she is one of the nicest (too nice) peeps you'd ever want to meet but insecure too (yet I wouldn't describe her that way anymore). Somehow she's always had a strong sense of right from wrong and is honest as the day is long. Children notice those things.

The reason I share the above is because we all are broken to some degree, in some way. We can grow and do grow when we want to. Ultimately we are responsible for figuring out ourselves I guess but it's interesting to study the whys but not to get stuck there. Luckily we can't relate to wanting to hurt a child which is why I became captivated by this case. I still can't wrap by brain around people who want to hurt a child - it's near impossible for me to fathom.

 

[logicalgirl]

Your post was beautiful.