The Re-Ordered American Girl Doll..

[DeeDee249]

My theory on the bear/belt/earring/pouch is that JB wore the earrings to the event at which she was given the Santa Bear. They were possibly stored in that little pouch, and because they were clip ons and likely hurt her earlobes at some point, were removed. In carrying the bear into the house, one of the earrings dropped into the street, where it was later found. I do not think the earrings, bear, belt or pouch had anything to do with the crime at all, with the exception of Patsy claiming she had never seen the bear.
That was, of course, an OBVIOUS lie and one that is provable because the bear is lying right on the spare twin bed in JB's room, on which is also clothing that Patsy was laying out to sort or pack for the trip, and may also have had the black velvet pants that JB wore that night lying on the bed as well. The crime photo which shows the bear was taken AFTER the crime (obviously) and Patsy would have seen the bear as she was packing/sorting clothes on that same bed.

 

[Hexe]

I do not think the earrings, bear, belt or pouch had anything to do with the crime at all, with the exception of Patsy claiming she had never seen the bear.
That was, of course, an OBVIOUS lie and one that is provable because the bear is lying right on the spare twin bed in JB's room, on which is also clothing that Patsy was laying out to sort or pack for the trip, and may also have had the black velvet pants that JB wore that night lying on the bed as well. The crime photo which shows the bear was taken AFTER the crime (obviously) and Patsy would have seen the bear as she was packing/sorting clothes on that same bed.

But if the bear had nothing to do with the crime, why Patsy claimed she had never seen the bear? Why lie about an innocent stuffed toy?

 

[Venom]

But if the bear had nothing to do with the crime, why Patsy claimed she had never seen the bear? Why lie about an innocent stuffed toy?

Maybe to just further confuse things?

 

[DeeDee249]

But if the bear had nothing to do with the crime, why Patsy claimed she had never seen the bear? Why lie about an innocent stuffed toy?

I think it was just one more way to distance herself from that room, her daughter, and everything else that happened. Actually, I believe that Santa Bear was given to JB while Patsy was in NYC on one of the two trips she took before Christmas that year. (JB was with her on one of them). Nedra and her husband watched the kids that weekend, and I think that was when she got the bear. Police were able to track down the manufacturer, then traced it to the pageant coordinators, who admitted giving the bear to JB. Still, I have no idea why Patsy lied about it. Just one more lie, in my book.

Unless it played some part in the crime- but I cannot imagine what.

 

[CoreyRocks]

I totally agree. IMO...as I have said before...I believe that the tape that was over JB's mouth, which was said to have not even been sticky (Fleet even picked it up and looked at it, turning it over and over, sensing that something just wasn't quite right with it), came from that AG doll. The AG doll that Pam took wasn't taken into evidence...imo...that is the very reason that Pam carted it out of the house. It could have had sticky residue on it, from where the tape had been. And if investigators had of gotten their hands on it, before Pam...the would have probably have been able to see that the stick residue on the doll, and the tape over JB's mouth..was an exact match. IMO So, yeah, I believe that John ordered another one, just in case it was decided that they would take that doll for evidence. Then he could say.."See, this doll still has the tape in place", so the tape over JB's mouth couldn't have come from the doll.

This AG doll thing is still bugging me. Maybe revisiting with fresh eyes will help. Prior threads mentioned staging known only to LE and killer (s).

I thought the Molly doll was in the WC with other dolls arranged like the one in the grainy photo. Looks like a blonde doll in Pink dress on white blanket to me (in photo).

Molly is brunette. Molly is the doll ordered on 1/1/97 and sent to AG. Pleasant Co. only closed on Christmas so would have been open NY Day to take orders. Money order then mailed to Wisconsin and doll shipped.

My thoughts only it was to replace broken Molly doll used in staging .... tape, cord removal, blue wool fibers, tan fibers from doll body, cotton from inside body.

Somehow that doll has some answers. Why else would Pam needed to remove it for the Ramseys?

 

[Tadpole12]

molly doll:

https://www.google.ca/search?q=moll...X&ved=0ahUKEwjjs7nJxdfMAhXq64MKHfwhCMYQsAQIGg

 

[pukasonqo2]

I think it was just one more way to distance herself from that room, her daughter, and everything else that happened. Actually, I believe that Santa Bear was given to JB while Patsy was in NYC on one of the two trips she took before Christmas that year. (JB was with her on one of them). Nedra and her husband watched the kids that weekend, and I think that was when she got the bear. Police were able to track down the manufacturer, then traced it to the pageant coordinators, who admitted giving the bear to JB. Still, I have no idea why Patsy lied about it. Just one more lie, in my book.

Unless it played some part in the crime- but I cannot imagine what.

it might have been pointed out already so apologies just in case
one of the friends they threw under the bus was "santa" bill reynolds; the "secret visit" by santa that JB mentioned (did anybody but the Rs mentions it?) and an "unknown" santa toy found in her bedroom would make him a suspect: he visited late at night, brought the toy for JB and spent the rest of that long night staging the CS while everybody slept, happily tucked in their beds
this case is soooo convoluted!!!! still, i think is a RDI

 

[AndHence]

That golf bag appears in a crime photo right outside the wineceller door- literally steps from JBR's body. I have always been suspicious of JR's request for his golf bag. It was late December in Colorado- where was he going to golf? There was the upcoming funeral in Atlanta- but imagine the mind-set needed to plan a day of golf around your little girl's funeral? ("Gee, I hope I get to play a few holes after we plant JonBenet".)
There was something much more important about that golf bag. And I'd bet all the missing links are right inside. Or were.

Was Pam able to remove the golf clubs from the house? I thought I remembered reading in PMPT that John didn't get those clubs back, but I could be mistaken.

 

[pukasonqo2]

i think she actually did, but one of the posters with more knowledge will know for sure
such a weird thing to ask for, your DD has ben murdered but you want your golf clubs? it makes you wonder if the head injury was done (accidentally or not) with one of those golf clubs


Lupus est *advertiser censored* homini, non *advertiser censored*, quom qualis sit non novit

 

[Tadpole12]

Was Pam able to remove the golf clubs from the house? I thought I remembered reading in PMPT that John didn't get those clubs back, but I could be mistaken.

AndHence ....
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-golf-clubs.htm

IRMI, ST, p48
"That evening, John Ramsey went to Crist Mortuary to discuss funeral arrangements. In addition to the usual rites, transportation was needed for burial in Atlanta.
Patsy awoke while he was gone and staggered from the bedroom to a couch, barely able to speak, and told her sisters she needed some things from Fifteenth Street. John was overheard to ask someone quietly, "Did you get my golf bag?" When I learned of that statement, it seemed totally out of order. There had been two golf bags in the house, but he had not specified which one he wanted. Neither bag was collected by police. Moreover, it was winter in Colorado, Michigan, and Georgia, not exactly optimal golfing conditions. Why would a man whose daughter had just been murdered be wanting his golf clubs anyway? I wondered what else might have been in the bag that was so important that Ramsey would even think to ask about it."

 

[otg]

it might have been pointed out already so apologies just in case
one of the friends they threw under the bus was "santa" bill reynolds; the "secret visit" by santa that JB mentioned (did anybody but the Rs mentions it?) and an "unknown" santa toy found in her bedroom would make him a suspect: he visited late at night, brought the toy for JB and spent the rest of that long night staging the CS while everybody slept, happily tucked in their beds
this case is soooo convoluted!!!! still, i think is a RDI

You know (don't you) that the “’unknown’ santa toy found in her bedroom” was a complete red herring. It came from Patsy’s June, 1998, interview when she denied knowledge of a white Santa bear that appeared in crime scene photos on JonBenet’s bed. That started a search and even a public appeal for help in identifying the toy and any information available about it. Patsy’s sister Pam even went on TV claiming she had seen it when she raided the hellhole with Hunter’s blessing on December 28. Even worse -- she further claimed (perhaps because of something she had heard someone else say) that it had an ominous note in a pouch attached to it.

The bear was finally identified, and it turned out that it was a prize JonBenet had received when she won the title of "Little Miss Christmas" on December 14, 1996, at her very last competition in the Amerikids Pageant. The pageant director said that she had purchased it as a prize, and it was videotaped on a table along with the other prizes given away.

More about the incident here:
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-santa-bear-mystery.htm

 

[singularity]

This maybe?

First time reading this thread. The situation with the various dolls is bizarre and like a mystery within the bigger mystery which is why I clicked on the thread. The photo above and more specifically other photos of Jonbenet taken at this event always disturbed me. Been years since seeing them but there are closeups of her face.

I was a drug user off and on for 20 years and I had a knack for being able to tell by someones eyes if they were on something. IMO Jonbenet appears to be drugged in some of her pageant photos. Due to the specific "glaze" in her eyes I would wager vicodin or oxycodone....maybe benzos. God only knows who gave it to her or why(if I am correct). I do know that taking the prescription drugs I just mentioned can cause the user to get constipated over time. We know how she was prone to have 'accidents' and I suppose its possible someone gave her low doses to prevent such things from happening in such public settings as this.

If this is possible, it may not even be the Ramseys guilty of doing it. God only knows what goes on behind the scenes at these pageants.

While I am definitely RDI, how serious was BPD's investigation into this pagaent world and Jonbenet's experiences in it? I know it was barely covered in the books. The media jumped all over it but that was just to plaster the pics/footage all over magazines/ TV for the shock value.


To bring it back on topic, this whole thing concerning dolls needed a VERY close look. Regardless of who actually ordered it, sending that specific doll to Access Graphics IN Jonbenet's name is macabre.

So was the staging in the WC....with a different doll.

Someone in this family had a strange fascination with dolls. Same with the western theme of rope and boots.

I think if the full story ever comes out about the various layers of dysfunction in this family's lives, it is going to shock people to the core.

 

[UKGuy]

singularity,

JonBenet on drugs, is this possible, I suppose so. Patsy is documented as taking prescription drugs, so there is a precedent. The doll issue is another red flag signaling its an RDI case.

The doll ordered via Access might represent staging in an attempt to add more stuff to the case, presumably its counterpart is missing, it could have been used to hide say underwear, or was used in some ritual sense during the death of JonBenet?

With the hints generated by Kolar I'm inclined to think the latter since if JonBenet's bedroom was left with the residue of forensic evidence then what else had been removed must have been substantial?

Consider JonBenet neatly redressed and wrapped in the blanket in the wine-cellar then compare with the mess in her bedroom, something does not add up?

.

 

[sgrump]

I've read the 'drug' of choice with the pageants is to give the little girls as much caffeine as they can handle, Mountain Dew and similar 'gogo juice' drinks to get them hyper for the judges.

The dolls remain a mystery. Why on earth remove them in the first place? Dead children don't play with toys.

Burke wasn't going to play with them (or was he???)

Not only do the dolls implicate the Ramseys in knowing whatever chit went down in their home but also the BPD and BDA in conspiring to help them cover it up as they did nothing when informed.

 

[BOESP]

Hey, click on the link below...it will answer alot of your questions about the American Girl Doll.

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=5782&highlight=American+Girl+Doll

Bumping this thread and above link to add to the current discussion about the dolls. The first few posts at the above link explain a lot as do the first few posts in this bumped thread.

 

[sgrump]

The original AG dolls were made for ages over 8. The hair care is not anything a younger child can handle, a 6 year old can't even care for their own hair unless they get a pixie cut. The doll company recommends the neck cord can be tucked into the clothing but a lesser known alternative was using duct tape. It's usually not an issue, older girls have the skills and don't have problems.


Most likely the doll just happened to be in the vicinity - visible when the cover up ensued. Most likely in Jonbenet's bedroom, we all have to hope they tried to attend her injury. We haven't seen all the pictures but her room was messy, the floor strewn with toys and clothes. The doll connection was happenstance. They were staging the garrote and saw the tape on the doll and had an idea... The tape was applied vanity style, showing all the features of her face and taking care not to rip out her hair. Had it been an intruder and a violent home invasion it would have been wrapped a couple times around her head catching her jewelry and hair. The half piece is what they use in movies so you can still see the movie star's expressions.

AS for the doll being delivered to Access graphics, how could they have it come to 15TH street, they had virtually moved out and the police were a presence. They did come back to CO, in time for the delivery of the mystery doll. What a coinkydink.

Why didn't John run to police or the DA with this doll?
Who even knew about the dolls being removed? (not many)
Why didn't the police or DA follow up?

IMO the garrote cord likely came off the painting they removed. Pictures are hung with all manner of cords and strings and if the Ramseys were so conniving with the doll I think they were with the source of cord as well.

JMO

 

[Tadpole12]

First time reading this thread. The situation with the various dolls is bizarre and like a mystery within the bigger mystery which is why I clicked on the thread. The photo above and more specifically other photos of Jonbenet taken at this event always disturbed me. Been years since seeing them but there are closeups of her face.

I was a drug user off and on for 20 years and I had a knack for being able to tell by someones eyes if they were on something. IMO Jonbenet appears to be drugged in some of her pageant photos. Due to the specific "glaze" in her eyes I would wager vicodin or oxycodone....maybe benzos. God only knows who gave it to her or why(if I am correct). I do know that taking the prescription drugs I just mentioned can cause the user to get constipated over time. We know how she was prone to have 'accidents' and I suppose its possible someone gave her low doses to prevent such things from happening in such public settings as this.

If this is possible, it may not even be the Ramseys guilty of doing it. God only knows what goes on behind the scenes at these pageants.

While I am definitely RDI, how serious was BPD's investigation into this pagaent world and Jonbenet's experiences in it? I know it was barely covered in the books. The media jumped all over it but that was just to plaster the pics/footage all over magazines/ TV for the shock value.


To bring it back on topic, this whole thing concerning dolls needed a VERY close look. Regardless of who actually ordered it, sending that specific doll to Access Graphics IN Jonbenet's name is macabre.

So was the staging in the WC....with a different doll.

Someone in this family had a strange fascination with dolls. Same with the western theme of rope and boots.

I think if the full story ever comes out about the various layers of dysfunction in this family's lives, it is going to shock people to the core.

heyya singularity,

Due to the specific "glaze" in her eyes I would wager vicodin or oxycodone....maybe benzos. (benzos=benzodiazepines) - s

That's a very interesting observation.
wrt the glazed eyes.... and the administration of these kinds of drugs to JBR,
maybe an ADHD medication, Ritalin or Adderall?

 

[sgrump]

IMO the doll situation is the most conclusive piece of evidence of the Ramsey family, all three participating and knowing exactly what happened.

 

[singularity]

Had it been an intruder and a violent home invasion it would have been wrapped a couple times around her head catching her jewelry and hair. The half piece is what they use in movies so you can still see the movie star's expressions.

Excellent observation.

AS for the doll being delivered to Access graphics, how could they have it come to 15TH street, they had virtually moved out and the police were a presence. They did come back to CO, in time for the delivery of the mystery doll. What a coinkydink.

Indeed.

IMO the doll situation is the most conclusive piece of evidence of the Ramsey family, all three participating and knowing exactly what happened.

I don't know about that(not saying I disagree) but the whole doll thing was always creepy....even more so after seeing that picture of one in the wine cellar.

Strange intruders don't do that. It's too personal.

 

[sgrump]

Could just be she was exhausted, she was working as hard as any child actor or model but without the legal protections they receive because of the amateur status of pageants. In professional work younger kids are so limited time wise twins are frequently used.

Back to the dolls, if Pam removed them on Dec 28th and one was ordered on Jan 1st, the person that ordered the 'replacement' would have had to known Pam's actions AND would have to be a regular customer with a catalogue, they didn't go online until 1998. Seems to fishy to mean anything other than the Ramseys took the duct tape off the doll, put it on Jonbenet's dead lips and to hide or cover up the fact the doll was replaced in case the police came calling to inventory it.