The "set up' questions

[icedtea4me]

Jolamom,
There is likely forensic evidence linking BR to JonBenet that has not been made public otherwise there is no reason for JR to say he left the flashlight in BR's room or for BR to say he went back downstairs about the same time period JonBenet was allegedly abducted and killed?*snip*

Thank you for providing a source for John saying "I left the flashlight in Burke's room". That was so very kind of you.
And it would have been absolutely, positively 100% impossible for Burke to have taken care of doing what he could to put together his toy, gone back up to his room, gotten back in his bed, and fallen asleep prior to JonBenet being killed because....?

 

[UKGuy]

Thank you for providing a source for John saying "I left the flashlight in Burke's room". That was so very kind of you.
And it would have been absolutely, positively 100% impossible for Burke to have taken care of doing what he could to put together his toy, gone back up to his room, gotten back in his bed, and fallen asleep prior to JonBenet being killed because....?

icedtea4me,
From memory, always a bad move, JR said on the the Dr Phil show he used the flashlight to put BR to bed. He never said anything about taking it back downstairs.

So I assume BR took it downstairs? That is naturally just theory derived from what is out there, but I reckon BR had some kind of interaction with the flashlight, otherwise why would JR, after all these years, suddenly bring it into play?

And it would have been absolutely, positively 100% impossible for Burke to have taken care of doing what he could to put together his toy, gone back up to his room, gotten back in his bed, and fallen asleep prior to JonBenet being killed because....?

there was no toy, have you seen it, in its constructed as opposed to its dismantled state?

There is no backup that JR or BR's version of events is factually correct, for the night JonBenet was killed. So deriving contradictions from BR's version of events is fine and dandy, its a cute websleuths parlour game, but it does not advance us forward very far.

Plainly BR's version of events could have played out as he outlines them, this does not mean he did not assault JonBenet after engaging with his toy?

Similar reasoning applies to PDI or JDI.

.

 

[Jolamom]

Jolamom,
There is likely forensic evidence linking BR to JonBenet that has not been made public otherwise there is no reason for JR to say he left the flashlight in BR's room or for BR to say he went back downstairs about the same time period JonBenet was allegedly abducted and killed?

If they said nothing more then the flashlight may well be theirs, and belong in their home, it would have covered any forensic evidence would it have not? There really wasn't any reason they had to both have but the flashlight in their hands that night in order to account for anything left behind.That is why neither of them speaking up now, 20 years after the fact actually makes much sense.

Another theory might be that both JR and BR know beyond doubt that the case is PDI, yet they want the media show to keep rolling so they keep inventing some new stuff around each anniversary date?

Why? If it was PDI, why not at this point, let the world know the facts and be done with it? Why go on facing a lifetime of being made to feel like a suspect when you are not to blame? I can't think John would want that for his children, especially Burke.

JR thought by getting BR to do Dr Phil they could counteract the CBS Documentary, since they knew what was going to be broadcast, i.e. they had seen previews, so ahead of broadcast they never really knew what CBS would publish, but they knew some of the allegations were backed up by forensics, hence JR and BR tweaking their story, just in case it all went public?

In the event an episode was dropped and some scenes were edited out of the other episodes to avoid litigation, which left BR's Dr Phil appearance looking disjointed.

.

I imagine they did know what was coming from the CBS show but having watched the Dr. Phil episode, I am not sure what they were hoping to achieve. It certainly didn't do them any favors by airing that show and if anything, it damaged them in many ways.

 

[TeaTime]

Thank you for providing a source for John saying "I left the flashlight in Burke's room". That was so very kind of you.
And it would have been absolutely, positively 100% impossible for Burke to have taken care of doing what he could to put together his toy, gone back up to his room, gotten back in his bed, and fallen asleep prior to JonBenet being killed because....?

I think that if you take the time they said they finally went to bed, then BR telling the world he went downstairs, by himself, after everyone was in bed, combined with the time of death you will be able to put it together.

 

[icedtea4me]

I think that if you take the time they said they finally went to bed, then BR telling the world he went downstairs, by himself, after everyone was in bed, combined with the time of death you will be able to put it together.

It would have been absolutely, positively 100% impossible for Burke to have taken care of doing what he could to put together his toy, gone back up to his room, gotten back in his bed, and fallen asleep prior to JonBenet being killed because....?​

 

[icedtea4me]

icedtea4me,
From memory, always a bad move, JR said on the the Dr Phil show he used the flashlight to put BR to bed. He never said anything about taking it back downstairs.

So I assume BR took it downstairs?*snip*

So, you think that only these two options (take it back downstairs or leave it in Burke's room) exist regarding the flashlight, yes or no?

 

[Cottonstar]

It’s unknown when the flashlight appeared on the kitchen counter. Someone moved it during the kidnapping phase, to where it was pictured on the crime scene video, that was shot on the night of the 26th.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[UKGuy]

So, you think that only these two options (take it back downstairs or leave it in Burke's room) exist regarding the flashlight, yes or no?

icedtea4me,
No, there are other alternatives but these belong in different theories, e.g. JR took the flashlight to his bedroom, Patsy picked up the flashlight upstairs for whatever reason, etc.

Lets face it the flashlight is not going to fly airborne downstairs is it? Like I mentioned before what we hear from JR and BR might be fiction to hide Patsy's involvement, i.e. Patsy used the flashlight.

So the case can still be PDI despite JR claiming responsibility for a flashlight he said he did not recognize years ago.

.

 

[UKGuy]

If they said nothing more then the flashlight may well be theirs, and belong in their home, it would have covered any forensic evidence would it have not? There really wasn't any reason they had to both have but the flashlight in their hands that night in order to account for anything left behind.That is why neither of them speaking up now, 20 years after the fact actually makes much sense.
Why? If it was PDI, why not at this point, let the world know the facts and be done with it? Why go on facing a lifetime of being made to feel like a suspect when you are not to blame? I can't think John would want that for his children, especially Burke.
I imagine they did know what was coming from the CBS show but having watched the Dr. Phil episode, I am not sure what they were hoping to achieve. It certainly didn't do them any favors by airing that show and if anything, it damaged them in many ways.

Jolamom,

If they said nothing more then the flashlight may well be theirs, and belong in their home, it would have covered any forensic evidence would it have not? There really wasn't any reason they had to both have but the flashlight in their hands that night in order to account for anything left behind.That is why neither of them speaking up now, 20 years after the fact actually makes much sense.

It only makes sense if they know something important that we do not. JR says, as per Dr Phil, he took the flashlight upstairs, he is not making any claims about bringing it back downstairs.

Dr Phil Show, excerpt

Phil: I think your dad had said he used the flashlight that night to put you to bed that night and then you snuck downstairs to play.
Burke: yeah. I had some toy I wanted to put together. I remember being downstairs after everyone was kind of in bed...

1. Burke's bedroom was on the second floor. Being downstairs can just as well apply to the first floor where his brand new toy would more likely be.

2. He said "I had some toy I wanted to put together", not "I had some toy I wanted to play with."

BR is claiming to have returned back downstairs once everyone was in bed. Presumably he used the flashlight to find his way down to and about the basement?

Neither of the above events might have happened simply because JR and BR do not want you to know exactly what the trajectory of the flashlight was?

They recognize that the flashlight, probably for forensic reasons, requires an explanation, so JR supplies one.

The flashlight might have started out in PR's hands and ended up being used to whack JonBenet. As per JR's story, BR could have snuck along to JonBenet's bedroom, knowing full well he needed it as JonBenet's bedroom light had been replaced? Along with the Bloomimgdale's underwear Patsy claimed she also purchased JonBenet a nice new bedside lamp?

So that is new lamp, new ceiling fan, so assailant knows flashlight is required?

July 21, 1998 Linda Wilcox (former Ramsey housekeeper) interview on Peter Boyles Show

Linda Wilcox: "Gut feeling more than anything. But even now, more than then, I would (garbled) on everything I have that a stranger did not kill JonBenet. The lay of the house doesn't... it would be very difficult. Possibly, there are people who are professional. But then they would have done a professional job. Lots of little things contribute to my belief. Someone who didn't know that house, really well, couldn't have done what they done (sic) without being noticed. It's not possible. It is physically impossible. You had to know little things. Like for example, you walk in the room and hit the switch, the light doesn't come on. See, cause when the room was redone, they put in a ceiling fan, one of the metal ones, without a light kit on it. The only light in her room was the lamp between the two beds. You have to physically walk over and turn it on. It isn't run by the switch. The switch was meant to run the overhead ceiling light which was removed to install the ceiling fan."

(0250-15) THOMAS HANEY: Okay. How about number 4 here, this is with that lamp on. And would that be normal, to leave that on? PATSY RAMSEY: No. Not when she is sleeping. THOMAS HANEY: Do you recall that lamp being on in the morning of the 26th? PATSY RAMSEY: No. I don't remember. TRIP DeMUTH: How do you turn that lamp on? PATSY RAMSEY: With, you know -- TRIP DeMUTH: You have to go to the lamp to turn it on? PATSY RAMSEY: Yes. TRIP DeMUTH: Not a light switch on the wall? PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think so. I can't remember. That was a fairly new lamp, I had just gotten that in New York, in December. I can't remember (INAUDIBLE).

I imagine they did know what was coming from the CBS show but having watched the Dr. Phil episode, I am not sure what they were hoping to achieve. It certainly didn't do them any favors by airing that show and if anything, it damaged them in many ways.

They were attempting to limit any damage to BR's reputation from the CBS show by fronting up BR with a nicee script, except BR misspoke talking about JonBenet flaunting herself in public, etc. It just blew up in JR's face, despite BR getting media coaching, his nervous fidgeting, inane cheshire cat smiles did him no favors, so much so, Dr Phil had to run an extra salvage episode to tell everyone that BR was really a nice, sweet but misunderstood guy.

The flashlight was likely used in JonBenet's bedroom and it probably arrived there via either Patsy or Burke?

This scenario is what the R's are attempting to hide by offering alternatives to the flashlight's journey that night?

.

 

[s(he) be(lie)ve(d)]

UK,

LOL! BR, gives one interview and twenty years of Ramsey spin, starts to unravel. LOL! He not only associates, he and his father with the unrecognized flashlight, he puts it in JR's hand. Then he puts himself back down stairs where said flashlight ended up, creating speculation on how that happened. Hmmm, Where are their finger prints. LOL!

I wonder how all of this plays out after JR is gone.

 

[ItzShea]

Slowly, as if she had eaten fruit cocktail that was drugged?

 

[ItzShea]

Correct, but I was not thinking in terms of the RN, just in terms of their other behavior that morning. The RN was just a diversion. The parents were never truthfully concerned about it although they semi-pretended to be. The true purpose of the 911 call was not to get help for a kidnapping. The purpose of the 911 call was for JB's body to be found by police. Without even understanding who killed JB or why, we can understand the parent's motivations concerning the dead body. Their daughter was dead and her body was in the house, slowly decomposing. The parents were under great pressure to have her body found and taken out of the house. I believe they fully expected for police to find her body as they were searching the house. When they didn't, JR loses patience and just gets her body himself and brings it upstairs. He knew all along where she was because he put her body there. I am not saying he killed her, just that he placed her body there after she was already dead. That is my read of it at least. Her body was in the basement because that room was the furthest away her dead body could be from the rest of the family and still be in the house. It does not necessarily mean she was killed in that room. Look it like this. Imagine your daughter is dead. It is around 1 or 2 AM. You want to wait until the morning to call police, for whatever reason. What do you do with the corpse until then? You put it as far away from you as you can, which was that room.

I think she was wrapped up ‘like a papoose’ as John said, because the body was in the freezer.

 

[887sMtreme]

I think she was wrapped up ‘like a papoose’ as John said, because the body was in the freezer.

Which freezer? For how long? Are you saying the rigor noted by LA when JR carried her up from the cellar was instead freezing? Why the smell of decomposition she also noted then? Frozen meat doesn't smell until it thaws out. Thawing produces water. There was no water under JBR's body that we know of. What brings you to your conclusion? Please share!

 

[EtherealMoonRose]

Slowly, as if she had eaten fruit cocktail that was drugged?

No drugs were found in her system.

 

[Userid]

I think she was wrapped up ‘like a papoose’ as John said, because the body was in the freezer.

I never understood how she could be "wrapped up like a papoose" when her arms were stretched out above her head. To be "wrapped" like that means that the entire body and head (other than the face being visible) is completely wrapped, isn't it? Her arms would have prevented her from being wrapped around the head/face.

 

[BoldBear]

While I don't have much faith in the investigators, I believe they would have checked the freezer in the basement for fiber samples. I also believe his description was about how her body was wrapped-up in the blanket; although, it isn't crazy to think that someone could have folded parts of the blanket over her arms even if they were up around her head.

 

[Userid]

While I don't have much faith in the investigators, I believe they would have checked the freezer in the basement for fiber samples. I also believe his description was about how her body was wrapped-up in the blanket; although, it isn't crazy to think that someone could have folded parts of the blanket over her arms even if they were up around her head.

True, but then, she wouldn't necessarily be "papoose"-like.

 

[Tricia]

Hey Everyone,

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Please do not donate if it puts a hardship on you in any way shape or form. $5 dollars feels like a million when you don't have it. I completely understand.

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Take Care,
Tricia

 

[ItzShea]

Quote Originally Posted by dodie20 View Post
How could they admit to feeding JB, but then have an investigator turn around with, 'and she was bashed within minutes of eating and we can prove it through digestion'. How could the Rs even pretend to not hear anything, if this so called intruder attacked their daughter within minutes of swallowing what they, the Rs fed her?
She was bashed within minutes of her eating the pineapple and they can prove it?
Then either she ate it, it was drugged, she was molested and killed while they were out the night before, brought home dead and wrapped ‘like a papoose’ in blankets. (The M.E. said her body smelled of decomposition).
Or it all unwound exactly as presented in the CBS special.

 

[BoldBear]

Quote Originally Posted by dodie20 View Post
How could they admit to feeding JB, but then have an investigator turn around with, 'and she was bashed within minutes of eating and we can prove it through digestion'. How could the Rs even pretend to not hear anything, if this so called intruder attacked their daughter within minutes of swallowing what they, the Rs fed her?
She was bashed within minutes of her eating the pineapple and they can prove it?
Then either she ate it, it was drugged, she was molested and killed while they were out the night before, brought home dead and wrapped ‘like a papoose’ in blankets. (The M.E. said her body smelled of decomposition).
Or it all unwound exactly as presented in the CBS special.

Seems to me like it would be prudent to research the questions you reposted. What type of drugs would do this? What type of drugs wouldn't be traced in an autopsy. Are those drugs readily available or did someone need special access to pharmaceuticals. If so, who would have that access? A good google search can help answer those questions.

The amount of time it would take to move pineapple from the stomach to the duodenum has been discussed. As I recall, pineapple gets moved faster than many other foods because of its sugar and fiber content. It takes several minutes, but no one was able to pinpoint a specific amount of time. I'm fairly comfortable with a 10 to 30 minute time frame but that's only from my reading the WS discussions. Her stomach was empty so the food moved past the pyloric sphincter. I'm still not sure if her stomach was empty because all of its contents were moved into the duodenum or if her body tried to purge the contents of her stomach after the head blow. If she threw up, the pyloric sphincter would have stayed closed in order to push the contents of the stomach up and out.

The fact that she was in full rigor and smelled of death also helps to pinpoint her time of death. Unfortunately, the coroner showed up late and failed to do some basic tests to indicate TOD. It would have been nice to have that information. I wouldn't be surprised if this case was the model of what not to do during a kidnapping/murder in law enforcement textbooks.