The "set up' questions

[Meara]

How this might further the discussion I don't know, but here goes -

The American Heritage Dictionary lists under "setup" these two definitions (among others):

A table setting, as in a restaurant.
and
A deceptive scheme, such as a fraud or hoax.

If the Rams had gone straight home from the White's, rather than dropping off Christmas gifts as they claimed, the friends named would have spoken up about this when Rams' statements became public, no?

PMPT mentions that on the morning of the 26th, Rev. Hoverstock was observed heating a glass of water in the microwave to make tea. Strange. Any chance the glass on the breakfast room table was his? Or that he made it for Burke? IOW, can we say for sure that the tea and the pineapple (or the tissues, for that matter) were placed on the table/consumed at the same time?

 

[txsvicki]

I have tons of unanswered questions, like was the dishwasher full of clean dishes and how big a mess was there in the kitchen. Mostly about fiber, urine, and blood evidence though. Like, what fibers were in the wrist cord knots, were there carpet fibers or comforter fibers on the blanket, was the dryer lint removed from the filter, where were the blood spots on the gown and blanket, was there any trace of urine on the back of JonBenet's longjohns, panty waist, or on the blanket, did B have a fleece jacket, new golf gloves, etc. etc.

 

[dodie20]

From The Prime Of Miss Jean Brodie:

"Sandy Stranger had a feeling at the time that they were supposed to be the happiest days of her life, and on her tenth birthday she said so to her best friend Jenny Gray who had been asked to TEA at Sandy's house. The speciality of the feast was PINEAPPLE CUBES WITH CREAM, and the speciality of the day was that they were left to themselves. To Sandy the unfamiliar PINEAPPLE had the authentic taste and appearance of happiness and she focussed her small eyes closely on the pale gold cubes before she scooped them up in her SPOON, and she ... Both girls saved the CREAM to the last, then ate it in SPOONFULS."

IMO, this is just 1 book among many that may or may not relate to this case. For instance, (I'm probably wrong on some details, but my mistakes aren't intentional), wasn't it BM's wife who wrote a book or play that was similar to this case? And if you haven't read the 'other 3 page ransom note', it's posted on this site. It's so similar that it looks like it might have been used as a guide to writing ransom notes 101. A book and a movie were based on this case, and the movie starred a former Miss America...things that make you go hmmm. Then there's the book in the suitcase- a Dr. Seuss, I think, the book that JR was supposedly reading, the many Bible verses, the dictionary with the incest page bent back, and lines from the movies Speed and several others. There were also the books found about parenting and children with problems, the mystery/crime books they read, the bookstore that was subpoenaed, and on and on. moo

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

IMO, this is just 1 book among many that may or may not relate to this case. For instance, (I'm probably wrong on some details, but my mistakes aren't intentional), wasn't it BM's wife who wrote a book or play that was similar to this case? And if you haven't read the 'other 3 page ransom note', it's posted on this site. It's so similar that it looks like it might have been used as a guide to writing ransom notes 101. A book and a movie were based on this case, and the movie starred a former Miss America...things that make you go hmmm. Then there's the book in the suitcase- a Dr. Seuss, I think, the book that JR was supposedly reading, the many Bible verses, the dictionary with the incest page bent back, and lines from the movies Speed and several others. There were also the books found about parenting and children with problems, the mystery/crime books they read, the bookstore that was subpoenaed, and on and on. moo

Yes, the key to this case is the signature of this case and that is the literature tied to the case. That is the red flag that indicates this is not based on an accident.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

And it is at least possible that the "set up" was put together BEFORE JonBenet died and it is similar to a scene in a book Patsy was known to have used in her pageants.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

IOW, can we say for sure that the tea and the pineapple (or the tissues, for that matter) were placed on the table/consumed at the same time?

No, all we can do is look at the possibilities, one of which is that the set up was put together as found before JonBenet died.

 

[Tawny]

Even IF (and that's a big if) it a scene taken from a book, isn't it possible it was just a snack before bed? Even IF Patsy is the one who set it up like that to resemble the scene from the book, it doesn't mean it's part of an intentional chain of events that led to an intentional murder, as though, in PR's mind, it was intentionally "This is JB's last happiness and then I shall descend into the pits of the home and turn her into an angel" or something.

I think they just had a snack. It was either with mom or with big bro and she likes pineapple. And then she lied about the snack because either she didn't know about it (BR gave JB a snack after bedtime unbeknownst to the parents) or she knew it would be proof she lied about JB being asleep when they got home.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

That is one of the possibilities of course, but the problem with that oversimplification (IMO) is the other literary factors; the open Bible to the Psalms with an initialsim connection to the r n, the open dictionary, Mind Hunter and apparently there were other books in the library that had similarities to the case according to Don Foster.

 

[CircuitGuy]

I guess that's why we are all going around in circles ten years later trying to figure it out. I disagree with [bonjoviblonde's] assertion. If it were as uncomplicated as you suggest it would have been solved by now. To this day I don't have a *advertiser censored**ing clue who killed JB. Looks like someone did a pretty good job of hiding the truth.

I don't think bonjoviblonde means "not complicated" as in "easily solved". I think she/he is saying it's a case of someone committing the murder for more common reason, e.g. fit of rage, sexual assult, insurance money, not a complicated spiritual reason.

Also, everything I've learned indicates the police didn't do a good job handling the investigation. The killer got lucky in that regard.

 

[CircuitGuy]

To me, the "set up" indicates that the kids were up and on their own to get into bed with the parents up on the third floor. There is so much to indicate that they were ignored until time to perform or party time. Whoever took over the crime scene went straight to drama with the note and didn't give a thought to what the kids were doing downstairs, snacks, dirty dishes, or dirty feet.

I don't understand what you're saying. You're saying the kids went from floor 2 to floor 1 to get a snack with the intention of joining their parents on floor 3?

Are you also saying the Ramsey's did it but neglected to think about the kids in the coverup?

 

[CircuitGuy]

Not too long ago, I did just what [anyhoo] suggested and concentrated on real evidence and the big picture I got was, PR's fibers in the garrote, JR's fibers in JB's underwear. IMO, this evidence tells a pretty good story of what happened in that house.

Can you say or give us a link another post in a relevant thread?

 

[otg]

(bbm)

To me, the "set up" indicates that the kids were up and on their own to get into bed with the parents up on the third floor. There is so much to indicate that they were ignored until time to perform or party time. Whoever took over the crime scene went straight to drama with the note and didn't give a thought to what the kids were doing downstairs, snacks, dirty dishes, or dirty feet.

I don't understand what you're saying. You're saying the kids went from floor 2 to floor 1 to get a snack with the intention of joining their parents on floor 3?

Are you also saying the Ramsey's did it but neglected to think about the kids in the coverup?

I think what txsvicki meant was that "the kids were up and left on their own to get into bed, while the parents were up on the third floor."

 

[Charterhouse]

Blue Bottle, I have had some psychiatric training but not near the level you have.

Please tell me if I have this correct:
PR was having a psychotic episode (A loss of contact with reality) during which she dissociated. (An altered state of consciousness that happened during a traumatic event.)

During this time she was able to disconnect from herself or depersonalize herself from strangling JB or doing what all she did. And then had disossociative amnesia??

I thought this was a good article that explained it in more layman's terms. http://www.jaapl.org/content/35/4/469.full

If this isn't correct, which it probably isn't, please explain it to me in a way I might be able to understand it.
Thank you

 

[dodie20]

I don't understand what you're saying. You're saying the kids went from floor 2 to floor 1 to get a snack with the intention of joining their parents on floor 3?

Are you also saying the Ramsey's did it but neglected to think about the kids in the coverup?

The way I took it is that the kids may have been up and snacking without the parents realizing it...and that's why they didn't know about the pineapple. Could be... If PR put the bowl in the refrigerator earlier in the day, that would explain her prints. moo

 

[Arnie M]

The way I took it is that the kids may have been up and snacking without the parents realizing it...and that's why they didn't know about the pineapple. Could be... If PR put the bowl in the refrigerator earlier in the day, that would explain her prints. moo

Zactly ... there are many "normal" scenarios that could explain the pineapple

And I think we could all agree Jonbenet was up and around the house when she was killed ... it is highly unlikely she was hit and strangled while sleeping in her bed.

And for a 10 year old boy to be up late christmas evening would not be unusual .... playing with presents past bedtime would be normal for a boy ... grabbing a snack from the fridge would not be unusual either.

I will always think Burke and Jonbenet were "up and around the house" past bedtime and then "the accident happened"

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

Blue Bottle, I have had some psychiatric training but not near the level you have.

Please tell me if I have this correct:
PR was having a psychotic episode (A loss of contact with reality) during which she dissociated. (An altered state of consciousness that happened during a traumatic event.)

During this time she was able to disconnect from herself or depersonalize herself from strangling JB or doing what all she did. And then had disossociative amnesia??

I thought this was a good article that explained it in more layman's terms. http://www.jaapl.org/content/35/4/469.full

If this isn't correct, which it probably isn't, please explain it to me in a way I might be able to understand it.
Thank you

I think Patsy had Borderline Personality Disorder due to being raised by a pathologically narcissistic mother. The psychosis was ongoing to various depths, my guess is it started before JonBenet was born. I also guess that she was dissociative in adolescence. That pattern accelerated in the months before Christmas '96. That deadline/threshold was the pressure point. The dissociation that night was episodic not the psychosis

To understand what Patsy did you have to remove JonBenet from the equation. JonBenet was an object. Patsy had been doing things to the object for some time to participate with what was going on in her mind.

Everything that Patsy did to JonBenet that night she was attempting to do to herself by proxy. After accomplishing the task within one set of persona parameters (introverted) she retreated to her social persona (extroverted) so that it could proceed to the next stage of life leading to death.

The odd thing is she did not have to depersonalize as you suggest.

MOO.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

Thanks for the article. Everyone interested in Patsy's case should read it. I will add this: Patsy's "trauma" was the denial of self by the mother, thus the fear of death (common) is attached to the repressed death of self (personal) experienced in childhood. MOO.

 

[CircuitGuy]

And I think we could all agree Jonbenet was up and around the house when she was killed ... it is highly unlikely she was hit and strangled while sleeping in her bed.

How do we know where it happened? (I'm sure there are many threads on this topic. Maybe you can point me to one.)

 

[bonjoviblonde]

I don't think bonjoviblonde means "not complicated" as in "easily solved". I think she/he is saying it's a case of someone committing the murder for more common reason, e.g. fit of rage, sexual assult, insurance money, not a complicated spiritual reason.

Also, everything I've learned indicates the police didn't do a good job handling the investigation. The killer got lucky in that regard.

Yes that is exactly what I meant. Thank you. I should have explained myself better in my first post.

 

[BOESP]

Imo, the police did exactly what they were told by the powers that be; they were given orders to treat the Ramseys as victims, not suspects (straight from the DA's office). The responding officers were investigating a kidnapping, not a homicide. Officers are humans and make mistakes, just like I do and everyone else does. The DA also tied the hands of the investigators by refusing to authorize warrants. The Ramseys failed to cooperate even with independent attorneys at their sides; they refused to speak with police for four months. Innocent parents intent on finding their child's killer don't do that. They may have answered questions when officers arrived but they were questions concerning a kidnapping, not a homicide. The Ramseys clammed up when her body was "discovered."

I don't mind reading about IDI theories and some of them give good reasons to think on the other side of the fence but there are two sides to the fence. Bungling police investigation didn't help the investigation but that is not why it didn't make it to trial, imo.