The "set up' questions

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(bbm)
Imo, the police did exactly what they were told by the powers that be; they were given orders to treat the Ramseys as victims, not suspects (straight from the DA's office). The responding officers were investigating a kidnapping, not a homicide. Officers are humans and make mistakes, just like I do and everyone else does. The DA also tied the hands of the investigators by refusing to authorize warrants. The Ramseys failed to cooperate even with independent attorneys at their sides; they refused to speak with police for four months. Innocent parents intent on finding their child's killer don't do that. They may have answered questions when officers arrived but they were questions concerning a kidnapping, not a homicide. The Ramseys clammed up when her body was "discovered."

I don't mind reading about IDI theories and some of them give good reasons to think on the other side of the fence but there are two sides to the fence. Bungling police investigation didn't help the investigation but that is not why it didn't make it to trial, imo.
I couldn't agree more with everything you said, BOESP. As we go on, we still continue to learn more and find things we may have missed before (or forgotten, in my case).

About the above bolded... I have several times in the past disparaged Dr. Meyer over the fact that he had (by his own notes) spent something like a half hour outside the Ramsey hellhole before going in, and then only ten minutes examining JonBenet's body before leaving. While there is still much I think he should have done that he didn't, and other things that he obviously botched, I need to take back any comments I may have made in the past about him spending more time outside "shooting the breeze" with officers than he did with a homicide victim. Meyer was not allowed inside the house because he was told he couldn't examine the body until a search warrant was signed by a judge (this from the DA's office). This is what Dr. Frederick Zugibe had to say about that in his book Dissecting Death: Secrets of a Medical Examiner:
Coroners and medical examiners have the legal authority to enter a crime scene at any time without a warrant, and that, in fact, it is the essence of their job to take over the body and the scene as quickly as possible, and to oversee the investigation until the corpse is removed from the premises. To bar a coroner from a murder site is not only an outlandish breach of protocol, it is illegal.
But after Dr. Meyer left the scene, another medical examiner continued to process the body and the crime scene. Even then, many of the things that should have been done were not -- most importantly, measurements which would have narrowed down the TOD much better (internal body temp, vitreous humor sample, times taken, state of rigor and phase). From the Bonita Papers:
Boulder County Coroner, Dr. John Meyer, was the first to enter the residence after the search warrant was signed by Judge Diane MacDonald in the early evening hours of December 26. Dr. Meyer placed protective booties over his shoes and surgical gloves on his hands to prevent any further contamination of the crime scene. The only investigative duties of Dr. Meyer was to pronounce the death of the Little Miss Colorado and examine the remains to aid in solving this crime. Dr. Meyer observed ligature marks on her neck and petechial hemorrhages to her eyes both signs of death by strangulation. The coroner then left as Patricia Dunn, the Medical Examiner, would continue with the on scene examination of the body.
 
Blue Bottle, I have had some psychiatric training but not near the level you have.

Please tell me if I have this correct:
PR was having a psychotic episode (A loss of contact with reality) during which she dissociated. (An altered state of consciousness that happened during a traumatic event.)

During this time she was able to disconnect from herself or depersonalize herself from strangling JB or doing what all she did. And then had disossociative amnesia??

I thought this was a good article that explained it in more layman's terms. http://www.jaapl.org/content/35/4/469.full

If this isn't correct, which it probably isn't, please explain it to me in a way I might be able to understand it.
Thank you

I think Patsy had Borderline Personality Disorder due to being raised by a pathologically narcissistic mother. The psychosis was ongoing to various depths, my guess is it started before JonBenet was born. I also guess that she was dissociative in adolescence. That pattern accelerated in the months before Christmas '96. That deadline/threshold was the pressure point. The dissociation that night was episodic not the psychosis

To understand what Patsy did you have to remove JonBenet from the equation. JonBenet was an object. Patsy had been doing things to the object for some time to participate with what was going on in her mind.

Everything that Patsy did to JonBenet that night she was attempting to do to herself by proxy. After accomplishing the task within one set of persona parameters (introverted) she retreated to her social persona (extroverted) so that it could proceed to the next stage of life leading to death.

The odd thing is she did not have to depersonalize as you suggest.

MOO.

For years when I suspected the mother of JB responisble for her death, I had to place PR into a psychosis for it to fit for me. I still believe there is much evidence to support the theory.

If PR turned her daughter into an angel, it fits with her request to have angels hanging from the dogwood tree nearby JonBenet's grave.

The theory of PRs unstable mental health may appear far flung for some. PR was capable of repressing the memory of the killing via amnesia. If you are a PDI, the data provided at the link may prove valuable to understanding her psyche'.

http://jaapl.org/content/35/4/469.full

Repressed memory with amnesia
And, the set-up is directly from a scene in the book The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie where she writes about happiness to be pineapple chunks with sweet creme. The set-up on the Rs table that PR declared she'd never do just happens to come from that special scene in the book. And what kind of intruder would bring their own box of tissues? PR claimed she did not purchase the style of Kleenex tissue that is on her table near the set-up. PR preferred the square boutique box of tissues.
 
I'll have to read this whole thread tonight before bed. Some good stuff here.


I still believe there is much evidence to support the theory.
I think so too. Where I veer away from the common PDI rage theories is I believe prescription drugs(and maybe alcohol) was throwing kerosene on to her fire.

Someone who already has some issues does nothing but magnify them when they start using drugs, even if there was a legitimate trigger for the drug use(her cancer).
 
Yes, he was only 9 and I give him a lot of leeway because of his age, but I think he was telling the truth here. This night turned out to be the most terrible night of his life, so his details were probably pretty clear. Also, according to Kolar, BR said they went straight home, no stops. I believe this too. IMO, he told the truth because he wasn't aware he was supposed to lie. And that's where him being only 9 comes into account. It's hard for a kid to know without being told, when to lie, so they tell the truth. He could have said he didn't remember, but he was only 9 and didn't know any better. moo
I have never seen this posted anywhere before that BR said there were no stops on the way home. The R's said that they left the Whites to deliver gift baskets to the Stines, Walkers and Fernies, but skipped one because it was too late and too far. Mrs. Stine related that they did stop by and all the R's were awake and happy. Does anyone know if this poster is simply incorrect, or does Kolar relate this information from BR that contradicts PR, JR and Mrs. Stine? Perhaps Kolar said it on a show or interview? Thank you for any clarification.
 
Yes, he was only 9 and I give him a lot of leeway because of his age, but I think he was telling the truth here. This night turned out to be the most terrible night of his life, so his details were probably pretty clear. Also, according to Kolar, BR said they went straight home, no stops. I believe this too. IMO, he told the truth because he wasn't aware he was supposed to lie. And that's where him being only 9 comes into account. It's hard for a kid to know without being told, when to lie, so they tell the truth. He could have said he didn't remember, but he was only 9 and didn't know any better. moo
Also, according to Kolar, BR said they went straight home, no stops. I believe this too.

I have never seen this posted anywhere before that BR said there were no stops on the way home. The R's said that they left the Whites to deliver gift baskets to the Stines, Walkers and Fernies, but skipped one because it was too late and too far. Mrs. Stine related that they did stop by and all the R's were awake and happy. Does anyone know if this poster is simply incorrect, or does Kolar relate this information from BR that contradicts PR, JR and Mrs. Stine? Perhaps Kolar said it on a show or interview? Thank you for any clarification.

Nothing surprises me about that night that is filled with lies by the Rs. This link leads to Kolar's Reddit AMA from 2 years ago.

https://www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedMysteries/comments/30nfvc/hi_im_chief_marshall_james_kolar_ama/
 
Also, according to Kolar, BR said they went straight home, no stops. I believe this too.

He also said that the last time he saw Jonbenet, she was walking upstairs with Patsy. I believe him.

That also went against the grain of official Ramsey spin.
 
For years when I suspected the mother of JB responisble for her death, I had to place PR into a psychosis for it to fit for me. I still believe there is much evidence to support the theory.

If PR turned her daughter into an angel, it fits with her request to have angels hanging from the dogwood tree nearby JonBenet's grave.

The theory of PRs unstable mental health may appear far flung for some. PR was capable of repressing the memory of the killing via amnesia. If you are a PDI, the data provided at the link may prove valuable to understanding her psyche'.

http://jaapl.org/content/35/4/469.full

Repressed memory with amnesia
And, the set-up is directly from a scene in the book The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie where she writes about happiness to be pineapple chunks with sweet creme. The set-up on the Rs table that PR declared she'd never do just happens to come from that special scene in the book. And what kind of intruder would bring their own box of tissues? PR claimed she did not purchase the style of Kleenex tissue that is on her table near the set-up. PR preferred the square boutique box of tissues.

DeDee,
Me make it all up? Don't go there pal.

.
 
Nothing surprises me about that night that is filled with lies by the Rs. This link leads to Kolar's Reddit AMA from 2 years ago.

https://www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedMysteries/comments/30nfvc/hi_im_chief_marshall_james_kolar_ama/

Thanks! Scanning that.

Thanks again! I did not find it there in your link, but in Kolar's book pages 346-347:

"[Detective] Patterson was able to elicit some details about events leading up to the kidnapping and was informed that Burke had played at home until around 1630 - 1700 hours on Christmas day and had put on a sweater before heading to the White dinner party.

He played and ate some sandwiches while there and stated that the family went directly home after the party. This conflicted with statements offered by the parents who reported that they had made two stops on the way home to deliver Christmas presents to family friends.

Burke stated that he put on his P.J's., brushed his teeth, and went to bed upon arriving home. He estimated this time frame to have been between 2030 and 2100 hours.
"

I remember also that BR said that JBR walked slowly into the house. I keep wondering why the slowly was so relevant to him that he should mention it.
 
^ Thank you for this SandyQLS. This is very interesting!
Do we know if Walkers or Stine’s confirmed the visits one way or the other?
I think I also read somewhere that BR said JBR was carrying gifts into the house .....
And we all know that BR went back downstairs later at some point....
 
and stated that the family went directly home after the party. This conflicted with statements offered by the parents who reported that they had made two stops on the way home to deliver Christmas presents to family friends.
So once again Burke went against the official Ramsey spin....even though simply parroting their statements would've helped him...especially if he had any involvement.

Burke tried giving peaks behind the curtain. Nobody listened.
 
singularity,

Initially, all three residents had versions of events that differed at particular points in their telling, e.g. JR reading to JonBenet, Patsy saying JonBenet was dressed in a turtleneck top, and Burke saying JonBenet walked into the house.

These seem to me , to be personal interpretations of how normal events should fit into the R's timeline, except that they collide with the R's eventual standard version of events.

My takeaway is that Burke has his own version of events, one which is mainly fictional as he never told his parents everything that took place!

.
 
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]One of the problems in the Ramsey case(there are more than a few), are the crime scene photos. Certain photos are etched into our minds as how things were on the morning of the 26th inside the Ramsey home. However, there are quite a few discrepancies between the "kidnapping phase" photos and the subsequent photos that were taken after JonBenét was discovered. Case in point is, the "set-up". The following photo is from the morning of the 26th, during the kidnapping phase. What we see is a large "juice container" that was part of the original "set-up" in the early morning. Hence, this photo really should be the real "set-up", as we know it.
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[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]One of the problems in the Ramsey case(there are more than a few), are the crime scene photos. Certain photos are etched into our minds as how things were on the morning of the 26th inside the Ramsey home. However, there are quite a few discrepancies between the "kidnapping phase" photos and the subsequent photos that were taken after JonBenét was discovered. Case in point is, the "set-up". The following photo is from the morning of the 26th, during the kidnapping phase. What we see is a large "juice container" that was part of the original "set-up" in the early morning. Hence, this photo really should be the real "set-up", as we know it.[/FONT][/FONT]
Does anyone else realize the implications to be drawn from this CS photo probably taken earlier in the morning before things were tampered with and moved around?
 
He also said that the last time he saw Jonbenet, she was walking upstairs with Patsy. I believe him.


That also went against the grain of official Ramsey spin.



So once again Burke went against the official Ramsey spin....even though simply parroting their statements would've helped him...especially if he had any involvement.

Burke tried giving peaks behind the curtain. Nobody listened.
The problem with believing everything Burke says means you almost have to assume, based on his statements, his parents are liars but not actually guilty of murder. Burke places himself downstairs around the the most likely time of JonBenèt's murder, mom and dad are up in their bedroom according to Burke. He also has JonBenèt either in bed or with him, not with either John or Patsy. He has never given an exact time he went back to bed so we have no idea when that was. Also, Burke's version of events has had slight variations over the years too. Because they tend to be ones that cause more holes in the Ramsey spin, we seem to want to accept them BUT that doesn't mean he is telling the exact truth either. Remember, you can't have it both ways. He was a nine year old, almost ten, boy. They are not mature and have been known to lie and exaggerate the truth and even just plain make up stories for the fun of it.
 
Does anyone else realize the implications to be drawn from this CS photo probably taken earlier in the morning before things were tampered with and moved around?
what exactly are you referring to?
 
Does anyone else realize the implications to be drawn from this CS photo probably taken earlier in the morning before things were tampered with and moved around?

otg,
Nope, not really. How about the photographs released later were all intended to match the prevailing version of events?

It would be nice to see the photos side by side with timestamps added so we can observe the evolution of any re-arranging by the R's, later blamed on the helpers?

One thing I'm certain about is it never started in the breakfast bar, it looks pristine and domestic, contrast this with JonBenet's bedroom!

.
 
The problem with believing everything Burke says means you almost have to assume, based on his statements, his parents are liars but not actually guilty of murder. Burke places himself downstairs around the the most likely time of JonBenèt's murder, mom and dad are up in their bedroom according to Burke. He also has JonBenèt either in bed or with him, not with either John or Patsy. He has never given an exact time he went back to bed so we have no idea when that was. Also, Burke's version of events has had slight variations over the years too. Because they tend to be ones that cause more holes in the Ramsey spin, we seem to want to accept them BUT that doesn't mean he is telling the exact truth either. Remember, you can't have it both ways. He was a nine year old, almost ten, boy. They are not mature and have been known to lie and exaggerate the truth and even just plain make up stories for the fun of it.


Jolamom,
There is likely forensic evidence linking BR to JonBenet that has not been made public otherwise there is no reason for JR to say he left the flashlight in BR's room or for BR to say he went back downstairs about the same time period JonBenet was allegedly abducted and killed?

Another theory might be that both JR and BR know beyond doubt that the case is PDI, yet they want the media show to keep rolling so they keep inventing some new stuff around each anniversary date?

JR thought by getting BR to do Dr Phil they could counteract the CBS Documentary, since they knew what was going to be broadcast, i.e. they had seen previews, so ahead of broadcast they never really knew what CBS would publish, but they knew some of the allegations were backed up by forensics, hence JR and BR tweaking their story, just in case it all went public?

In the event an episode was dropped and some scenes were edited out of the other episodes to avoid litigation, which left BR's Dr Phil appearance looking disjointed.

.
 
*snip*One thing I'm certain about is it never started in the breakfast bar, it looks pristine and domestic, contrast this with JonBenet's bedroom!

.

Are you saying that it's absolutely, positively 100% impossible for a 6 year-old's bedroom to be messy, yes or no?
 

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