The "set up' questions

[BoldBear]

True, but then, she wouldn't necessarily be "papoose"-like.

'Wrapped up like a papoose' is not a definitive term for measurement; it's description. We do not know John Ramesy's definition of the phrase. Was her entire body wrapped that way or was he referring to the torso down? I haven't read any interviews where John was asked to specifically define his meaning. Of course her arms were in full rigor and couldn't be moved.

 

[UKGuy]

'Wrapped up like a papoose' is not a definitive term for measurement; it's description. We do not know John Ramesy's definition of the phrase. Was her entire body wrapped that way or was he referring to the torso down? I haven't read any interviews where John was asked to specifically define his meaning. Of course her arms were in full rigor and couldn't be moved.

BoldBear.
I take papoose wrapped to be distinct from say swadling wrapped, e.g. like a sari. So papoose wrapped would mean just the torso.

I'm assuming Fleet White confirmed this in his observation when JonBenet was found as he cites touching her cold feet?

.

 

[Userid]

'Wrapped up like a papoose' is not a definitive term for measurement; it's description. We do not know John Ramesy's definition of the phrase. Was her entire body wrapped that way or was he referring to the torso down? I haven't read any interviews where John was asked to specifically define his meaning. Of course her arms were in full rigor and couldn't be moved.

I understand that, but "papoose" is an extremely specific description. What's the first thing you think of when you think of "papoose"? For me, it's the face sticking out of an entirely wrapped body from head to toe -- that's literally the defining characteristic. If only her torso was simply wrapped in a blanket, she wouldn't be papoose-like; far from it, in my view, even if her lower body was tightly wrapped -- as that is the traditional way to use a blanket (from the torso down).

 

[archieil]

I see this more like a cheap burial alike wrapping her.

Bad there is no picture of the body in the wine cellar.

For the unplanned murder, it could be a mix of many reasons. I am using handful possibilities.

 

[UKGuy]

I understand that, but "papoose" is an extremely specific description. What's the first thing you think of when you think of "papoose"? For me, it's the face sticking out of an entirely wrapped body from head to toe -- that's literally the defining characteristic. If only her torso was simply wrapped in a blanket, she wouldn't be papoose-like; far from it, in my view, even if her lower body was tightly wrapped -- as that is the traditional way to use a blanket (from the torso down).

Userid,
OK, if we go with your definition, what do we learn?

What I'm thinking is: why would an intruder bother with a blanket anyway? So if the blanket was wrapped in a maternal manner then maybe this is an example of unconcious undoing, else it might JR moving JonBenet's body and wanting to minimize any forensic transfer?

 

[EtherealMoonRose]

Userid,
OK, if we go with your definition, what do we learn?

What I'm thinking is: why would an intruder bother with a blanket anyway? So if the blanket was wrapped in a maternal manner then maybe this is an example of unconcious undoing, else it might JR moving JonBenet's body and wanting to minimize any forensic transfer?

Or even stranger, why would an intruder know there was a blanket in the dryer?

 

[UKGuy]

Or even stranger, why would an intruder know there was a blanket in the dryer?

EtherealMoonRose,
Exactly, so if you are Patsy and fabricating a crime-scene location to match your novelistic ransom note, why fall down on the detail regarding the blanket?

Did Patsy overlook the blanket as she overlooked the size-12's?

I'm thinking someone used the blanket as a psychlogical barrier. because he/she had to place JonBenet into the wine-cellar?

.

 

[EtherealMoonRose]

EtherealMoonRose,
Exactly, so if you are Patsy and fabricating a crime-scene location to match your novelistic ransom note, why fall down on the detail regarding the blanket?

Did Patsy overlook the blanket as she overlooked the size-12's?

I'm thinking someone used the blanket as a psychlogical barrier. because he/she had to place JonBenet into the wine-cellar?

.

Totally agree... And to keep JB 'warm' in her favourite blanket.

 

[archieil]

Totally agree... And to keep JB 'warm' in her favourite blanket.

I know a picture of her favorite blanket and that it was in the laundry.

I wonder how it teleported into such "statement".

 

[EtherealMoonRose]

I know a picture of her favorite blanket and that it was in the laundry.

I wonder how it teleported into such "statement".

Isn't it common knowledge that she was wrapped in her favourite blanket? Do you have a link to the picture?

 

[archieil]

Isn't it common knowledge that she was wrapped in her favourite blanket? Do you have a link to the picture?

I do not have picture of the laundry by my hand.

It was white blanket. If you think some kid has favorite white blanket... it looks not good.

 

[EtherealMoonRose]

I do not have picture of the laundry by my hand.

It was white blanket. If you think some kid has favorite white blanket... it looks not good.

I don't understand what you are saying.

I'm just basing my opinions on what I've read about said blanket.

 

[887sMtreme]

i think we make too much of the “papoose” reference. As I recall, JR did’t use the term. It was suggested to him by an interviewer and he accepted it without any great reflection. He probably didn’t have more than a vague idea what it meant.

To be pedantic here for a second, it’s actually not correct to call a snugly wrapped infant a papoose. A papoose is actually the carrier to which the wrapped infant would be laced, allowing it to be carried around on it’s mother’s back on journeys or while working.

But if we accept the common usage, it’s safe to say that when JR “found” JBR, she could not have been wrapped as infants typically were when carried in a papoose. Her arms were over her head, stiff from rigor mortis. Again, let’s not get hung up on the papoose comment.

 

[UKGuy]

i think we make too much of the “papoose” reference. As I recall, JR did’t use the term. It was suggested to him by an interviewer and he accepted it without any great reflection. He probably didn’t have more than a vague idea what it meant.

To be pedantic here for a second, it’s actually not correct to call a snugly wrapped infant a papoose. A papoose is actually the carrier to which the wrapped infant would be laced, allowing it to be carried around on it’s mother’s back on journeys or while working.

But if we accept the common usage, it’s safe to say that when JR “found” JBR, she could not have been wrapped as infants typically were when carried in a papoose. Her arms were over her head, stiff from rigor mortis. Again, let’s not get hung up on the papoose comment.

887sMtreme,
Since its a quiet weekend and I'm snowed in. I did some off the cuff research, so here is the relevant part of JR's interview:

1998 BPD John Ramsey Interview, Excerpt

19 JOHN RAMSEY: I'd say, I mean, the door was

20 kind of stuck anyway, so it wasn't common to latch

21 it.

22 MIKE KANE: Did that latch, and I've seen

23 pictures of it, it was on like a pivot?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: It was on a block of wood.

25 MIKE KANE: A block of wood, but it was

0182

1 pivoted?

2 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

3 MIKE KANE: Was it enough that it would fall

4 down on its own or did you have to physically turn

5 it?

6 JOHN RAMSEY: I think you had to physically

7 turn it.

8 MIKE KANE: All right. Okay. Now, when you

9 went inside to that room, you described the

10 blanket. And you said it was folded like -- I'm

11 just trying to get a mental picture of it. Was it

12 like --

13 JOHN RAMSEY: It was like an Indian papoose.

14 MIKE KANE: Okay.

15 JOHN RAMSEY: You know, the blanket was under

16 her completely. It was brought up and folded over like that.

17

18

19 MIKE KANE: Folded over, okay.

20 JOHN RAMSEY: It looked like, at that time

21 I didn't know the extent of the injuries, but it

22 looked like somebody had just put her there

23 comfortably, but tied up with her mouth gagged.

24 MIKE KANE: And John, I really understand

25 how difficult this is. Do you remember, was her

0183

1 head exposed? Were her feet exposed?

2 JOHN RAMSEY: Possibly.

3 MIKE KANE: But not the rest of her?

4 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean, yeah, I think her

5 feet were exposed. But her head was. Her head was

6 tilted to one side. I was trying to hold her head.

7 MIKE KANE: I'm not really clear (INAUDIBLE)

8 you said that they were tied tight. But were her

9 hands tied closely together or were they wide

10 apart?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it was like that.

12 MIKE KANE: There were crossed like that.

13 JOHN RAMSEY: I remember, yeah, her hands

14 were close together.

15 MIKE KANE: And you tried to untie one of

16 them? Were you successful?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Partly. I mean, I sort of

18 started to get them untied, but I guess I was

19 starting to realize that that would do any good.

20 MIKE KANE: And so at that point then, was

21 it then you just took her right upstairs?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: I just picked her up and ran

23 screaming upstairs.

24 MIKE KANE: Okay. And was the blanket still

25 there?

0184

1 JOHN RAMSEY: No.

2 MIKE KANE: Cause you took her out of the

3 blanket and picked her up?

4 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

It appears JR offered papoose unprompted, but goes with the feet exposed prompt, yet from memory Fleet White said he touched JonBenet's foot, which felt cold, i.e. corroborating JR's version?

I agree with your definition of papoose, but it is a loose term, a loan word, e.g. from the Algonquian papoos, meaning "child" and used in english to refer to a child carrier

JR was quite specific as to how JonBenet was wrapped in the blanket, i.e. to me he never meant swaddled or wrapped all over, but with JonBenet's head and feet exposed.

Its not a red flag as such so other than JR's detailed grasp of how JonBenet was wrapped in the blanket, maybe we do make too much the term?

Unless of course it was JR who wrapped and moved JR into the wine-cellar?

.

 

[otg]

I know a picture of her favorite blanket and that it was in the laundry.

I wonder how it teleported into such "statement".

If you can't back that up with a link or a valid photo, your post is simply false and unhelpful.

 

[archieil]

If you can't back that up with a link or a valid photo, your post is simply false and unhelpful.

I am not storing such pictures.
google search gives no proper result of laundry.

You can skip my words about her fav in the laundry.

She was not wrapped in her fav white blanket.

 

[887sMtreme]

Thanks for that find, UKGuy. I’m pretty sure I recently read an interview in which the interviewer prompted JR and he said, “Yeah, papoose,”or something close to that. A repeat interview? Oh well. *sigh*

 

[Userid]

I don't mean to get hung up on the term "papoose," but it's just curious to me; that's all. Besides, this place isn't as busy with chatter lately anyways.

I think JR was either speaking loosely or he was outright lying. If she was really "wrapped," even from the waist down, he would have had to really work to unwrap her body. It would be nice if FW could corroborate, as he would have had to see this unwrapping first hand.

 

[UKGuy]

I don't mean to get hung up on the term "papoose," but it's just curious to me; that's all. Besides, this place isn't as busy with chatter lately anyways.

I think JR was either speaking loosely or he was outright lying. If she was really "wrapped," even from the waist down, he would have had to really work to unwrap her body. It would be nice if FW could corroborate, as he would have had to see this unwrapping first hand.

Userid,
I'd love to hear FW's version of events. It must differ as he has never made it public, probably on legal advice. Yet if JR is lying about the blanket then FW can call him out, since he was there and claimed to touch JonBenet.

I'll bet FW thinks JR moved JonBenet's body later that morning? He said he actually looked in the wine-cellar and never saw JonBenet. Never mind the smell of urine or that of a dead body.

JR takes one look and its Bingo, FW takes a look and sees nothing how come?

Maybe JR wants it to be known he removed the blanket, so explaining any forensic traces, does not change the outcome a great deal other than to put JDI on the table?

.

 

[AndHence]

JR's observation that the perpetrator must not have meant to kill JonBenet because he wrapped her in a blanket has always struck me as a red flag. You just found your daughter in full rigor mortis, garroted, mouth taped, and hidden in a dark basement of your house. Is your first rational thought really that the killer must not have meant to kill her?

The statement is a forgiving, almost undoing statement, absolving the perpetrator of any real blame. It's also consistent with John's later remark on CNN that the family wasn't angry and just wanted to know 'why' JonBenet died. Again, another forgiving/undoing statement. Such quick forgiveness is only possible if you know who is responsible (a member of the family) and you believe it to be an accident. If John really believed the perp was a business associate or random intruder, I doubt he'd be so forgiving just minutes after finding his little daughter dead in their house.