The Strawberry birthmark and other things about Kyron

[debs]

I didn't interpret it as complaining - Desiree was giving an example of why she thought Terri wasn't in shock like the rest of them. Giving examples of prior dishonesty and explaining some of the behaviors they witnessed that led them to believe Terri is responsible. Would it have been better if they simply said they think she's responsible...just because? I am glad they gave examples that can lend insight into her behavior as compared with the rest of the family. I think it's important.

Is it possible that they are all lying and throwing Terri under the bus? I suppose it's possible, but why on earth would they do that if they didn't have real and concrete reasons to support that? Makes no sense to me, but that's what's so great about a forum like WS - it allows everyone to come and share opinions and perspectives and compare notes. At the end of the day, Kyron's family, LE, as well as the participants here and the general public only want one thing - for Kyron to be found and the responsible party prosecuted. We all share the same goal.

I suggest these anecdotes ARE just because. Then Desiree attaches a reason to be able to say all the hateful things she's felt over the years. It just so happens that reason has a validity in that there is a child missing, Terri was one of the last persons to see Kyron (according to LE, the last person, but I have to include all the other witnesses who say they saw him after the time LE gave us). It's a stressful time. Maybe it's Desiree's way of 'ugly coping' to discuss all the odd things that Terri did in the first days.

What I find interesting is that it seems Desiree is bent on making it all about Terri. Terri has remained silent since being systematically isolated from those people who suggest she wasn't a part of their grief process. Seems to me that having someone feel so antagonistic about her for thinking about her hair would make anyone crawl into themselves and just STFU for the duration, because everything she says is going to be picked over to get to just this place anyway.

 

[gardeness]

I think, in cases like this, any public showing of levity will be perceived by the general public as inappropriate. DY's quote saying that when Kyron returns, she's never letting him leave the house again (paraphrasing). Many people think that was totally strange, but that can also be perceived as a moment of levity - a halfhearted attempt at humor. Darlie Routier's silly string, the video clip of the Ramsey's laughing at something one of the LE officers or detectives said, Ronald and Misty's wedding, etc. They have all been equally criticized for what we perceive as inappropriate, and Terri's no different.

Yes, we have seen that happen, and it reflects negatively on the "public" IMO. I think there is one difference here, though--Terri hasn't shown any levity in public. These are behind-the-scenes accusations...

 

[Snowball58]

I think you're being naive, Debs. Why has Kaine turned on Terri, then? He's her husband and should be standing by her. It may be explainable that DY has had years of hostility and problems with Terri and could be reading too much into some of her behaviors, but do you really think they would be accusing her if they didn't really believe her to be responsible, given everything they know from LE as well (which we're not privy to)? They have destroyed her. Isn't it more likely this is part of a strategy, in collaboration with LE, to try and get to the truth?

As a mom, if my daughter went missing, I would put every ounce of my being into finding her and finding the person responsible. I wouldn't use the tragedy as a venue to air my grievances with my ex's wife and point the finger at her just because I don't like her. I would want the actual person responsible to be found - I wouldn't latch on to Terri because she's convenient. It's about justice for Kyron. DY, KH and TY are intelligent and rational people - their position appears to be supported by the actions of LE investigating this case. It's naive to think that the only reason they are pointing to Terri is because she took him to school that day and they never really liked her that much anyway. That makes no sense. They would be wasting precious time.

 

[Snowball58]

Yes, we have seen that happen, and it reflects negatively on the "public" IMO. I think there is one difference here, though--Terri hasn't shown any levity in public. These are behind-the-scenes accusations...

Well, Terri hasn't really shown herself in public at all. We have the press conference, where she didn't speak, with the really creepy body language (IMO). We have one interview of small talk about her lawn. We have the brief "thumbs-up" moment. With the rest of the family we have many communications, letters and interviews.

I am in the camp that Terri's silence speaks volumes and lowers my opinion of her with every day that goes by.

I have a question. Point blank, for those who believe DY and the rest of the family are either lying about Terri's actions, or exaggerating. Why would they do that? What is your theory about what happened to Kyron?

 

[gardeness]

I think you're being naive, Debs. Why has Kaine turned on Terri, then? He's her husband and should be standing by her. It may be explainable that DY has had years of hostility and problems with Terri and could be reading too much into some of her behaviors, but do you really think they would be accusing her if they didn't really believe her to be responsible, given everything they know from LE as well (which we're not privy to)? They have destroyed her. Isn't it more likely this is part of a strategy, in collaboration with LE, to try and get to the truth?

As a mom, if my daughter went missing, I would put every ounce of my being into finding her and finding the person responsible. I wouldn't use the tragedy as a venue to air my grievances with my ex's wife and point the finger at her just because I don't like her. I would want the actual person responsible to be found - I wouldn't latch on to Terri because she's convenient. It's about justice for Kyron. DY, KH and TY are intelligent and rational people - their position appears to be supported by the actions of LE investigating this case. It's naive to think that the only reason they are pointing to Terri is because she took him to school that day and they never really liked her that much anyway. That makes no sense. They would be wasting precious time.

bbm

I truly don't think anyone thinks it's that simple~there is a significant lack of proof right now that, in a strange and round-about way, makes one wonder if the "odd" issues about Terri mistakenly reinforce preconceived ideas about Terri (and, vice versa). It could be a warped cycle of thinking...

What is frustrating, and what is bringing doubt about Terri's involvement, is that LE is not showing support for KH and DY's actions--they have made their disclaimers (most recently, right after their last PC).

 

[debs]

I am a reasoned and logical person, and hardly ever operate out of a naive belief in human nature. What I do know is that we do not have enough to light the wood under Terri, much less stake her on the pole. I am seeing a villager reaction with torches and pitchforks and wonder when the tarring and feathering will take place, all based on what the public is being told by two people.

I don't question at all that Desiree and Kaine feel Terri is responsible, and in truth, I can't pull her out of the pool of people I'd point to, either. But they aren't simply relaying what they observed, they're applying motive to it. "Terri talked about her hair" turned into "She made it all about herself." "Terri said something about bees" turned into "She couldn't even tell that story truthfully." I ask "HOW DO WE KNOW THE TRUTH?" because we're getting a very one-sided and a biased point of view.

Terri isolated herself, because Terri was being isolated. I've read it over and over on other threads how people read the body language in the early days videos and see Desiree physically pulling away, and I'm amazed that no one can see that if she's able to do that in public while supposedly presenting a united front, how easily it is to see that she would have been less likely to hide it and make it even more obvious her disdain for Terri in private. How does anyone cope with that but to finally just revert into themselves and say nothing?

And that is the problem with a lot of people: Terri says nothing and so the stories fly. But I'm not willing to use someone else's words against another person. I prefer to reason through what's said myself. And right now, when Desiree is the one talking, I'll evaluate what I can from HER words, regardless of how much she wants to make them about Terri and how horrible she thinks she is.

 

[wondering1]

Seems to me that having someone feel so antagonistic about her for thinking about her hair would make anyone crawl into themselves and just STFU for the duration, because everything she says is going to be picked over to get to just this place anyway.

Or make her just stfu about her hair and talk about Kyron, etc.? If I were DY and truly believed that TH was responsible for my son's disappearance or worse, I would want to yank her hair right out of her head if she started talking about it in my presence. I think DY has shown incredible restraint under the circumstances. jmoo

 

[gardeness]

Well, Terri hasn't really shown herself in public at all. We have the press conference, where she didn't speak, with the really creepy body language (IMO). We have one interview of small talk about her lawn. We have the brief "thumbs-up" moment. With the rest of the family we have many communications, letters and interviews.

I am in the camp that Terri's silence speaks volumes and lowers my opinion of her with every day that goes by.

I have a question. Point blank, for those who believe DY and the rest of the family are either lying about Terri's actions, or exaggerating. Why would they do that? What is your theory about what happened to Kyron?

bbm

What I think is that DY is using past judgments to condemn her now. The error could be that a liar is not always a kidnapper/murderer... I do think both bio parents are desperate to find their son and find the culprit. I would love to know if LE was truly investigating other leads besides Terri while KH and DY made their PCs...

 

[gardeness]

Or make her just stfu about her hair and talk about Kyron, etc.? If I were DY and truly believed that TH was responsible for my son's disappearance or worse, I would want to yank her hair right out of her head if she started talking about it in my presence. I think DY has shown incredible restraint under the circumstances. jmoo

This is what I wonder...does anyone really think that Desiree did not talk about anything except Kryon? I just find that hard to believe.

 

[nonfictionrocks]

I am a reasoned and logical person, and hardly ever operate out of a naive belief in human nature. What I do know is that we do not have enough to light the wood under Terri, much less stake her on the pole. I am seeing a villager reaction with torches and pitchforks and wonder when the tarring and feathering will take place, all based on what the public is being told by two people.

I don't question at all that Desiree and Kaine feel Terri is responsible, and in truth, I can't pull her out of the pool of people I'd point to, either. But they aren't simply relaying what they observed, they're applying motive to it. "Terri talked about her hair" turned into "She made it all about herself." "Terri said something about bees" turned into "She couldn't even tell that story truthfully." I ask "HOW DO WE KNOW THE TRUTH?" because we're getting a very one-sided and a biased point of view.

Terri isolated herself, because Terri was being isolated. I've read it over and over on other threads how people read the body language in the early days videos and see Desiree physically pulling away, and I'm amazed that no one can see that if she's able to do that in public while supposedly presenting a united front, how easily it is to see that she would have been less likely to hide it and make it even more obvious her disdain for Terri in private. How does anyone cope with that but to finally just revert into themselves and say nothing?

And that is the problem with a lot of people: Terri says nothing and so the stories fly. But I'm not willing to use someone else's words against another person. I prefer to reason through what's said myself. And right now, when Desiree is the one talking, I'll evaluate what I can from HER words, regardless of how much she wants to make them about Terri and how horrible she thinks she is.

Nicely worded Debs! ITA

 

[Calliope]

IMO, it isn't clear what day DY is referring to, in talking about Terri and her hair...do people truly exist who are able to focus and speak on one tragedy day after day? I think of death and funerals--even when someone has died, people still talk about other facets of their life, within their grief. There are periods of levity, believe it or not--even inappropriate thoughts and words--when a death occurs. Can the grief over a missing child not be comparable?

I think we'll know if Terri's grief is genuine when there is actual proof to either condemn or clear her...

Good point.

Did Kaine, Desiree or Tony speak of anything besides Kyron, ever? If so (which I believe they must have), should they be criticized as Desiree criticized Terri? Does anyone really believe that none of the other three said anything at all unrelated to Kyron's disappearance?

 

[Aedrys]

bbm

What I think is that DY is using past judgments to condemn her now. The error could be that a liar is not always a kidnapper/murderer... I do think both bio parents are desperate to find their son and find the culprit. I would love to know if LE was truly investigating other leads besides Terri while KH and DY made their PCs...

And yet every murderer I have ever heard of was a liar. No, a liar doesn't make a murderer, but a liar is a significant part of a murderer. After the cases I've followed, I tend to not ignore someone because they are lying. That's usually the first big red flag to me that they are probably involved.

Heck, that's been Cindy's mantra about Casey, that just because she's told so many lies doesn't make her a murderer. Cindy is stuck on that. Casey didn't do it because she never confessed. Yet the evidence is there and points straight at her, and not once has she told the truth. I'm still waiting for some truth, any truth from TH. Don't have any yet.

No, after the people I've dealt with in my life, and after cases like Casey, someone lying puts them at the very TOP of my list. All IMO, of course.

 

[Calliope]

bbm

What I think is that DY is using past judgments to condemn her now. The error could be that a liar is not always a kidnapper/murderer... I do think both bio parents are desperate to find their son and find the culprit. I would love to know if LE was truly investigating other leads besides Terri while KH and DY made their PCs...

Well, don't forget Terri never told the truth in the 7 1/2 years Desiree knew her---even when (apparently) she didn't know her.

 

[wondering1]

This is what I wonder...does anyone really think that Desiree did not talk about anything except Kryon? I just find that hard to believe.

Two points. First, I'd bet a million dollars that a normal mother wouldn't be talking about her bad dye job. DY has given me no reason to believe that these things were on her mind shortly after Kyron went missing.

Second, I'm sure she talked about something other than Kyron -- like food, logistics, how to handle the press, etc. Things essential to functioning under the circumstances. I haven't seen or heard anything at all about DY's inappropriate behavior under the circumstances AND there's no reason to believe she may have been involved. She wasn't in the vicinity when Kyron went missing and passed her LDT. Even if you put no stock in them, passing with an *alibi* is better than failing without one.

TH, on the other hand, has been nothing BUT inappropriate. Even if you don't believe some of it, it's the big picture that makes her appear guilty. Talking about her bad dye job is just one little piece of the big picture, imo. jmoo

 

[RubyRed]

This is what I wonder...does anyone really think that Desiree did not talk about anything except Kryon? I just find that hard to believe.

I am sure she talked of other things. I think DY and KH are taking their cues from LE, and that is why they are more vocal. They know things we don't and just the things we do know are enough to make your head spin.

With Terri having a lawyer now, I doubt we will hear from her. He has probably told her absolutely no talking, texting or commenting on news articles. He basically has put a gag on her.

 

[human]

I think you're being naive, Debs. Why has Kaine turned on Terri, then? He's her husband and should be standing by her. It may be explainable that DY has had years of hostility and problems with Terri and could be reading too much into some of her behaviors, but do you really think they would be accusing her if they didn't really believe her to be responsible, given everything they know from LE as well (which we're not privy to)? They have destroyed her. Isn't it more likely this is part of a strategy, in collaboration with LE, to try and get to the truth?

As a mom, if my daughter went missing, I would put every ounce of my being into finding her and finding the person responsible. I wouldn't use the tragedy as a venue to air my grievances with my ex's wife and point the finger at her just because I don't like her. I would want the actual person responsible to be found - I wouldn't latch on to Terri because she's convenient. It's about justice for Kyron. DY, KH and TY are intelligent and rational people - their position appears to be supported by the actions of LE investigating this case. It's naive to think that the only reason they are pointing to Terri is because she took him to school that day and they never really liked her that much anyway. That makes no sense. They would be wasting precious time.

That is so true! I was thinking that DY's view of TH would be clouding the view of TH.

You are so right. Whatever she thinks, the bottom line is she wants her son.

So to pick TH out as the culprit for no reason except that she doesn't like her would be understandable if it was some other situation. But you are right. It would be ludicrous to assume that DY would want it to be TH if it isn't.

 

[wondering1]

Well, don't forget Terri never told the truth in the 7 1/2 years Desiree knew her---even when (apparently) she didn't know her.

I mentioned before, I took this to mean that TH didn't and still hasn't told the truth about her relationship with Kaine while DY was pregnant with Kyron...one big 7 1/2 year long lie. To me, it's obvious that Kaine and TH were involved before they got divorced and the accounts of TH's friends and Mom indicate that they were told otherwise, and continue to believe otherwise up to the present. Or at least until DY confirmed that she and TH were NOT friends when Kyron was born and Kaine declined to elaborate on exactly how he and TH met other than to say it was through friends. jmoo

 

[Calliope]

And yet every murderer I have ever heard of was a liar. No, a liar doesn't make a murderer, but a liar is a significant part of a murderer. After the cases I've followed, I tend to not ignore someone because they are lying. That's usually the first big red flag to me that they are probably involved.

Heck, that's been Cindy's mantra about Casey, that just because she's told so many lies doesn't make her a murderer. Cindy is stuck on that. Casey didn't do it because she never confessed. Yet the evidence is there and points straight at her, and not once has she told the truth. I'm still waiting for some truth, any truth from TH. Don't have any yet.

No, after the people I've dealt with in my life, and after cases like Casey, someone lying puts them at the very TOP of my list. All IMO, of course.

What has she lied about? Confirmed by LE, not by rumor or unnamed "sources"? What have we actually heard her say, so that we'd even know it was a lie? Or how much of all of this is the three accusing her of lying?

She said everything was ok shortly before being served with the RO. Technically a lie I suppose, unless she was completely clueless that her husband had left her and was in hiding. But probably said to avoid responding, "None of your damn business".

Anything else?

 

[Calliope]

I mentioned before, I took this to mean that TH didn't and still hasn't told the truth about her relationship with Kaine while DY was pregnant with Kyron...one big 7 1/2 year long lie. To me, it's obvious that Kaine and TH were involved before they got divorced and the accounts of TH's friends and Mom indicate that they were told otherwise, and continue to believe otherwise up to the present. Or at least until DY confirmed that she and TH were NOT friends when Kyron was born and Kaine declined to elaborate on exactly how he and TH met other than to say it was through friends. jmoo

"She hasn't told the truth for seven and a half years that I have known her."

That's a pretty global statement.

How old is Kyron, btw?

 

[Susan10]

In the school "show & tell"...I wonder what bridge Kyron is describing.

Now, that would be totally sadistic in my book, but if TH did murder Kyron, maybe she thought she was doing him a favor by taking him there to that bridge...one of his favorite places. Was that bridge on SI?

Reminds me of the Clutters' horrific murders (In Cold Blood, T.Capote). One of the scum recited how he laid down a piece of cardboard for the son to lay on so he'd be more comfortable (it wouldn't be so cold) on the basement floor before he shot him.

Ugly, but that's how murderers convince themselves that they're actually nice people. Disgusting, but true.