Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #4

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Which Listed Below Did Caylee Die From?


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Bond

I have accepted the ADD clock details. 3.01 days decomposing looks to be a good number. I can't see the bagging being done anywhere other than the A's back yard and 18th too early if the 3.01 days is correct? I am stuck. Even contemplating body bagging 20th before running out of gas does not work.
 
I spent the last couple of hours trying to work out 6/19 pings to enable a xfer to the Jeep to stop the ADD clock started @ 7:20PM on 6/16. I couldn't make it work. Sooo...if t.o.d. was >7:20PM...perhaps the Jeep wasn't used in the disposal....

What did work was backing t.o.d. to 3PM 6/16...which is fitting w/ the expired in carseat-but-didn't-discover-until-later timing....then transfering & storing the body temporarily @ the unoccuppied Oviedo property stopping the ADD clock 3-4PM 6/19...then returning to the Oviedo property in the Jeep ~7-8PM and taking it to the disposal site on Suburban Dr.

The latter doesn't explain elevated chloroform in the trunk...and the 6:30PM flurry...and 7PM call to G&C's....unless these were for "We won't be home tonight".

I just haven't come up w/ a thread that pulls through all of the information cleanly.
If the body was transfered stopping the clock, then Caylee had to be driving her car at that time. I don't have some (lots) details at my finger tips. When (what time) did she leave her own car near AL's and start driving his jeep? I don't like including this vacant property business. Again she had to be transfering dead bodies and messing about with garbage bags in day light, and hiding body where it could be discovered, by humans or stray dogs or anything?
I don't like trying to include transfer of the body beyond back and forth to the A's back yard and the final dump. That I can imagine being done in daylight, albeit somewhat paniced. (If that is possible with KC)
 
Making it up as I type, how about.................
Accept Bond's outline up to the proposed TOD. But Caylee does not die then. She survives all that abuse and is left yet again, drugged again? Eventually dies morning of 17th. KC to and from A's 17th, 18th as per other scenarios gets as far as body etc in laundry bag. Perhaps in garbage bag as well, but not sealed. 19th messing about in AL jeep leaving body in the trunk of her car near AL's. Friday morning seals plastic bag (stops ADD clock) and heads off to A's, then dumps body but runs out of gas soon after!! Calls AL to rescue, steals gas cans etc? OR Runs out of gas before dumping body, so does not get as far as dumping body. Dumps body on 24th.
 
Ok, I see points by all three of you, JWG, Bond and HP.

I don't have the mind set to do any of the reference work on it tonight and my weekend is somewhat busy but what if... you lay the week out on a timeline spreadsheet using blocks of time. Like an appointment book for each day. Then take each scenario and start plotting it out. We do know certain things such as when there was computer activity. When know when her phone pinged, when some text messages were sent and to some degree who she spoke to or came in contact with during the week. Start with what we know.
Maybe by doing it that way we could see something that stands out or just plain won’t work with what is known. The ping maps, phone call spreadsheet really worked out well for that exact same reason. You could see where she was or wasn't. This way we may be able to see what she possible did or could not do. At worst we may discover that unless certain things become known we can just not do any better than a few good educated theories.

Respectfully,
Shadow
 
If the body was transfered stopping the clock, then Caylee had to be driving her car at that time. I don't have some (lots) details at my finger tips. When (what time) did she leave her own car near AL's and start driving his jeep? I don't like including this vacant property business. Again she had to be transfering dead bodies and messing about with garbage bags in day light, and hiding body where it could be discovered, by humans or stray dogs or anything?
I don't like trying to include transfer of the body beyond back and forth to the A's back yard and the final dump. That I can imagine being done in daylight, albeit somewhat paniced. (If that is possible with KC)

I kinda understated it above, but, yes....if she went back to get her Pontiac after smoozin' w/ Chris while drivin' Tony's Jeep...then...takes Pontiac to Suburban Dr. w/ phone still off and executes the disposal (having bagged somewhere in-situ ~7:30PM)...that all works w/ >7:20PM t.o.d., ADD=3.01, disposal just prior to 9PM, 6/19.

That's the only scenario that plays all the way through for me, including as many factors as I can (e.g. flurry calls, chloroform, etc.). I do like JWG's extrapolation of the use of cold medicine post-May.

I don't recall which poster commented 'bout surviving in the trunk...but, perhaps I wasn't clear. I'm not suggesting Caylee was put in the trunk any other time than 6/16PM. I am suggesting Casey kept Caylee @ Lee's. IMHO, Lee's not being forthcoming w/ this info maybe the basis for the potential charges being considered against him (i.e. witholding info, etc.). And, as JWG and I discussed earlier on this point, Lee may not necessarily have been aware of every instance when Casey did this...such as when he may have been out of town. We don't know details 'bout Lee's roommate either...but that would hafta factor in too.

And, as another poster pointed out....and I paraphrased...the temperature in the trunk would certainly have aggravated the situation and sped death due to o.d. or coulda been the cause of death...I'm not sure we'll ver know that detail.
 
Ok, I see points by all three of you, JWG, Bond and HP.

I don't have the mind set to do any of the reference work on it tonight and my weekend is somewhat busy but what if... you lay the week out on a timeline spreadsheet using blocks of time. Like an appointment book for each day. Then take each scenario and start plotting it out. We do know certain things such as when there was computer activity. When know when her phone pinged, when some text messages were sent and to some degree who she spoke to or came in contact with during the week. Start with what we know.
Maybe by doing it that way we could see something that stands out or just plain won’t work with what is known. The ping maps, phone call spreadsheet really worked out well for that exact same reason. You could see where she was or wasn't. This way we may be able to see what she possible did or could not do. At worst we may discover that unless certain things become known we can just not do any better than a few good educated theories.

Respectfully,
Shadow
Makes sense.
I haven't worked through the fine details. I am not sure I would do a good job. I am just trying to devise a broad outline or review others outlines. I have seen enough to know JWG and Bond have studied the details, and I would use their data to evaluate anything I put forward. At the moment I don't have a scenario that I am happy with even broadly. I am striving to take bits from whatever source and piece together a hybrid.
 
Ok, I see points by all three of you, JWG, Bond and HP.

I don't have the mind set to do any of the reference work on it tonight and my weekend is somewhat busy but what if... you lay the week out on a timeline spreadsheet using blocks of time. Like an appointment book for each day. Then take each scenario and start plotting it out. We do know certain things such as when there was computer activity. When know when her phone pinged, when some text messages were sent and to some degree who she spoke to or came in contact with during the week. Start with what we know.
Maybe by doing it that way we could see something that stands out or just plain won’t work with what is known. The ping maps, phone call spreadsheet really worked out well for that exact same reason. You could see where she was or wasn't. This way we may be able to see what she possible did or could not do. At worst we may discover that unless certain things become known we can just not do any better than a few good educated theories.

Respectfully,
Shadow

..that's actually a pretty good description of what I've done, Shadow. I'm all good w/ tossin' it around. I hadn't gone through the gymnasitics of Jeep use 'cause I wasn't in the mindset last night after plugging everything else together :)

Personally, I'm kinda reaching the point of diminishing returns w/o any new information that helps the timeline and firms up some of the sketchy info we have on some of the key points (e.g. chloroform...substantiated...or freak coincidences). I just dunno how to nail it down better...I've allowed myself some lattitude w/ options that we've all been discussing. I guess I'll wait for mo'betta info and watch for some new theories to play out.

Appreciate the review/comments/feedback everyone! :blowkiss:
 
i had this thought last night, that clairfies things for me...the accident theory keeps on popping up in my head, but not anymore...the reason is the duct tape...if you put duct tape on someone with the INTENT of eventually taking it off, you would not get the hair caught on the tape! you know eventually (in this case when caylee wakes up) you will have to take the tape off, so you would be careful not to put it on her hair knowing it would hurt when you tried to pull it off....
when caylee's skull was found, the hair had to be cut so the duct tape could be removed, which tells me she had no intention of taking that tape off
this was no accident, and the tape was used as part of a murder weapon!

I disagree...respectfully...although, I do agree that KC placed the tape there without the intention of removal but, for other reasons.

I believe that KC placed the tape there "post-mortem" in a poor attempt to stop the spillage of body fluids, odor, maggots, flies, etc.

The sticker, could have been placed there at the time of disposal as a symbol of her macabre sense of love for Caylee.
 
Also, with the latest tidbits from GA's "8-page" suicide letter...I'd venture to guess based on his comments about "KC's friends"...that my hunches could be correct that KC did not act alone in either the death or disposal of Caylee.

Don't get me wrong...I definitely believe KC is quite capable of committing such a heinous crime but, something has always felt like she did not act alone in one or all of the acts of this crime.
 
Even tho' my beliefs contradict this idea...it is also possible that a duct-taped Cayleee could have awoken in an stifling hot car trunk...began crying, worked herself into a hysteria, vomited and then died from aspirating her own vomit into her lungs.

It would be interesting to know if this type of bodily fluids could have been detected from the duct tape aside from the decomposing fluids that would also have been on that tape.
 
Even tho' my beliefs contradict this idea...it is also possible that a duct-taped Cayleee could have awoken in an stifling hot car trunk...began crying, worked herself into a hysteria, vomited and then died from aspirating her own vomit into her lungs.

It would be interesting to know if this type of bodily fluids could have been detected from the duct tape aside from the decomposing fluids that would also have been on that tape.

It's possible... but I bet we would have heard about vomit stains in the trunk by now. If any trace of such had been washed out of the trunk, there would be traces in her hair. Maybe even on the teeth found.
 
Some of the pieces are still not fitting together for me, particularly use of the jeep and the source of the trash bag.

The jeep

First, why did she borrow the jeep? What reason did she give Tony?

Driving south from Chris S. to dump the body near her parents seems to me like she is kind of going out of the way. She was not down that way all day. Why not dump the body near Chris S.? Lot's of locations there. :confused:

Based on where the body was found, it does not seem that KC would need to back a vehicle into the location to dump the body, but even if she did, she would not need the jeep. Pictures of the curb do not look substantial - the Pontiac should have no trouble backing into there. If someone can find real clear pictures of the curb showing otherwise, please point me to them.

The bag

Bagging the body in the garbage bag on the 19th works from the ADD perspective. Fluids would leak through the laundry bag, but not a garbage bag.

But where did she get the bag? I had personally assumed that if she got it from Tony's, it would be a white kitchen bag. He's single, small apartment, has a nearby dumpster. He is not going to accumulate a ton of garbage each day. I'd be willing to bet he only had the white kitchen bags and had no need for the larger black bags.

So maybe she got the bags from her parents. The search warrant does not say what color the pull handles were, but the forensic narrative does say that a black bag with yellow pull handles was put into evidence back in July, and Yuri checked it out of the evidence room on December 16. So LE is looking for a match.

But KC did not go to her parent's home on the 19th, meaning if the bag came from the home, then she got it on the 16th, 17th, 18th, or 20th.

Why get the bag early if it is not needed? I don't see her planning ahead on this one. But getting the bag on the 20th is too late. I don't see the body farm being off by a full day (30+%) on this one...although anything is possible.

The knife

Another odd little thing that has puzzled me is the source of the kitchen knife. Cindy removed it from the car along with a number of other items. Maybe she washed it, maybe not, but she apparently did not put it in with her dinnerware, because she was able to easily locate it and give it to Det. Beasley along with the other items.

My guess is because it was not one of Cindy's knives. I believe it was probably one of Tony's knives. Already lot's of speculation, which I think is valid, that KC used the dinner knife to cut the duct tape. So this would lead me to believe the duct tape was applied at Tony's and not her parent's.

I think it is important to know for certain whether the dinner knife was from the Anthony's or not.

The duct tape

Where did the duct tape come from? I know that LE is looking for a match with tape from her parent's home, including tape found on the gas cans. Having a match would be very useful to the prosecution's case. But, why get the tape from one location and the instrument to cut it from another location? Could she have instead taken the tape from Tony's? Would she already have the tape based on the text from Amy indicating KC had Amy's duct tape? Would she have purchased the tape on her own (I think this is unlikely)? Would she have taken the tape from her parents with the intention of using it later?

I think again that finding the source of the dinner knife can help nail the source of the tape. Guess I will need to reread the Cindy interviews to see if she might have said it was one of theirs.
 
The knife

Another odd little thing that has puzzled me is the source of the kitchen knife. Cindy removed it from the car along with a number of other items. Maybe she washed it, maybe not, but she apparently did not put it in with her dinnerware, because she was able to easily locate it and give it to Det. Beasley along with the other items.

My guess is because it was not one of Cindy's knives. I believe it was probably one of Tony's knives. Already lot's of speculation, which I think is valid, that KC used the dinner knife to cut the duct tape. So this would lead me to believe the duct tape was applied at Tony's and not her parent's.

How can we be sure CA gave them the correct knife anyway? How would LE know? Is it stated in a doc dump that CA took it from the car and washed it, or is that in an interview somewhere? I know it's common knowledge, but I'm just wondering where that info. came from. I can't go back and look right now, but wasn't the knife listed as "items removed from the car", as in LE removed it from the car?
 
Some of the pieces are still not fitting together for me, particularly use of the jeep and the source of the trash bag.
*snipped*

Frustrating, isn't it...:banghead:

I pounded out about an hours worth of investigation into 6/19 last night trying to figure out how she might've pulled another 'outta-gas' or 'broken down' so there would be no chance of having to take the Pontiac to Crane's Landing. This would be consistent w/ what she told Chris S too. But, leaving the car somewhere that might appear broken-down or abandoned w/ the body in the trunk woulda been a huge gamble...I've been back'n forth re: the text to Amy 'bout running outta gas two Friday's in a row. Was she a day off...and she'd told this story to Amy too at some point prior to 6/27, hence, Amy having a reference for both events??

I know I definitely over-thought her disposal site before we knew of Suburban Dr.. I still am amazed she executed the disposal on Suburban (a) taking a chance on being seen, and (b) when there were so many other 'better' options. Sooo...maybe I'm over-thinking again....gotta learn the lesson again...think Casey...think Casey...

...which kinda brings me to something simpler like Casey returning to Tony's after Chris S.'s ~7:30PM and bagged the body by parking her car in a space outta the way @ Sutton apt. (there are some tree-covered corners...and the lot may have been relatively empty during summer break since it is so close to Full Sail, perhaps a decent sized college-student contingent). Then, she drove down to Suburban in the Pontiac and disposed of the body. The body was already in a hamper bag...so being seen @ Sutton xfr'ing bag into bag wouldn't have been a problem....only the odor...doable methinks.

IF Casey had used the outta-gas or broken-down excuse just to avoid the chance of taking the Pontiac to Crane's Landing...then perhaps...the reason she was driving the Jeep @ Chris S's had something to do w/ the the logistics of switching drivers & Tony's plans that evening. Chris S.'s is near Fusian, correct? It was Thursday night. Did Tony hafta set things up for the next night, Fusian Friday...giving Casey some time to excuse herself while he worked???

Why Suburban??? Outta the way vs. starting out @ Tony's apt. I know, but, that's a whole 'nother subject...

I agree re: bag & knife. Those logistics hafta work too.

RE: duct tape: Perhaps there was some duct tape in Amy's totalled car left over from the ABC party. The party was in May before she wrecked her car...and the car was @ Tony's apt post-6/14...Casey had the key.

RE: bag: I'm back to what you suggested in the 6/19 ping thread...that Casey used the 50min period between 3:07PM and 3:57PM to run over to JBPark...think through her plan...then stop by one of the stores nearby and pick up the bags.
 
Some of the pieces are still not fitting together for me, particularly use of the jeep and the source of the trash bag.

The jeep

First, why did she borrow the jeep? What reason did she give Tony?Didn't she tell Tony her Dad was going to pick the car up from amscot & fix it.??

Driving south from Chris S. to dump the body near her parents seems to me like she is kind of going out of the way. She was not down that way all day. Why not dump the body near Chris S.? Lot's of locations there. :confused:

Based on where the body was found, it does not seem that KC would need to back a vehicle into the location to dump the body, but even if she did, she would not need the jeep. Pictures of the curb do not look substantial - the Pontiac should have no trouble backing into there. If someone can find real clear pictures of the curb showing otherwise, please point me to them.

The bag

Bagging the body in the garbage bag on the 19th works from the ADD perspective. Fluids would leak through the laundry bag, but not a garbage bag. Very easy to poke hole in g-bag, besides it also *looks* like trash.

But where did she get the bag? I had personally assumed that if she got it from Tony's, it would be a white kitchen bag. He's single, small apartment, has a nearby dumpster. He is not going to accumulate a ton of garbage each day. I'd be willing to bet he only had the white kitchen bags and had no need for the larger black bags.

So maybe she got the bags from her parents. The search warrant does not say what color the pull handles were, but the forensic narrative does say that a black bag with yellow pull handles was put into evidence back in July, and Yuri checked it out of the evidence room on December 16. So LE is looking for a match.IIRC, CA gave LE some evidence from the home in a g-bag, looks like they kept the bag too.

But KC did not go to her parent's home on the 19th, meaning if the bag came from the home, then she got it on the 16th, 17th, 18th, or 20th.

Why get the bag early if it is not needed? I don't see her planning ahead on this one. But getting the bag on the 20th is too late. I don't see the body farm being off by a full day (30+%) on this one...although anything is possible.

The knife

Another odd little thing that has puzzled me is the source of the kitchen knife. Cindy removed it from the car along with a number of other items. Maybe she washed it, maybe not, but she apparently did not put it in with her dinnerware, because she was able to easily locate it and give it to Det. Beasley along with the other items.

My guess is because it was not one of Cindy's knives. I believe it was probably one of Tony's knives. Already lot's of speculation, which I think is valid, that KC used the dinner knife to cut the duct tape. So this would lead me to believe the duct tape was applied at Tony's and not her parent's.

I think it is important to know for certain whether the dinner knife was from the Anthony's or not.Did we ever find out if this is butter knife or like from a set of (sharp) kitchen knives ?? maybe since CA had already mentioned a knife, she just grabbed one to give to LE ??

The duct tape

Where did the duct tape come from? I know that LE is looking for a match with tape from her parent's home, including tape found on the gas cans. Having a match would be very useful to the prosecution's case. But, why get the tape from one location and the instrument to cut it from another location? Could she have instead taken the tape from Tony's? Would she already have the tape based on the text from Amy indicating KC had Amy's duct tape? Would she have purchased the tape on her own (I think this is unlikely)? Would she have taken the tape from her parents with the intention of using it later?Wonder if Amy duct tape was almost used up ?? Also nowdays they're selling smaller rolls of duct tape.

I think again that finding the source of the dinner knife can help nail the source of the tape. Guess I will need to reread the Cindy interviews to see if she might have said it was one of theirs.

hope this helps
 
You all have excellent theories and I enjoy reading your work. I have nothing to add at all with the exception to a comment by JWG.

JWG speculated about robitussin and/or nyquil. I thought also, if she were medicating Caylee in order to make her sleepy with an OTC med. she might be using Benedryl.

The reason I say that is because of the fact it is OTC and many people assume that it's safe as aspirin and/or tylenol.

What brought this to mind was not only am I in contact with younger adults that express that they themselves have done this in the past to their own children. But an incident that happened back in 2003 or so.

Day care workers were medicating infants in order to make them sleep. Several infants have died from being given benedryl. Now Caylee was 2 yrs and 10 months (I believe) at the time of her death but benedryl can easily be purchased in liquid form and given to a child mixed with a drink.

Just wanted to add that so that you all could explore it and rule it out:

Link to article discussing the deaths of the daycare infants:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/02/earlyshow/health/health_news/main571181.shtml
 
Where did the duct tape come from? I know that LE is looking for a match with tape from her parent's home, including tape found on the gas cans. Having a match would be very useful to the prosecution's case. But, why get the tape from one location and the instrument to cut it from another location? Could she have instead taken the tape from Tony's? Would she already have the tape based on the text from Amy indicating KC had Amy's duct tape? Would she have purchased the tape on her own (I think this is unlikely)? Would she have taken the tape from her parents with the intention of using it later?

I think again that finding the source of the dinner knife can help nail the source of the tape. Guess I will need to reread the Cindy interviews to see if she might have said it was one of theirs.

While working around the house, another puzzle regarding the duct tape popped in my mind.

Why wasn't a used roll found somewhere in the car? :confused:

KC seemed to have a habit of tossing potentially incriminating evidence into the car: stained pants, a knife potentially used to cut the duct tape, a bag full of garbage in the trunk. But no roll of duct tape. Why would she toss just that and not everything else? :waitasec:
 
You all have excellent theories and I enjoy reading your work. I have nothing to add at all with the exception to a comment by JWG.

JWG speculated about robitussin and/or nyquil. I thought also, if she were medicating Caylee in order to make her sleepy with an OTC med. she might be using Benedryl.

The reason I say that is because of the fact it is OTC and many people assume that it's safe as aspirin and/or tylenol.

What brought this to mind was not only am I in contact with younger adults that express that they themselves have done this in the past to their own children. But an incident that happened back in 2003 or so.

Day care workers were medicating infants in order to make them sleep. Several infants have died from being given benedryl. Now Caylee was 2 yrs and 10 months (I believe) at the time of her death but benedryl can easily be purchased in liquid form and given to a child mixed with a drink.

Just wanted to add that so that you all could explore it and rule it out:

Link to article discussing the deaths of the daycare infants:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/02/earlyshow/health/health_news/main571181.shtml

Thank you Kat. I did not mean to give an exhaustive list, but if I did try then Benadryl would be at the top.

Caylee and Casey had what sounds like colds per the texts to Amy in late May, so no doubt they had meds for that in the house.
 
While working around the house, another puzzle regarding the duct tape popped in my mind.

Why wasn't a used roll found somewhere in the car? :confused:

KC seemed to have a habit of tossing potentially incriminating evidence into the car: stained pants, a knife potentially used to cut the duct tape, a bag full of garbage in the trunk. But no roll of duct tape. Why would she toss just that and not everything else? :waitasec:

I have a possible answer.

On July 15th after the Anthony's brought the car home from the tow yard, they took the battery out of the car, opened the windows and doors and tried to air it out. They both also went to work. Cindy eventually came back home early at the urging of her co-workers.

Not knowing really what to do, she took a bunch of items out of the car. Most of the items she took inside the house - the backpack, hangers, toothbrush, clothing items, purse, dinner knife. But one item did not "belong" inside the house - it was more a "garage" item.

The used roll of duct tape. :eek:

As Cindy was cleaning the car, she probably tossed it on one of the shelves in the garage. And promptly forgot about it.

She also tossed the stinky clothes in the laundry located in the garage, as those on the "house plans" thread have hypothesized. Makes sense...

She put all of the other items together in one area inside the house...maybe Casey's room. Then she texted KC and asked her to call her - "big problem". (All of that is on another thread).

When Det. Beasley collected the items from Cindy, Cindy probably just grabbed those in one place, put them in a plastic garbage bag, and handed them to the Det. By now she'd forgotten the duct tape because of the emotional whirlwind she was going through. Honest oversight, IMHO.

Now, before there is a flurry of "Cindy meant to hide the duct tape", recognize we all make mistakes, especially when in crisis. I believe such an oversight is not just possible but likely. The good news is that even if the duct tape did not originally come from the Anthony's, LE may very likely be in possession of the roll because Cindy put it in the garage.

Speaking of mistakes...read the incident report Det. Beasley wrote regarding the collection of these items. Cindy is listed as a black, 27 year old female with black hair. Methinks Det. Beasley was describing herself and not Cindy... :rolleyes:
 
While working around the house, another puzzle regarding the duct tape popped in my mind.

Why wasn't a used roll found somewhere in the car? :confused:

KC seemed to have a habit of tossing potentially:rolleyes: incriminating evidence into the car: stained pants, a knife potentially:rolleyes: used to cut the duct tape, a bag full of garbage in the trunk. But no roll of duct tape. Why would she toss just that and not everything else? :waitasec:

Insertions by me!

JWG You're getting the "potentially" bug! That word will never be the same for me.

One question I have is why the garbage bag inside a laundry bag, out in the open, a laundry bag is easier to spot, rather that a black garbage bag amonst so many others in the area?
 
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