Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #4

[kiki the parrot]

see I see her as a person who avoids. she avoids everything, especially conflict. After the falling out with her mother and being told she was a bad mother, for caylee have a fatal accident would have meant complete conflict with her family. She avoided that reality instead by pretending it never happened.

I understand and respect your opinion otherwise, these are just my thoughts & impressions of the situation.

If she wanted away from caylee so bad as to kill her, why keep her body in the car so long the car stunk of death? why place her body where she buried her beloved pets? why not rid herself of body fast and far away from the home / crime scene?? I think there was attachment, grief, guilt & shame. Just because we haven't personally witnessed it on t.v. doesn't mean it never occurred.

I'm not saying I don't think she is all screwed up, I think she is, but I just don't see any degree of planning here, only reacting - and lies to cover her own guilt or shame.

(bold mine, snipped) ITA. In place of an intolerable level of healthy guilt (which could then conceivably be alleviated or assuaged by a confession or admission), KC carries instead what apears to be a pathological load of shame.

I agree that KC has been avoiding admitting the truth to her parents at all costs. I believe that once CA had persuaded KC to have and keep Caylee, that baby became a family 'enterprise', a joint endeavour. She was mothered by both KC and CA, and CA and GA invested very heavily into the job of raising Caylee, both financially and emotionally. I found a couple of KC's comments very telling. First that she told LE her mother would never forgive her if anything happened to Caylee, and also her comment in one of the jail videos about how Caylee was not just her baby, but was also CA's and GA's as well.

I think she could not, and still cannot, admit to any blame for Caylee's death, whatever her level of culpability, because she knew that once they found out Caylee was dead they would be heart-broken, and if they knew it was her fault in any way, she would never be forgiven, and no matter how much CA might like us to believe that this is not the case, I believe any hope of a decent relationship between this mother and daughter would be (and will be) lost forever.

I can see the flurry of calls in those two situations. in the event she intentionally harmed her - i can't see her hanging out and making all the calls.

after that window of opportunity to tell her family what happened passed... she slipped into automatic which is to avoid responsibility, blame, and conflict and to lie cheat steal or whatever to assist her in her avoidance.

(respectfully snipped, bold mine) Exactly. It would be both risky and unnecessary to waste time making calls had she just committed a murder.

I agree that KC appears to be unafraid of CA, and that she blatantly stole from all and sundry, but IMO this behaviour had been so long condoned and excused by CA that she thought it didn't matter too much. I think the relationship between KC and CA was a very enmeshed and interdependent one, each accusing and blaming the other and yet needing each other emotionally, but not in a healthy way.

As to whether KC is blaming CA for Caylee's death, if it was an accident, she could well hold CA responsible in some way. If the pool ladder was left out, who left it there? If there were hazardous household substances or medications within Caylee's reach, or any other form of hazard in the house that day, who was responsible? It was KC's responsibility to watch and care for Caylee, but I can quite see her mentally offloading some blame of that sort onto CA.

(bold mine) Devon I strongly agree w this. I have long wondered (and posted to this effect) whether there might not have been some level of shared blame between these two which could be responsible for the puzzling collusion and protecting we've seen by CA. But one thing remains certain. IF Caylee's death was solely the result of KC's ultimate screw up, regardless of how skillful she may have been in the past at scapegoating or blameshifting, she realized this time was different--and as KC herself confessed to both LE and LA, she knew her mother could never forgive her. As always, JMHO
arrot:

 

[FaerieB]

also, everyone keeps saying duct tape was around caylee's mouth... is this stated by police? or is it simply stated tape around the skull? I've thought she probably put it over Caylee's eyes rather than mouth - when moving her she couldn't stand to look into her open eyes so placed tape to close them. just a thought - if police haven't said it was covering the mouth.

To answer your question, it is covered in two different places in the last doc dump. The first is the forensics section report on page 42 where they state:

2. I observed what appeared to be duct tape on the mouth area of the skull.

The second place it's mentioned is in one of the warrants sought after Caylee's discovery.

Hope it helps.

FB

 

[Amil]

I'm not defending nor am I trying to justify what happened to Caylee. I feel that her death was unintentional, perhaps accidental. I do not know how it happened, but I do suspect an overdose of some kind. And I feel it wasn't the first time a drug was used on Caylee. Casey was putting Caylee at risk with her selfish lifestyle.

I do not think that Casey is a planner by any stretch of the imagination. I do not think this death was a premeditated event. There were too many panic-induced scenarios that seem to be evolving. Borrowing a shovel, going to the back yard to hide her, then that didn't work out. Putting her body in the car trunk. Well that didn't work out so well either. I feel that she really didn't know what in the world to do. The ONE thing that she was sure of........she wouldn't tell a soul, no matter what.

I think she didn't count on just how much body fluid is produced by a decomposing body. Perhaps the fluid escaped out the mouth and nose, the path of least resistance and thereby she used duct tape to hold the fluid in. We may never know what hell Casey went through trying all alone to decide what to do with her daughter's body. Sheer panic. She let too much time pass and told too many lies to back up and tell the truth. The heart sticker was Casey's way of saying "I didn't mean for this to happen, I'm sorry". It's not much, but it's all she could muster.

I think the disposing of the body where she did was also a hasty decision provoked by Lord only knows what. If Caylee's death had been premeditated, she would have picked a more remote location, thought out well in advance. All she could think to do - was run and hide - and lie as she had always done to cover her tracks. After two or three weeks, it seemed to be working for her. So, she used the same old worn-out lie over and over. "She's fine. She's with the Nanny".

Casey is in a very bad place right now. The only thing that would serve her well is the truth. But with attorneys determined to get her off, she will not be able to tell the truth at all. She's stuck. She's angry because her parents can't get her out of this one. The one little person who loved her no matter what - is gone from her life. Perhaps one day, she just might get a glimmering of just how much she was loved.

That is a very well-thought out rationale. Kudos.

 

[kikid]

To answer your question, it is covered in two different places in the last doc dump. The first is the forensics section report on page 42 where they state:

2. I observed what appeared to be duct tape on the mouth area of the skull.

The second place it's mentioned is in one of the warrants sought after Caylee's discovery.

Hope it helps.

FB

thanks for that info, i wasn't sure if it was speculated or known for fact.

 

[piratemom]

Ok my theory tonight is 6/16 KC puts Caylee in he car and gives her some benedryl/xanax something to make her sleepy and fall asleep in the car so she can have some "me" time. Caylee either dies from an unwitting overdose of a sedative or heat exhaustion something like that and it was accidental. But KC doesnt know what to do and panicks. Caylee is already gone, she doesnt call 911. She tries to get her parents but cant hence the flurry of calls so she puts the baby in the trunk and goes on with her life and tells herself she is the victim in this accident. She puts Caylee in the bag with the heart sticker and thinks she will carry on with this charade until caught and then will claim the nanny did it.
After 7/15 calls and being "caught" she sticks with this nanny story until after the August interviews. When she tells CA, GA via a written letter what happened and that it was an accident and she was the victim in this. If CA hadnt made her keep the baby, If CA hadnt fought with her, made her work etc she wouldnt have been so tired, scattered to have let this accident happen. This is when we see a shift in the Anthonys behavior like they already know she is dead and they have to play this out so they wont lose KC too. Its also right about then this meter reader makes the 3 calls about finding the body, as if someone might have leaked this info...
This is my theory tonight.

 

[robotdog]

some things are unforgiveable

simple as that


well, not to mention If you want forgiveness it might be a good start to actually admit the fault and then ASK for it

 

[piratemom]

Bumpity bump

 

[kew17]

I, too, seem to change my mind daily on what may have happened. I do, however, feel that kc at all costs, had to hide Caylee, unable as possible to not be found, for fear of someone being able to tell how she died. (ie: tox test) I really believe if it were truly an accident, she would have come forward immediately as her victim role would have been much too grand for her to pass up.

 

[Rumpole]

IMO
The most critical item to determine/guess is the Time of Death.
Theories have proposed late on the night of 15th June thru 16th June to 17th June.
I can not recall any beyond then?
The exact time of death is linked to the manner of death, the place it occurred, and the time the body was dumped, or at least sealed in a black garbage bag.

 

[seagull65]

Re: Poll --- You left out "other". For example, I think it's possible Caylee was assaulted/murdered but by someone other than KC.

Re: Chloroform --- RM had the chloroform joke on his facebook first, KC could have researched it for many reasons other than planning a murder. No reason to plan a murder because it would be so much easier to just leave Caylee with Geo & Cindy than kill her. Caylee was getting to an age that she could probably even go to public "headstart" or pre-K soon during the days and KC would have more free time than ever. I don't see the crisis of I have to kill Caylee to be free to party, she'd maintained her social life throughout Caylee's life for almost 3 years. If she was worried about Caylee getting to an age that she could tell the grandparents about what KC was really up to in her lifestyle, it would have been easiest for KC to just leave Caylee with Geo & Cindy, she probably knew from the track record that they would not file for formal custody or even if they did she could always see Caylee just as much as she wanted to. It would be the best of both worlds, really.

I think it's possible that when KC left her parents' house, and became dependent on guys for a place to stay, staying at the various apartments, getting wrapped up in Tony's promotions at the club, etc, maybe also increasing drug and alcohol use, and Caylee exposed to a lot more people, Caylee could have finally been accessed by the wrong person somewhere along the line. Due to KC's stealing, I think Caylee could have been caught somehow in the crossfire of something KC did. The mystery to me is why is KC covering up and who is she covering for, was she involved and to what degree, etc. Did she lose Caylee and was afraid to admit it and just kept looking? Did Caylee disappear while friends were watching her (i.e. may in a social gathering or at the club) and they told her the last person around Caylee was Z? Does KC know exactly what happened to Caylee and who did it but is afraid to accuse them? I flip flop. Because of KC's constant strange stories, apparent untruths that will be discovered immediately and disproved, I also can't rule out that she's just mentally not all there. Or else some of the statements we consider to be lies aren't.

 

[seagull65]

I always leaned strongly toward an accident theory until the body was found with the tape on. To me the tape means that Caylee was assaulted and murdered. It seems very unlikely to me if KC were the perpetrator that she would leave the tape on, or that she would drive around with the body in the trunk and not dispose of it immediately, it (seems like she would only do that if she didn't know at first that Caylee's body was in the trunk, or if the body had been placed there and then moved without her knowledge or involvement. She lived with lots of people and hung out at the club with lots of people, I can't rule out someone accessing her car.) I also can't rule out KC killing Caylee but I see no reason for a premeditated murder, and find even an un-premeditated murder unlikely, maybe if she was really tripping on drugs. Still undecided.

I have always wondered too about the possibility that Caylee accidentally closed herself in the trunk but KC initially thought, due to the ongoing dispute with her parents, that her parents had taken Caylee so didn't search. Then when she realized what had happened, didn't know how to admit it, thought she was responsible and guilty, and possibly lost her weak mental hold on reality for a while.
What if Caylee died by accidentally ingesting drugs, or from an injury while being watched by one of KC's paramours or a friend, KC would be afraid to admit either of these to her parents.... But covering it up to the point of being charged with murder? Maybe if they said, hey, this wasn't my fault, you shouldn't have left her here, if you try to blame this on me, I'll tell them such and such, or we'll tell them it was you, or whatever. I don't know.
Then the tape. The tape blows any accident theories for me. I still don't know. Excuse my flip-flopping.

p.s. re: shovel, I find it hard to believe if KC wanted a shovel to either kill someone with or bury a body, that she would go asking for a neighbor's shovel.

 

[txsvicki]

Maybe the neighbor had the type shovel that was wider to pick up something.

 

[seagull65]

I, too, seem to change my mind daily on what may have happened. I do, however, feel that kc at all costs, had to hide Caylee, unable as possible to not be found, for fear of someone being able to tell how she died. (ie: tox test) I really believe if it were truly an accident, she would have come forward immediately as her victim role would have been much too grand for her to pass up.

that is a very good point, too.

 

[cyberborg]

Re: Poll --- You left out "other". For example, I think it's possible Caylee was assaulted/murdered but by someone other than KC.

Re: Chloroform --- RM had the chloroform joke on his facebook first, KC could have researched it for many reasons other than planning a murder. No reason to plan a murder because it would be so much easier to just leave Caylee with Geo & Cindy than kill her. Caylee was getting to an age that she could probably even go to public "headstart" or pre-K soon during the days and KC would have more free time than ever. I don't see the crisis of I have to kill Caylee to be free to party, she'd maintained her social life throughout Caylee's life for almost 3 years. If she was worried about Caylee getting to an age that she could tell the grandparents about what KC was really up to in her lifestyle, it would have been easiest for KC to just leave Caylee with Geo & Cindy, she probably knew from the track record that they would not file for formal custody or even if they did she could always see Caylee just as much as she wanted to. It would be the best of both worlds, really.

I think it's possible that when KC left her parents' house, and became dependent on guys for a place to stay, staying at the various apartments, getting wrapped up in Tony's promotions at the club, etc, maybe also increasing drug and alcohol use, and Caylee exposed to a lot more people, Caylee could have finally been accessed by the wrong person somewhere along the line. Due to KC's stealing, I think Caylee could have been caught somehow in the crossfire of something KC did. The mystery to me is why is KC covering up and who is she covering for, was she involved and to what degree, etc. Did she lose Caylee and was afraid to admit it and just kept looking? Did Caylee disappear while friends were watching her (i.e. may in a social gathering or at the club) and they told her the last person around Caylee was Z? Does KC know exactly what happened to Caylee and who did it but is afraid to accuse them? I flip flop. Because of KC's constant strange stories, apparent untruths that will be discovered immediately and disproved, I also can't rule out that she's just mentally not all there. Or else some of the statements we consider to be lies aren't.

Doesn't add up. I seriously doubt that KC would spend months in jail, if not years (they say this could take 1-2 years before it goes to trial) to cover for anyone. Given KC's nature she would throw anyone she could under the bus immediately if she could be free and go party.

Also, in the 31 days before CA called 911 KC was feeding everyone stories on where Caylee was, at the beach, in Disney, with the Nanny, sleeping -- she was very comfortable and convincing with those lies. EVEN when caught until LA told her LE would make her take them to Caylee. Light goes on!! She gave CA the runaround such that when CA located KC that she was so frustrated she dialed 911, not only dialed but escalated.

KC has toughed it out all through this circus, through issues for her family, no matter what the price -- KC has paid the price in order to maintain her silence. Conscience of guilt.

We all see KC in the jail videos, she does not even want to really discuss Caylee, mention her, even ask for news of her when the family meeting first starts.

KC killed Caylee and is so over her, it is all about KC. Her own actions and statements convict her. The fingerprints on the duct tape (if true) seal the deal.

 

[seagull65]

cyberborg, I don't disagree with you about KC's demeanor in prison. Very odd. I was bothered by exactly the same things everyone else was, trust me. We do have to remember that those phone calls and visitation videos were all from early in the case, it is possible that she didn't know yet that Caylee was dead, she could have thought all that time that Caylee was with someone who wouldn't harm her, however naiive that might be. Of course she could have killed Caylee and could just be a complete psychopath, totally over it and just annoyed that anyone would want to talk about Caylee anymore because it is so unimportant to her. Obviously a possibility. Or she could be mentally ill, not unusual for onset to occur in the ealry twenties. But trust me, I ask all the same questions about her failure to report, strange stories, and demeanor.

 

[cyberborg]

cyberborg, I don't disagree with you about KC's demeanor in prison. Very odd. I was bothered by exactly the same things everyone else was, trust me. We do have to remember that those phone calls and visitation videos were all from early in the case, it is possible that she didn't know yet that Caylee was dead, she could have thought all that time that Caylee was with someone who wouldn't harm her, however naiive that might be. Of course she could have killed Caylee and could just be a complete psychopath, totally over it and just annoyed that anyone would want to talk about Caylee anymore because it is so unimportant to her. Obviously a possibility. Or she could be mentally ill, not unusual for onset to occur in the ealry twenties. But trust me, I ask all the same questions about her failure to report, strange stories, and demeanor.

I can buy mentally ill but not insane. I cannot buy "she could have thought all that time that Caylee was with someone who wouldn't harm her". IMHO.

I do think JB is acting in his own best interest and NOT KC's. Every step of the way this case has escalated in stakes and the DP could return, KC should have plead out as an accident or manslaughter. She *might* get off on a technicality or the sympathetic one juror BUT she is prolonging her agony and fate, risking another break in the case as this plays out in the media.

 

[claudicici]

I don't believe that anyone other than kc killed caylee either and I was also one that held on to some kind of accident theory until I found out about the duct tape and the heart.....but however vague the possibility is that someone was trying to frame kc and she was and is scared to admit the truth it is still a possibility that should be allowed to be discussed...

 

[Doodlelover]

To Seagull


I understand exactly where you are coming from but feel I must point out that you are taking these things apart and examining them like a sane person. I can tell you aren't a sociopath just by the way you rationalize. See you say there was no reason for KC to kill Caylee because she could have just left her with CA. This is exactly what you or I or any "normal" person would do.

BUT, this is absolutley NOT what a Borderline or sociopath would do. If you have never experienced their thinking or the absolute disconnect they live with you cannot understand that YES, KC would have killed Caylee before she left her with CA for so many reason that make not a lick of sense to a normal person.

Why did Susan Smith drown her boys when her husband would have taken them in a heartbeat. Because in her twisted mind it would have made her look like a bad parent to just give away her boys. In the NORMAL mind we are like WTH, she thinks killing them makes her look better than just giving them to their dad? But see, she never thought people wouldn't believe her story or would care so much. Sound familiar.

But like you, I am not 100% sure that it was not accidental. The only thing that throws me is the duct tape. Even if it was accidental, I firmly believe that it was from neglect. From her busy talking on the phone while Caylee was asleep in the car in the garage or something. To me it is still KC's fault.

My theory is that she did leave the morning of the 16th as George said but she went to Lee's to wait until George went to work so she could come back to the house. I think this happened often as a cover for "work" I think she either medicated Caylee so she would nap at Lee's and quickly left Lee's to go over to the A's to pick up some of her stuff and when she got back to Lee's Caylee was gone from overdose, OR, she drove back from Lee's and Caylee fell asleep in the car and since she had no plans to stay at the A's, was just picking up some stuff, left Caylee in the car while she backed into the garage, she went into the house, got sidetracked on the computer or phone with JG or AH and when she finally went back out to check on Caylee she was gone from the heat if the car was off, or Carbon monoxide in the garage if she left the car on so that Caylee would have air conditioning.

I think she freaked out and rushed her to the pool to cool her down, but it was too late. She left the gate out in her panic and after she plunged Caylee into the pool, she laid her down beside the pool, thus the dogs hit here. She again quickly moved her over to the more private area of the yard, the playhouse area and layed here there and ran in the house and made a flurry of calls, none of which were answered. She knew she couldn't call 911, CA would never forgive her for causing Caylee's death. She went into automatic coverup mode and put her in the trunk. This I think is where the choloform may come from. The wet pool water and a combination of cleaning products later on.

Sorry this is so long. But that's my theory.

 

[nyvictoria]

New to WS...my first post. This is a great site with many, many intelligent people!! I have a ton of reading to do to catch up so forgive me if this has been mentioned before.

Re KC drugging Caylee...wouldn't LE be able to test Caylee's hair for drugs?

 

[Sythy]

Seagull, I think your post is very interesting and I'm pretty certain that the defense is hoping that the the jury will think just like you are! And I have to agree with Doodle that your theory would work if KC was just an average sane person like yourself. Unfortunatly I don't think the same logic applies in her case! JMHO.