Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #4

[kiki the parrot]

I think you were on target right up until you got to the part about Cindy being so hard on Casey and that having any real impact on Casey's sense of self. I believe it was Cindy who was never hard enough on Casey...always allowing her to get away with her fantastic tales probably for many, many years and I see no reason why Casey wouldn't just figure her mother was on another rant and it would pass in a day or so like usual.

I believe the fight did indeed happen on the evening of June 15th. I believe Cindy probably in anger laid out her plans to have Casey declared an unfit mother and take Caylee away from her. *This* would have really been the last straw for Casey. I believe she is a classic narcissist of the worst stripe. Once again all the attention is on Caylee, Caylee, Caylee. Narcissists *need* to be the total focus of *all* attention at *all* times.

Now Casey's mother is focusing on Caylee's needs over and above Casey's wants and needs and Casey just can't have that anymore. Narcissists don't view other people as human beings in their own right. To narcissists other people exist in the world *only* as Narcissistic Supply (attention suppliers) for the narcissist. Caylee is always getting in the way of Casey...hogging up all the attention that Casey believes she *alone* is entitled to.

Also, narcissists play cruel and manipulative mental games with other people. One of their favorite games is "Keep Away." This game involves withholding whatever it is that another person values or wants most. For Cindy that "something" is obviously Caylee and Cindy made that *very* clear during the June 15th fight. Doing that was like waving a red flag under a bull's nose.

Casey immediately (in her "spiteful b*tch" mode) decided she would withhold what her mother wanted most in life...Caylee. At the same time Casey didn't want the bother of caring full time for Caylee nor did she want Caylee to continue to consume the Narcissistic Supply (attention) Casey believed was her due *alone.* I think that is the point where premeditation (way beyond the computer searches earlier) came into play. Getting rid of Caylee would serve two great purposes for Casey

1) revenge on her mother and really, really hurting her mother and more importantly

2) retrieving the Center of Attention Status Casey believed was her birth right by getting rid of the "little distraction."

Because Casey lives only 10 minutes at a time and can't think more than 10 minutes ahead in time, she didn't have a good plan for how to get away with murder. She just had an urge or an itch and she scratched it and everything else was done on the wing, thinking and planning as things came up or 10 minutes at a time.

I think Casey killed Caylee at home sometime during the night of June 15th or the early morning of June 16th. Possibly she suffocated Caylee with a pillow. I think the duct tape may have been to keep Caylee quiet during the suffocation "just in case" Caylee could scream out. I don't believe the kidnapping plan had even been formulated in Casey's attention deficited mind at that time. That came later.

I think the chloroform found in the trunk possibly was the result of the decomp. I don't believe Casey is smart enough to make chloroform and even if she was, I don't believe she has the patience to do it. Again, she only thinks 10 minutes ahead at a time and probably making chloroform requires a longer attention span than that.

Re bolded, the family dynamic here is in perfect keeping then w pathological narcissism which is actually said to develop as a result of the combination of both parenting extremes--the excusing, enabling, excessive coddling and permissiveness we clearly see along with harsh, critical or generally unpredictable, parent-, versus child-centered, parenting--which fits what we know to a tee. Re "Keep Away" though, it does not follow that KC would then destroy her own leveraging power, her "meal ticket," "bargaining chip" and only "pawn." Often the truth is even simpler than we're inclined to make it. The self-absorption, selfish priorities etc characteristic of a pathological narcissist would naturally manifest in the inattentitiveness, neglect and poor supervision which by themselves are easily capable of causing the death of a toddler--especially in a home w a swimming pool. No planning nor even intent required. JMO

 

[armywife210]

Makes sense to me. Plans in advance. What would the odds be for Caylee to die accidentally in the pool or in the car when she was on the computer?

We can't forget the web searches prior to Caylee's death. Too much coincidence if if was accidental.

EXACTLY. True, if you look at my computer at this point you will see that I have done a lot of crazy research on a lot of crazy things... but to look up specifically "how to make chloroform".... only to have it found in the trunk of your car a short time later after your daughter comes up "missing"... of course, the chloroform traces are accompanied by a hair proven to be that of your daughter... complete with a death band... that's outside the box of coincidence. As is a search on "neck breaking" shortly before your daughters "abduction". So on and so forth. It just seems that the coincidences are entirely too stacked to be coincidences.

I think it was preplanned. It may be something she was thinking about on and off. Maybe in the beginning it was just a "pretend time" thought at first. I think she began to take that thought more seriously as her mom began to come down on her about taking her role as a parent more seriously. KC may not have planned to do it THAT NIGHT, but she had definately thought about doing it.

Why was it done so sloppily then, as if it wasn't preplanned?
I have serious suspicions that ADHD is one of KC's many issues. I see it in so many of her actions. Those with ADHD do not think things through. They fantasize. Only to the "climactic" point, and shortly after, of that fantasy. They don't have the ability to think about how they will get away with what they'll do, the consequences of what they'll do. They truely do just play it all out as it comes.
I have ADHD, as many people do. I also work with kids that have ADHD, teaching them how to cope and thrive with it. I know how we think, and that enables me to do what I do.
I think ADHD does play a part in the makeup of KC. Geez, just the whole "i'm not pregnant" thing points to ADHD. How in the world did she think she would get away with that? She didn't have the ability to think it through to that point.
This does NOT, in any way, condone ANYTHING she has done in my mind. But it would explain why I think she was so sloppy.

 

[FightTheOstrich]

After watchng the video yesterday, & the look on Cindy's face, with her hands up to her mouth, it was the look of someone seeing Horror for the first time....she was watching & listening to KC & it was a look of disbelief. Why then, after this visit & KC's subsequent release from jail, does she goes right back to, 100% belief that KC did nothing to harm Caylee?

I'm back to the pool theory:waitasec: (I can hear the groans) What if KC, while she is home, admits to Cindy that Caylee did in fact climb the stairs & drown in the pool. I know Kline had asked on a different thread, that KC would have had to put up the ladder!

On the night of June 15th, when there was an argument, supported by the latest docs., pg 2499 from Mark F. to LE, & Cindy tells LE that she & Caylee were swimming in the pool that evening. KC comes home & the altercation begins.......If it was as heated as it has been reported, it would be easy to understand that it was Cindy who forgot to put the ladder away. This would explain why KC was not worried about Caylee, (on June 16th) whilst texting & working on the computer, as she knows she didn't attach the ladder. Now, Cindy feels guilty & becomes complicit in & has no choice, but, to stick with the runaway story, that at this point cannot be altered. Each know it was not deliberate, & feel they are victims of circumstance, of a horrible tragedy! Possible??

I like it. Would explain a lot.

 

[Themis]

Sunday, June 15, 2008 Afternoon

Then a huge domestic argument/fight at the Anthony home late afternoon/evening of June 15, 2008.

Casey's anger

A 2 year old would probably have been distressed by the argument/fight.


A very distressed Caylee

These photos are not necessarily all taken on June 15, 2008, but the emotional sequencing adds to understanding what probably happened to Caylee, why and about when it happened. This is the emotional foundation. Then add the chloroform, control issues, lack of funds for another solution like an apartment, huge confrontations, a deep history of lying, computer research, a duct taped mouth and more and all the little clues come together to tell the story.

 

[seekjustice]

I thought it was very interesting that when CA brought up that someone had told her that Caylee was dead, and that Caylee had drowned in the pool (I can't remember the exact words)

KC says "surprise surprise" with a look on her face that I can't quite identify.

I've been struggling over KC's reaction here. Is she...

a. referencing the the fact that media is sugesting Caylee is dead?
b. did she know it was only a matter of time before someone realized Caylee drowned?

The look in her eye for a split second is almost a "gotcha", "you've been found out" kind of moment.

ETA: I cannot reconcile a drowning with LE's belief that Caylee's death was intentional and a Grand Jury ruling of Murder 1. I still don't buy pre-meditated at this point but in my mind accidental went out the window a long time ago...jmo
Only problem is I've never believed Caylee drowned...never...I just don't know though.

 

[seekjustice]

Sunday, June 15, 2008 Afternoon

Then a huge domestic argument/fight at the Anthony home late afternoon/evening of June 15, 2008.

Casey's anger

A 2 year old would probably have been distressed by the argument/fight.


A very distressed Caylee

These photos are not necessarily all taken on June 15, 2008, but the emotional sequencing adds to understanding what probably happened to Caylee, why and about when it happened. This is the emotional foundation. Then add the chloroform, control issues, lack of funds for another solution like an apartment, huge confrontations, a deep history of lying, computer research, a duct taped mouth and more and all the little clues come together to tell the story.

It's unbelievably difficult to see that last photo, it gives you a look into what Caylee's final moment could have looked like.

 

[Themis]

It's unbelievably difficult to see that last photo, it gives you a look into what Caylee's final moment could have looked like.

I know.

 

[seekjustice]

(respectfully snipped, bold mine) ITA w bolded!



Yes I posted re this and the fact there might be shared silence ie both equally willing to avoid blaming or avoid pointing the finger at the other--if there was shared responsibility. JMO

bolded by me

IMO Casey is just sick enough that she would enjoy leading Cindy to believe it was her fault Caylee died.

 

[cuppy199]

I think you were on target right up until you got to the part about Cindy being so hard on Casey and that having any real impact on Casey's sense of self. I believe it was Cindy who was never hard enough on Casey...always allowing her to get away with her fantastic tales probably for many, many years and I see no reason why Casey wouldn't just figure her mother was on another rant and it would pass in a day or so like usual.

I believe the fight did indeed happen on the evening of June 15th. I believe Cindy probably in anger laid out her plans to have Casey declared an unfit mother and take Caylee away from her. *This* would have really been the last straw for Casey. I believe she is a classic narcissist of the worst stripe. Once again all the attention is on Caylee, Caylee, Caylee. Narcissists *need* to be the total focus of *all* attention at *all* times.

Now Casey's mother is focusing on Caylee's needs over and above Casey's wants and needs and Casey just can't have that anymore. Narcissists don't view other people as human beings in their own right. To narcissists other people exist in the world *only* as Narcissistic Supply (attention suppliers) for the narcissist. Caylee is always getting in the way of Casey...hogging up all the attention that Casey believes she *alone* is entitled to.

Also, narcissists play cruel and manipulative mental games with other people. One of their favorite games is "Keep Away." This game involves withholding whatever it is that another person values or wants most. For Cindy that "something" is obviously Caylee and Cindy made that *very* clear during the June 15th fight. Doing that was like waving a red flag under a bull's nose.

Casey immediately (in her "spiteful b*tch" mode) decided she would withhold what her mother wanted most in life...Caylee. At the same time Casey didn't want the bother of caring full time for Caylee nor did she want Caylee to continue to consume the Narcissistic Supply (attention) Casey believed was her due *alone.* I think that is the point where premeditation (way beyond the computer searches earlier) came into play. Getting rid of Caylee would serve two great purposes for Casey

1) revenge on her mother and really, really hurting her mother and more importantly

2) retrieving the Center of Attention Status Casey believed was her birth right by getting rid of the "little distraction."

Because Casey lives only 10 minutes at a time and can't think more than 10 minutes ahead in time, she didn't have a good plan for how to get away with murder. She just had an urge or an itch and she scratched it and everything else was done on the wing, thinking and planning as things came up or 10 minutes at a time.

I think Casey killed Caylee at home sometime during the night of June 15th or the early morning of June 16th. Possibly she suffocated Caylee with a pillow. I think the duct tape may have been to keep Caylee quiet during the suffocation "just in case" Caylee could scream out. I don't believe the kidnapping plan had even been formulated in Casey's attention deficited mind at that time. That came later.

I think the chloroform found in the trunk possibly was the result of the decomp. I don't believe Casey is smart enough to make chloroform and even if she was, I don't believe she has the patience to do it. Again, she only thinks 10 minutes ahead at a time and probably making chloroform requires a longer attention span than that.

I think you have KC down to a tee This could of been very possible

 

[txsvicki]

I voted sedatives, chloroform, and final smothering in the trunk of the car. I think there were lots of arguments over money and thefts the previous three months and Casey already had a plan as evidenced by the computer searches. Casey knew she would be caught stealing the grandma's money so she probably already had her plan which would take the focus off her thefts and return her to a victim status with a missing child. Someone will have to prove to me that Casey regularly drugged Caylee or that she only used tape to quiet a crying child. I believe she had it ready to use after drugging a child at snack time around the time George left. I think she drugged her, got her to sleep, used the chloroform and duct tape, put a bag over her head, wrapped her in a sheet or blanket, and put her in the trunk to die. I probably have wishful thinking though in hoping that she at least allowed her child to go to sleep before doing all the rest.

 

[Forensic fan]

I thought it was very interesting that when CA brought up that someone had told her that Caylee was dead, and that Caylee had drowned in the pool (I can't remember the exact words)

KC says "surprise surprise" with a look on her face that I can't quite identify.

I agree, I thought that was very telling when she said that. So if that is what happened, WHY in heck won't anybody say anything??? I would much rather face public embarrassment than sit in prison.

 

[reeseeva]

I thought it was very interesting that when CA brought up that someone had told her that Caylee was dead, and that Caylee had drowned in the pool (I can't remember the exact words)

KC says "surprise surprise" with a look on her face that I can't quite identify.

First impressions of mine, when she said "surprise, surprise" is when someone is telling you, what they think is New information, & your response would be surprise, surprise", a sarcastic remark, to what is already Known!

 

[Forensic fan]

Anyway, this is my first post, hi, and I've rambled longer than I intended to. My point is that I think she's torn between saving herself and wanting her parents, and everyone else, to know what she did, and I base that basically on my interpretation of that one blog post.

:Welcome-12-june: Hi, Welcome if nobody else has yet, that was a good first post.

 

[Indigo]

I agree, I thought that was very telling when she said that. So if that is what happened, WHY in heck won't anybody say anything??? I would much rather face public embarrassment than sit in prison.

ITA. Which would be more shameful, mistakenly leaving a pool ladder up and an accidental drowning OR being convicted of murdering your child and LWOP?

It makes no sense with everything at stake here, that they would not own up to an accident. IMO, that means there was no accident.

 

[Zuckerschnecke]

ITA. Which would be more shameful, mistakenly leaving a pool ladder up and an accidental drowning OR being convicted of murdering your child and LWOP?

It makes no sense with everything at stake here, that they would not own up to an accident. IMO, that means there was no accident.

Completely agree. If it was an accident, what better way to get pity from everyone. This was no accident. Too much points to premeditation although I don't think the plan when the way she wanted it to because it went down quickly after the alleged big fight.

 

[BuffaloPI]

I'm still thinking night of the 15th for time of death - after the big fight.

I think Casey carries screaming Caylee into the car and drives off. Caylee keeps screaming and screaming. Casey screaming back at her to shut up, but Caylee won't. Casy catches sight of the roll of duct tape from the no-clothes party, pulls over and furiously winds the tape around Caylee's mouth and head.

Then I think a strange calm falls over Casey. She reaches back, covers Caylee's nose for a moment, and its done. She romantisizes the new life ahead of her, free of her parents, free of her unwanted daughter, and drives home feeling elated. Just a few more days and she'll be moving in with her new boyfriend, sever ties with her family under the pretext of anger from the argument, and tell the boyfriend Caylee stayed with the family.

The next morning, locked in her room, Casey "talks" to Caylee all morning, and then walks right past GA with a "napping" Caylee in her arms later on. The flurry of calls over the next day or two is her telling her parents she's moving out on her own. She drags Caylee around the backyard a couple of times before finally depositing the bag in her "special place" in the woods nearby. She'll be back for the body later to hide it more thoroughly, once she can scout out a better location.

Just my theory...probably completely wrong! We may never know...

 

[Kat]

I wonder to what KC's "surprise surprise" comment was to? The reference to a drowning? Or a reference to Caylee being dead?

It's been speculated that KC killed Caylee to get back at CA(psychological aspect). IF she was saying to CA "surprise surprise" in response to the Caylee is dead comment, then this young lady is a more hateful person than I have ever encountered myself.

The reason this comment jumped out at me is that it appears to me, that KC likes word play and games (the play and games only making sense in her mind). She likes to think she's smarter and more clever than anyone else? I don't know, just my two cents.

 

[jennyb]

I think the *surprise surprise* comment was her being a wiseass. Oh, someone thinks Caylee drowned in the pool -- people are coming up with "crazy theories" -- they don't have anything else to do (rolling eyes) they need to get a life... LOSERS. Like that.

Sick, sick, sick woman. Sick, sick, sick family.

 

[Rumpole]

There remains 4 broad theories of "What Happened to Caylee":

1. KC killed Caylee following a plan she had (at least partially) planned for some time.

2. Caylee was killed "accidentally" from an overdose/mishap involving sedative/chloroform. That is neither a genuine accident, nor a planned out event.

3. KC was killed as a result of some accident, with KC's lack of care being a magor contributing factor.

4. KC, generally angry about her situation, specifically the flare up with Cindy, killed Caylee in a "spur of the moment" outburst.
__________________
Whichever turns out to be the most correct I find it almost unbelievable that within hours Casey was able to at least appear to be happy and carefree? Whether by her deliberate hand of not, her daughter was DEAD. She had a corpse to deal with, probably in her nearby car.
Evil certainly, but something way beyond that. Outside my universe?

 

[ibyoungr]

I'm still thinking night of the 15th for time of death - after the big fight.

I think Casey carries screaming Caylee into the car and drives off. Caylee keeps screaming and screaming. Casey screaming back at her to shut up, but Caylee won't. Casy catches sight of the roll of duct tape from the no-clothes party, pulls over and furiously winds the tape around Caylee's mouth and head.

Then I think a strange calm falls over Casey. She reaches back, covers Caylee's nose for a moment, and its done. She romantisizes the new life ahead of her, free of her parents, free of her unwanted daughter, and drives home feeling elated. Just a few more days and she'll be moving in with her new boyfriend, sever ties with her family under the pretext of anger from the argument, and tell the boyfriend Caylee stayed with the family.

The next morning, locked in her room, Casey "talks" to Caylee all morning, and then walks right past GA with a "napping" Caylee in her arms later on. The flurry of calls over the next day or two is her telling her parents she's moving out on her own. She drags Caylee around the backyard a couple of times before finally depositing the bag in her "special place" in the woods nearby. She'll be back for the body later to hide it more thoroughly, once she can scout out a better location.

Just my theory...probably completely wrong! We may never know...

What about rigor mortis and the fact that a sleeping Caylee would have been a bit "blue"? Do you know what a dead body might appear to look like after a few hours?