Theory Thread - What happened at Pistorius' house on the night of Feb. 13, 2013?

[Lux et Veritas]

What will Oscar do when he is convicted?

1) Apply for bail and await appeal.

2) Flee.

3) Commit suicide.

4) Commit some “crazy”, outrageous, frightening stunt to get admitted for real to Westkoppies, be declared insane / mentally ill, get treated and “rehabbed”, then quietly get released as “cured” - a free man.

 

[Val1]

His astrological charts reveal configurations identical to all dictators and famous murderers of our time. His eyes (the windows to the soul) often reflect this coldness.
- Plutusplutus youtube

Whether you believe in astrology or not, this observation is fascinating taken in context with certain photos of OP.

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The first thing that came to mind for me viewing these, was how he reminds me of Marlon Brando.

http://ohnotheydidnt.livejournal.com/49089509.html

“I do hope that Bud comes through all this without too much scandal,” she confided to LIFE at one point. “I love him more than anything on this earth, but I never know when I’m going to hear from him in San Quentin.”

http://izquotes.com/author/marlon-brando/

Marlon Brando
“I have eyes like those of a dead pig.”
―Marlon Brando

Marlon Brando
“There's a line in the picture where he snarls, 'Nobody tells me what to do.' That's exactly how I've felt all my life.”
―Marlon Brando

“Too much success can ruin you as surely as too much failure.”
―Marlon Brando

 

[Interested Bystander]

What will Oscar do when he is convicted?

1) Apply for bail and await appeal.

2) Flee.

3) Commit suicide.

4) Commit some “crazy”, outrageous, frightening stunt to get admitted for real to Westkoppies, be declared insane / mentally ill, get treated and “rehabbed”, then quietly get released as “cured” - a free man.

For me it is (1), rapidly changing to (2) at the first sign of any trouble, eg if he thinks an appeal may be thrown out.

I don't believe the suicide comments he is said to have made. I think they were for public consumption before the trial. More than a trace of "look at poor me, see how I am suffering". Then we find he has been away on holiday and seen to be laughing, joking, drinking and dating!

 

[Val1]

I've searched all tweets to no avail ... but then I found that the origin of the info (from my point of view) was Val1 to me on 24 April:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-Discussion-Thread-32&p=10484309#post10484309

Further searching shows it being mentioned on 31 March (again Val1):

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-Discussion-Thread-15&p=10397537#post10397537

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQHJkttCEt8
Starting @1:42:20 is where Roux says what sounds like "I cannot stop him, I cannot stop him", apparently to Oldwage. However, I don't believe this is the comment I had heard, I have a picture in my head where OP asks something to the effect of, can they do that? and Roux responding to the effect of, yes they can, so I'm still searching to see if I can find that bit, although it's looking like it may have been in the same bit as the stipulation of the 5th phone that seemed to have gone missing(Shane you still around?). I'm trying to find exactly when Nel first had all the new data evidence entered as evidence because the comments I recall I believe came with that. I will listen to the videos again...

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Wow, a sudden thought just occurred to me.

OP fired FOUR 9mm shots without ear protection in a small, enclosed space, leaving him temporarily deaf*, as he admits in testimony.

On OP’s version, 5 minutes** elapsed from the time he shot through the door to the time he bashed the door.
On the State’s version, +/- 15 minutes elapsed from the time he bashed the door to when he shot through the door.
Either way, X number of minutes elapsed before he phoned anyone.

How well could he actually HEAR (if at all?) when making those initial three phone calls to Stander, Netcare and Baba?

OP’s phone call to Netcare was 1:06 - but was it really a two-way conversation? He could obviously speak, but if he couldn’t hear, how could he claim that Netcare told him to bring Reeva to the hospital himself? Perhaps that entire 1:06 call was frustrated Netcare not being able to actually communicate with OP to get the info they needed to send an ambulance - hence no ambulance till Stipp called! (How very convenient for OP.)

OP called Netcare and security for the official record, as he knew he had to - but who knows what OP actually said, if anything - maybe he was simply wailing to Netcare like he did with Baba? This would fit perfectly with his stall tactics - he never did call police - he wanted Stander at his house FIRST. OP’s loss of hearing / mis-communication(?) would also neatly cover OP’s claim that Netcare told him to transport Reeva himself.

* What’s the average time to regain normal hearing after explosive gunshots near one’s ears? Remember Darren Fresco testified that when OP shot out the sunroof, he stated “I felt like my

ear was bleeding.” - and that was just one shot.

** FIVE MINUTES - that’s a whole other story in itself, isn’t it?​

​

 

[Interested Bystander]

Wow, a sudden thought just occurred to me.

OP fired FOUR 9mm shots without ear protection in a small, enclosed space, leaving him temporarily deaf*, as he admits in testimony.

On OP’s version, 5 minutes** elapsed from the time he shot through the door to the time he bashed the door.
On the State’s version, +/- 15 minutes elapsed from the time he bashed the door to when he shot through the door.
Either way, X number of minutes elapsed before he phoned anyone.

How well could he actually HEAR (if at all?) when making those initial three phone calls to Stander, Netcare and Baba?

OP’s phone call to Netcare was 1:06 - but was it really a two-way conversation? He could obviously speak, but if he couldn’t hear, how could he claim that Netcare told him to bring Reeva to the hospital himself? Perhaps that entire 1:06 call was frustrated Netcare not being able to actually communicate with OP to get the info they needed to send an ambulance - hence no ambulance till Stipp called! (How very convenient for OP.)

OP called Netcare and security for the official record, as he knew he had to - but who knows what OP actually said, if anything - maybe he was simply wailing to Netcare like he did with Baba? This would fit perfectly with his stall tactics - he never did call police - he wanted Stander at his house FIRST. OP’s loss of hearing / mis-communication(?) would also neatly cover OP’s claim that Netcare told him to transport Reeva himself.

* What’s the average time to regain normal hearing after explosive gunshots near one’s ears? Remember Darren Fresco testified that when OP shot out the sunroof, he stated “I felt like my

ear was bleeding.” - and that was just one shot.

** FIVE MINUTES - that’s a whole other story in itself, isn’t it?​

​

I think there is every likelihood he didn't hear much immediately after the shots but he sure heard enough screaming before, if the ear witnesses are to be believed. He had a two-way conversation with Stander so I don't think the deafness will have been total or for very long, or was the conversation two-way? I cannot quite remember who said what during that phone call but I am off to find some experimental results for hearing loss due to gunshots, if I can!​

 

[Lux et Veritas]

One VERY curious thing on OP’s phone usage log (which Mr Fossil so kindly created ).

Why did OP call Justin Divaris BEFORE his brother Carl?! (He talks to Divaris for 2:03 minutes but to Carl for only :34 seconds.)

I find that extremely odd, if not disturbingly suspicious. Why would he call a good friend before his most trusted family member, his brother (along with Aimee)? To bounce his “story” off him first before he calls his family - the real test? What does Divaris know, if anything, more (or different) than Carl?

 

[Mr Fossil]

One VERY curious thing on OP’s phone usage log (which Mr Fossil so kindly created ).

Why did OP call Justin Divaris BEFORE his brother Carl?! (He talks to Divaris for 2:03 minutes but to Carl for only :34 seconds.)

I find that extremely odd, if not disturbingly suspicious. Why would he call a good friend before his most trusted family member, his brother (along with Aimee)? To bounce his “story” off him first before he calls his family - the real test? What does Divaris know, if anything, more (or different) than Carl?

Carice made the call to Carl on OP's phone at 4:01:38.

Interestingly, Stander says he also phoned Carl at 3:59, just 1-2 minutes before. How did he know Carl's number?

Vodacom's statement verifying Carl's phone usage was also given to the judge in error and then withdrawn, with Nel saying something like "we'll not be using that".

I'll post updated phone usage tables during the week. There's a few corrections (the odd typo) and refinements (eyesight assisted by logic).

 

[kittychi]

What will Oscar do when he is convicted?

1) Apply for bail and await appeal.

2) Flee.

3) Commit suicide.

4) Commit some “crazy”, outrageous, frightening stunt to get admitted for real to Westkoppies, be declared insane / mentally ill, get treated and “rehabbed”, then quietly get released as “cured” - a free man.

I think he believes he will get bail, so I think no. 1. However, he has to weigh this carefully because if he doesn't get bail it will be too late to flee. I wonder if there are machinations in motion right now trying to guarantee that he will get bail. That money can't control everything, can it?

If I were Oscar, I would probably pick #3, but I read somewhere that he said his siblings have been through enough and he wouldn't want to put them through that. (How altruistic of him!)

I would not be surprised however, if he flees to Mozambique, but the family will call it something else, i.e. that he has some severe mental sensitivity and would not survive in prison. They will have a ready excuse.

 

[geevee]

David Dadic @DavidDadic Aug 8
Remember if he's convicted we will be back for a mitigation of sentencing procedure a few weeks later, which could be a couple weeks long too

David Dadic @DavidDadic Aug 8
@peteraok they will apply immediately [for appeal] so that they can extend his bail immediately until its heard.

David Dadic @DavidDadic Aug 8
But if he's acquitted September 11th will mark the last day of this adventure

David Dadic @DavidDadic Aug 7
@ohgeewhiskers @CriminalLawZA there will be a mitigation of sentence hearing with witnesses (mini trial) after which she will give sentence

@ohgeewhiskers Aug 7
@DavidDadic So after verdict it will probably be another few weeks before we know his sentence?

David Dadic @DavidDadic Aug 7
@ohgeewhiskers months probably

Another few weeks of his mewling and puling? Not to mention OP's whiffling and sniffling. Good gravy.

 

[kittychi]

One VERY curious thing on OP’s phone usage log (which Mr Fossil so kindly created ).

Why did OP call Justin Divaris BEFORE his brother Carl?! (He talks to Divaris for 2:03 minutes but to Carl for only :34 seconds.)

I find that extremely odd, if not disturbingly suspicious. Why would he call a good friend before his most trusted family member, his brother (along with Aimee)? To bounce his “story” off him first before he calls his family - the real test? What does Divaris know, if anything, more (or different) than Carl?

I wonder what Divaris knows, too. How rude of Nel not to call him so we can find out.

IIRC, when OP had that nightclub episode recently, wasn't Divaris one of the friends that OP said stabbed him in the back? I believe Divaris was on the Prosecution witness list; there has to be a reason. Since he was such a good friend, it seems Defense would have called him to testify how broken up OP was immediately after the shooting. Kinda like that woman (sorry, I don't remember her name) who volunteered to testify in his favor because she wanted to let people know how upset he really was.

 

[Interested Bystander]

It does seem he was able to hear as he made a number of phone calls. I would have expected some deafness/ringing immediately afterwards but the info I have found seems to suggest that some people suffer from ringing in the ears after a shot indoors and some people are perfectly OK. Now my mind is running overtime. I wonder where he keeps his ear defenders? In the house? Did he collect them on his trip back for his gun? Did he hide them afterwards? At no time have we heard he had lost his hearing. He was communicating with Davaris, Carl, Stander, Carice, Dr Stipps, and Security within minutes.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Carice made the call to Carl on OP's phone at 4:01:38..

Interestingly, Stander says he also phoned Carl at 3:59, just 1-2 minutes before. How did he know Carl's number?

Vodacom's statement verifying Carl's phone usage was also given to the judge in error and then withdrawn, with Nel saying something like "we'll not be using that".

I'll post updated phone usage tables during the week. There's a few corrections (the odd typo) and refinements (eyesight assisted by logic).

Perhaps the Silver Woods HOA agreement requires emergency phone numbers and Stander had Carl's number on file? Or,more likely, OP/Carice simply gave him the number?

Now that you mention Carice, who actually did talk to Divaris and Carl - Carice, OP or both?

Whatever the answer, the fact remains that Divaris was called before Carl.

 

[eimajjjj]

Frustrating read:

http://www.macleans.ca/news/world/will-oscar-pistoriuss-trial-ever-end/

"Even if he’s convicted, Oscar Pistorius could avoid prison"

 

[Interested Bystander]

I think he believes he will get bail, so I think no. 1. However, he has to weigh this carefully because if he doesn't get bail it will be too late to flee. I wonder if there are machinations in motion right now trying to guarantee that he will get bail. That money can't control everything, can it?

If I were Oscar, I would probably pick #3, but I read somewhere that he said his siblings have been through enough and he wouldn't want to put them through that. (How altruistic of him!)

I would not be surprised however, if he flees to Mozambique, but the family will call it something else, i.e. that he has some severe mental sensitivity and would not survive in prison. They will have a ready excuse.

BIB

This is where I think there could be leakage of the proposed outcome and that the Pistorius family may well be able to access it. There is still something about SA that concerns me that the rich look after themselves (and their friends).

 

[Lux et Veritas]

I wonder what Divaris knows, too. How rude of Nel not to call him so we can find out.

IIRC, when OP had that nightclub episode recently, wasn't Divaris one of the friends that OP said stabbed him in the back? I believe Divaris was on the Prosecution witness list; there has to be a reason. Since he was such a good friend, it seems Defense would have called him to testify how broken up OP was immediately after the shooting. Kinda like that woman (sorry, I don't remember her name) who volunteered to testify in his favor because she wanted to let people know how upset he really was.

I don’t know that OP mentioned the “backstabbers” by name (he may have and I just missed it) but it sure is amazing how during this trial OP - an innocent, heroic, vulnerable, wrongfully persecuted victim *sniff* - has managed to suddenly accumulate so many “lying”, “conspiratorial”, “backstabbing” friends - as well as counsel. LOL

I believe the OP groupie-witness was Yvette van Schalkwyk.
Poor star-struck Yvette - being “upset” is no barometer of innocence.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Uncle has extensive business and property in Mozambique and Mozambique has no extradition agreement with SA. It would be just too easy for OP to slip away and remain close to his family who regularly holiday there. One good reason for him, if proven guilty, to be immediately jailed but I really don't see that (imprisonment) happening until after an appeal. If he is found not guilty I see him getting into much more trouble as he will be a pariah and he will find this very difficult to live with; he likely will be shunned by most and subsequently indulge in lots of drink, lots of fights and lots of women.

That's very interesting. Now I definitely consider him a flight risk. Uncle Arnold owns coastal properties in Mozambique. So he could go there and pick up his relationship with the new girlfriend. From what I remember reading, her parents thought he was very nice pre-trial. Not sure how they'd feel if he's found guilty. If I had a daughter who was interested in him, no matter what the verdict is, I think I'd ship her overseas.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Of course I will accept it. The Judge, and the two assessors, have listened carefully throughout and had the benefit of seeing the witnesses first hand in Court. Whatever they say I will 100% accept. And by the way, I'm not saying you are "all wrong". There are people who post and read here who think it was an accident. I'm sure some do not post as often as they would like because of the overwhelming negative reaction such posts seems to provoke from a few individuals who seem to find the idea that OP might be innocent as repulsive.

Do you agree to accept it?

And yes, this is completely about justice for Reeva. Whatever happened it was a horrible way to die. The fact we disagree as to the method shouldn't distract from that.

An accident?

Innocent of what?

The method will always remain the same, black talon bullets tore threw her innards, her brain, nothing will change that fact. I agree, it was a horrible way to die and OP is fully responsible for her death and the way she died. jmo

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I see this situation rather differently. In court they were too anxious and had very worried expressions, especially Aimee. I think they suspect he may not be telling the whole truth. These two will know OP very well and have no doubt witnessed some of his anger. That won't stop them from wanting their brother, by hook or by crook, to be found not guilty. The Pistorius's must never lose - just like OP. I see it in Uncle and his father who, IMO is of a very similar disposition to OP. Although I cannot write about him here, it does not take much effort to find out how he has conducted his life.

I fully agree.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Please Judge Masipa, don't forget about Frank. lease:
He may be considered one of the 'invisible' which I don't understand but please, he was a witness to their relationship, to the ins and outs of who did and said what, he's an important person no matter his station in life. Frank being a no show speaks volumes to me anyway.


While I'm here, another question that is niggling at me, why didn't Reeva call the police? Reeva had the phone, OP was shouting once he entered the passageway to the bathroom, and yelled, "Get the **** out of my house!" twice. Surely, Reeva had enough time to call the police, why wait?

But if she was trying to calm OP down because he was the threat,, it would be very hard to dial the police while trying to appease an enraged lover. JMHO