Theory Thread - What happened at Pistorius' house on the night of Feb. 13, 2013?

[foxbluff]

Botha, who was controversially removed from the case, also claims the high-profile nature of the crime has scared off two potential key witnesses.

Botha claimed that he knew of two people who had changed their minds about talking to police.

“At that stage I had witnesses who I wanted to keep on my side,” Botha said. “There were witnesses I’d heard of that I wanted to get statements from but then they changed their minds.

“It sounds to me like someone spoke to them and they don’t want to get involved.”

And I bet one of these was Frank.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/oscar-pistorius-trial-detective-hilton-1926756

Lordy yes... I'll bet one of them was Frank, too !!

This is only the second article I've ever read where Hilton Botha was interviewed at length. He said some things that I found very interesting. For example, I knew that he was the person who telephoned the Steenkamps that awful morning to tell them Reeva was dead, but I didn't know until now that he used Reeva's cell phone.

<snipped> Telling them Reeva was dead was one of the worst things I&#8217;ve ever had to do during my time in the police.

&#8220;I had Reeva&#8217;s phone and I had to get someone to help me find Reeva&#8217;s pin number so I could use the phone to phone her mum.

&#8220;At first she started crying. She asked me if I was sure, I said yes...." <snipped>

@Mr.Fos and others working on phone charts: I've read a couple of articles where Mrs. Steenkamp was interviewed. In one IIRC she said she received the call at about 7AM. In the other article she said she received the call at 7:30AM.

 

[44ALLAN]

Part of me wonders how a defence team ever manages to defend a guilty client successfully when you're up against a judge and two assessors like this. I could actually understand if one or two of a jury were fooled by Roux's tactics , but legal boffs like Masipa and co. must surely see the games they're playing and what they're up to. To be honest, I thought the tactics employed when you're up against a judge would just be aiming for legal loopholes that they couldn't deny the validity of rather than this sneaky manipulation apt for the layman.

Hi eimajjjj,

I think the easiest way to answer your question is........................they cannot defend a 'guilty client' if the evidence is against him.
OP decided to take the stand and be XD'D and he made a right mess of defending himself and his version of events.
If his version had been true then the defence team would have been able to 'manage to defend' him properly because his demeanor and answers to questions would have come across both credible and truthful.................exactly like we have seen from OP on the stand:facepalm:

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Example of criminal case where initial sentences were increased after appeal.

OP might want to very carefully weigh his options with any potential appeal. LOL

Judges increase rape couple’s sentences
http://www.security.co.za/fullStory.asp?NewsId=16396

 

[foxbluff]

BiB

If I were innocent I would like a Judge to try me. However, if I knew I was guilty I think I would have a better chance of getting off with a jury based trial. There is always a chance that one can sway a jury but a Judge would be a completely different story.

I totally agree with "all of the above" and have been of that opinion for years now.

BBM: Spot on !! OJ imo is the best example ever. O/T - To this day, every time I think about the outcome of that trial my head explores all over again. And to make matters worse, in the last several months, I read where a member of his jury was interviewed and said that during deliberations the subject of DNA never came up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

on/topic again - The outcome of famous-sports-figure OJ's jury trial, is the main reason I'm so relieved that OP's is a Bench trial instead. Phew...

 

[fox1lady]

Just watching Nel cross examining OP again... I can't actually see how this man is not going to be found guilty of murder. The extent that he went to to reach the bathroom with his gun, the balancing, being terrified, stopping and starting, all the flippin' palava of screaming and shouting whilst being fearful for his life and Reeva's. Why The Fook did he not just open the blinkin bedroom door and both of them go through it locking the "intruders" in and then phoning the police?

Because it's all a bloody lie. Masipa should have stopped him right there and said "you're going down you lying piece of scum"!

 

[JudgeJudi]

Several things about the bloody bat have bothered me for months.

- Why did the bat have so much smeared blood on the end - is that how he checked to see if she was alive?

- Did he use it as a weapon at any point (unexplained bruises)?

- After shooting her (still hearing her breaths), did he use it make sure she was dead? (After bashing down the door, he couldn&#8217;t very well shoot her again.)

- See those multiple, very fine blood lines? My immediate thought was the bat touched or ran through HAIR. How did that happen? Fine blood lines are found nowhere else except the toilet lid/seat (someone please correct me if I&#8217;m wrong).

- Is there blood spatter on the floor UNDER the bat? If yes, why was the bat used/repositioned after Reeva was removed?

- If OP only used the (clean) bat to break down the door, then threw it on the bathroom floor near the sinks, why does it have blood on BOTH sides, as described above?

View attachment 58285

View attachment 58286

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View attachment 58288

This issue with the bat has bothered me for a long time too but I'd forgotten about it.

The blood on the side shown in photo 2 is the part that's bothered me the most. That's the side of the bat that's angled towards the centre and tapers down towards the tip. If the bat had been turned over at any point, how did the blood get on the tip because the end of the bat wouldn't have been touching the floor. I can only imagine that for that amount of blood to be on the entire end, it must have been placed on the toilet floor, possibly in one of the large pools, but yet it doesn't look like that. Those pools of blood were huge. Even if he'd thrown it down I don't think it would look like that at all. To me it looks like the end of the bat has been wiped. Contrast the end of the bat with the small but heavy droplets further up. He says he pulled her onto him and dragged her out. The fine lines and droplets of blood could be consistent with that.

Then look at the last photo. There's a large amount of spatter on the floor next to the bat. This may be where he picked her up and the blood dropped from her hair onto the floor and onto the bat. However, none of this can explain to me the appearance of the end of the bat in photo 2.

I think there's more to the story of the bat than we know.

 

[Fuskier]

Tick toc Tick toc Tick toc :jail:

 

[JudgeJudi]

BiB

If I were innocent I would like a Judge to try me. However, if I knew I was guilty I think I would have a better chance of getting off with a jury based trial. There is always a chance that one can sway a jury but a Judge would be a completely different story.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

 

[vansleuths]

Lordy yes... I'll bet one of them was Frank, too !!

This is only the second article I've ever read where Hilton Botha was interviewed at length. He said some things that I found very interesting. For example, I knew that he was the person who telephoned the Steenkamps that awful morning to tell them Reeva was dead, but I didn't know until now that he used Reeva's cell phone.

<snipped> Telling them Reeva was dead was one of the worst things I’ve ever had to do during my time in the police.

“I had Reeva’s phone and I had to get someone to help me find Reeva’s pin number so I could use the phone to phone her mum.

“At first she started crying. She asked me if I was sure, I said yes...." <snipped>

@Mr.Fos and others working on phone charts: I've read a couple of articles where Mrs. Steenkamp was interviewed. In one IIRC she said she received the call at about 7AM. In the other article she said she received the call at 7:30AM.

BIB

I'm sure an officer informing a family member that one of their loved ones has passed away is very difficult, but I wonder why Botha said that in this case this was one of the "worst things I’ve ever had to do during my time in the police."

 

[vansleuths]

EXCELLENT list, 4MrsB!!

Looking forward to your other Baker's Half!

Roux has valiantly been trying to roll a massive boulder uphill since Day 1 - but his stupid, out-of-control client keeps tripping him up by zipping 'round and 'round, maniacally wailing and puking and lying and blaming and endlessly changing the "version"! LOL

(I wonder how many times Roux has seriously wanted to punch OP out? :lol: )

The State's case is overwhelming.

If My Lady and her assessors are as sharp as everyone here at WS (and they have full access to all the evidence!), there's no way OP will walk free.

BIB I do hope your right on this. The evidence does feel overwhelming, I just hope this doesn't turn out to be another case of the rich buying their way out of justice.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

"The defence, in their heads of argument... doesn't once discuss the accused's version. "I don't blame them, I would have followed the same action myself... The defence has not put forward one version that could possibly be true".

[The prosecutor] pointed out that [the defendant] regularly changed his version of events - generally after a weekend or when returning to court after a break.

This, he said, indicated the level of briefing he was receiving.


Sound familiar? LOL

Yes, this is our dear Gerrie Nel in 2010, speaking about corruption defendant, notorious Jackie Selebi (ex-National Commissioner of SAPS and ex-President of INTERPOL).

Nel won the case. Selebi was convicted and sentenced to 15 years in prison.

I&#8217;d say Oscar Pistorius is in a world of hurt.

http://www.security.co.za/fullStory.asp?NewsId=16333

 

[JudgeJudi]

Published on 15 May 2013

“Is Pistorius a murderer? A long new Vanity Fair (link at very bottom of post) piece fills in a lot of details about the saga and its major figures, but doesn’t come all that close to answering that question. The story, by the excellent Mark Seal, is not kind to Pistorius. The athlete is depicted as an aggressive narcissist addicted to caffeine pills and energy drinks, a thrill-seeking womanizer who let fame go to his head and used foul language around children while training at the gym. After the London Olympics and all the attendant publicity, Seal reports, his behaviour only got worse:

“He was bragging about his adventures in the good life,” a former confidant told me. “He was like, ‘I’m the man, I’m Oscar. The world owes me.’ That sense of entitlement. He wasn’t like that; he was made into that.” His friends, the confidant continued, changed from “the good old lads” to “the Southern Jo’burg tattooed skinhead-gang type. He surrounded himself with people who used violence and rage as an outlet for whatever you feel. God forbid, I didn’t see it going to this point. But I knew something was going to crack.” Even Gianni Merlo, the Italian journalist who helped Pistorius write his autobiography, wondered, “Have we unwittingly cultivated a monster?”

http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/20...ty_fair_story_shows_that_oscar_pistorius.html


The Vanity Fair article published in June 2013 outlines in chronological order many of the stories we’ve heard and is worth reading.

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2013/06/oscar-pistorius-murder

 

[vansleuths]

LOL...actually vansleuths, I do have my own "baker's dozen" list. For fun (since you mentioned it, haha) I will post "1/2 my baker's dozen" list. Might be fun for others to share their's as well (hard to leave 1/2 off, but I don't want to hog too much room on the board)

I would welcome other's here on the board to share THEIR "1/2 Baker's Dozen", top 5-6 points/elements they would want to draw Judge Masipa's attention to during closing (H of A).

MrsB's "1/2 Baker's Dozen": (items I believe Judge Masipa needs to give great weight to)

1. Oscar fired 4 gun shots (using black talon bullets, for max damage) into a closed bathroom door, aware there was a person inside (knowing area behind door quite small). This is fact. Prior to firing the 4 shots, OP did NOT ask intruder to identify them self or warn intruder he had gun pointed at door & would fire if exited. Nothing, just fired until coincidently, screaming stopped. Not 1 shot, due to startle. Not 6 shots until gun emptied. Exactly 4 shots that stopped at exactly same time woman's horrifying screams stopped (collaborated by testimony of 4 diff witnesses).

2. OP did not 1st call 911/ambulance or medical assistance. Instead, he 1st called a friend, "Oom" (Uncle) Stander. His reason for this - he needed help getting her to hospital. He hasn't called NetCare yet, so he didn't know yet (according to his version) that they would suggest taking her to hospital in his car & not wait for emergency help. Why would OP think "moving Reeva" was his No. 1 priority? Wouldn't your immediate thought be to notify emergency services for ambulance/911 & seeking aid over phone? Wouldn't they assist him in trying CPR measures until ambulance personnel arrived? (They certainly would not be telling him to stick his finger in her mouth)

3. OP NEVER warned Reeva there was an intruder, or why she was to call police. When he screamed at her the 2nd time to call police, wouldn't he have instead asked/screamed IF she called? IF she reached police? Were they on their way? ...something like that? (Why would he think she wouldn't have called amist all this drama & shouting "get the f out of my house"). OP's omission that he warned Reeva there was an intruder in bathroom (to better protector her from the situation unfolding) or say something as to why he was instructing her in low/whispering voice - "call the police" is a very telling omission. And not addressing her the 2nd time as if he assumed she'd called - asking "are they on their way? "Did you reach them?" etc, is more reasonable. I feel this "odd" dialogue with Reeva is very telling and one Nel should have emphasized with judge.

4. OP never looked out bathroom window. The window he claimed his eyes darted back & forth between toilet door/window. Never looked to see if intruder hiding out of sight below window ledge or additional intruder perched out there. Not even after firing shots into toilet door. Why? He was only a few steps away. Wouldn't he want to be certain intruder hadn't climbed back out window, slamming door only as a trick. Perhaps ready to pop up his head & begin firing at OP? I don't believe anyone so certain that intruder entered home through bathroom window, would not at some point look out that window 2ft away. See the ladder to confirm all that was transpiring was so.

5. Oscar said he retrieved Reeva's phone from toilet area. If this is true, why wasn't there a call placed to 911/security/police? If so scared she locked herself inside toilet, why wouldn't she use phone to call police like Oscar screamed for her to do? She certainly had time, since he started screaming at hallway entrance - long before he fired the 4 shots. Wouldn't this be her #1 priority to help both her & Oscar?

6. Lights already on during "blood curdling" screams from woman. Testified to by both Mr & Mrs Stipp. Immediately after hearing 1st bang, looked out towards direction of noise & noticed OP's bathroom lights were on. This is in direct contrast to what OP claims & completely destroys his version entirely.

The above points are very telling, each independently on their own. Together they destroy any validity to OP's claims of what took place that morning.

Oh no...I left off points about "woman's scream" & "people arguing". Oh, and eating within 2 hrs of her death. "1/2 Baker's Dozen" is hard!!!!

Thanks for sharing. My half bakers dozen would include:

1. Professor Saayman's testimony that Reeva ate 2 hours before she died. This matches up to other witness testimony regarding arguments at 1AM

2. OP was a gun enthusiast and should have known that it was improper to shoot at a closed door.

3. For OP's story to be true, we have to disregard witnesses who heard a woman scream and believe that police tampered the scene in such a way that it pointed the finger at one of SA's beloved heroes.

4. Captain Mangena spoke about a pause between the first and second shot which coincides with Ms Burger's testimony.

5. OP has multiple defences of automatism and punitive private self defence and these are mutually exclusive.

6. Reeva's jeans were found on top of the duvet with a line of blood

Had to add three bonus ones

A. OP fired because he said he heard wood moving which was the magazine rack. It was impossible for Reeva to be at the back of the WC to cause the magazine rack to move and then be at the front of the WC near the door where she sustained the hip wound with splinters.

B. OP said that the magazine rack was on the far side of the WC, away from the toilet and that there was tampering with the scene. Both his defence witnesses, Wolmaran and Dixon contradicted him by saying that the magazine rack feet marks in the pool of blood confirm that it was located near the toilet and not where OP said it was.

C. Roux went after Dr. Stipp with veracity in the HOA saying that Dr Stipp &#8220;desperately wanted to assist the state&#8221;. To me, it seems like Dr. Stipp desperately wanted to help Pistorius, leaving the safety of his family to a location where there was gun fire, then trying to help a mortally wounded woman, only to be belittled by OP who said Stipp was "overwhelmed" and by Roux who tried to take him down in the HOA. I don't see any evidence where Stipp wanted to help the state and I believe that his evidence is so damaging for Pistorius that Roux had to try and address this.

 

[JudgeJudi]

“Expert” witness, Roger Dixon, degrees in geology (and rocks in the head too) and chemistry was being cross-examined by Nel re the music producer who electronically produced the recording of the rapid firing of shots. Masipa interrupted ...

N: I’m going to be rude because you don’t listen.
M: Mr Nel, …
N: The question was is he an expert?
M: … Mr Nel, Mr Nel …
N: … Yes My Lady?
M: Please restrain yourself (said with a smile on her face).

16 April, Session 2 at 27.50

One of those nice little moments you remember.

 

[vansleuths]

&#8220;Expert&#8221; witness, Roger Dixon, degrees in geology (and rocks in the head too) and chemistry was being cross-examined by Nel re the music producer who electronically produced the recording of the rapid firing of shots. Masipa interrupted ...

N: I&#8217;m going to be rude because you don&#8217;t listen.
M: Mr Nel, &#8230;
N: The question was is he an expert?
M: &#8230; Mr Nel, Mr Nel &#8230;
N: &#8230; Yes My Lady?
M: Please restrain yourself (said with a smile on her face).

16 April, Session 2 at 27.50

One of those nice little moments you remember.

I shake my head just thinking about Dixon's testimony but I shake my head even more thinking that Roux felt this person would be value added to the defence team. It would have been better not to have him. I'm sure Roux must be wishing there was a way to get a mistrial so that he could have a redo.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Oscar's staging ...............

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/forensics-profiling-the-perpetrator.html

Profiling also plays an important role in determining whether a crime scene is staged. Staging means changing the appearance of the scene so that it looks like the murder took place in a different manner and for a different reason. A classic example: the husband who kills his wife in a fit of anger, then empties drawers and closets, knocks over furniture, and breaks a door lock or window to make it appear as though a burglar committed the crime. When investigators discover that the wife was severely bludgeoned and stabbed 20 times, the light of suspicion falls on the husband. A burglar wouldn't engage in such overkill, preferring instead to kill and run. Overkill usually is personal, with anger as the common underlying drive.

 

[Mr Fossil]

Lordy yes... I'll bet one of them was Frank, too !!

This is only the second article I've ever read where Hilton Botha was interviewed at length. He said some things that I found very interesting. For example, I knew that he was the person who telephoned the Steenkamps that awful morning to tell them Reeva was dead, but I didn't know until now that he used Reeva's cell phone.

<snipped> Telling them Reeva was dead was one of the worst things I’ve ever had to do during my time in the police.

“I had Reeva’s phone and I had to get someone to help me find Reeva’s pin number so I could use the phone to phone her mum.

“At first she started crying. She asked me if I was sure, I said yes...." <snipped>

@Mr.Fos and others working on phone charts: I've read a couple of articles where Mrs. Steenkamp was interviewed. In one IIRC she said she received the call at about 7AM. In the other article she said she received the call at 7:30AM.

Interesting. Reeva's 5353 phone wasn't handed to Moller until 15 Feb. He has the software to retrieve the Passcode and Contact list etc. from the phone. In the first newspaper report I came across, June Steenkamp says she was called at 5am by Botha. The article goes on to say she then phoned her husband who was out collecting firewood. That's early! I'll research this further.

Botha certainly didn't call from Reeva's phone before 8am because there's no record of the call in Moller's phone usage chart (unless this was removed). And I doubt the police would have had the software on site to extract the Passcode at that time. Also, I'm not sure it would be correct protocol to be using the evidence to actually make the call (I can understand accessing the Contacts list).

It's clear Botha did call June. It would have been early morning. He would have needed their phone number and he did have Reeva's phone which was locked with a Passcode. I'll come back to you on this.

 

[JudgeJudi]

I shake my head just thinking about Dixon's testimony but I shake my head even more thinking that Roux felt this person would be value added to the defence team. It would have been better not to have him. I'm sure Roux must be wishing there was a way to get a mistrial so that he could have a redo.

It was pure agony to sit and listen to him. He just went on foreeeeeeeeever. Then there were the long pauses while he considered how best to answer, and all the hand movements. He absolutely drove me nuts.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Interesting. Reeva's 5353 phone wasn't handed to Moller until 15 Feb. He has the software to retrieve the Passcode and Contact list etc. from the phone. In the first newspaper report I came across, June Steenkamp says she was called at 5am by Botha. The article goes on to say she then phoned her husband who was out collecting firewood. At 5am?! I'll research this further.

Botha certainly didn't call from Reeva's phone before 8am because there's no record of the call in Moller's phone usage chart (unless this was removed). And I doubt the police would have had the software on site to extract the Passcode at that time. Also, I'm not sure it would be correct protocol to be using the evidence to actually make the call (I can understand accessing the Contacts list).

It's clear Botha did call June. It would have been early morning. He would have needed their phone number and he did have Reeva's phone which was locked with a Passcode. I'll come back to you on this.

Speaking to a national newspaper this week, June said: &#8220;I remember the 5am phone call from Inspector Botha.
&#8220;He was the detective in charge of the case. He asked me if I had a daughter, and what was her name.

&#8220;He said that there had been an accident and someone had been shot, my Reeva was dead.&#8221;

June said she rang her husband, Barry, who was out collecting fire wood.

She said: &#8220;I was crying and screaming over the phone and he couldn&#8217;t take in what I was trying to tell him. Since that moment all the joy has gone out of our lives.&#8221;

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.u..._left__heartbroken__by_Reeva_s_death/?ref=rss

 

[vansleuths]

It was pure agony to sit and listen to him. He just went on foreeeeeeeeever. Then there were the long pauses while he considered how best to answer, and all the hand movements. He absolutely drove me nuts.

I think my favorite Roger Dixon meme was this one