Theory Thread - What happened at Pistorius' house on the night of Feb. 13, 2013?

[DebinGA]

So when he yells he sounds like a woman, but when he screams he doesn't?

When Samantha Taylor described OP "screaming" at her, her sister, her friend, and OP's friend, I imagine loud, shrill, angry yelling, not what I think of as screaming in terror or horror. So, in the argument Ms. Merwe heard, I can more easily see OP yelling at Reeva, while she remains quiet, rather than the reverse.

 

[Murphys_Law]

Maybe just me but I can't see a pellet going through a garment and still leaving an imprint of the garment weave. In my mind the pellet hit with just enough energy along with a bit of heat to stamp that pattern into the skin. I would be more inclined to check the garment in that area of the back for lead compound or gun oil residue.

We are in complete agreement. That hole that I marked on the shirt is imo not related to the bruise spoken of earlier. If a projectile perforates the material there is no material to imprint/stamp on the skin.

 

[Karmady]

When Samantha Taylor described OP "screaming" at her, her sister, her friend, and OP's friend, I imagine loud, shrill, angry yelling, not what I think of as screaming in terror or horror. So, in the argument Ms. Merwe heard, I can more easily see OP yelling at Reeva, while she remains quiet, rather than the reverse.

I think we missed each other there. There was yelling, supposedly by a woman, earlier in the evening for about an hour. Then there was the shooting, during the general time frame of which, witnesses say they heard a woman screaming frantically, blood-curdlingly. People do not believe that the frantic, blood-curdling woman sounding screams were Oscar. Your post suggests, though, that the earlier "woman yelling" in an argument sounds were likely him not her. Hence my, comment. It's unlikely that he sounds like a woman when yelling but not when screaming.

 

[Murphys_Law]

Yeah, that's true. I've zoomed in on that pic and it's so odd that those little hairs aren't disturbed.

Does anyone know what way the bedroom doors open?

Could that mark be from the bedroom door handle?

Leaning up against the bedroom door handle trying to keep OP out?

The doors open into the bedroom.
There is at least one 4.5mm hole thru the bedroom door that appears to exit on the TV room side.
I don't think the door handle is a likely source, again due to its size and shape. The bruise in question is about .5cm wide, and 1.2 to 1.5cm long, with a distinctly roundish impact point. The direction of the force is clear from the stretched skin.

 

[Cymbaline]

The doors open into the TV room.
There is at least one 4.5mm hole thru the bedroom door that appears to exit on the TV room side.
I don't think the door handle is a likely source, again due to its size and shape. The bruise in question is about .5cm wide, and 1.2 to 1.5cm long, with a distinctly roundish impact point. The direction of the force is clear from the stretched skin.

Do you have a picture of the bedroom door handle? Is it the same handle as the bathroom door's handle? To open the bathroom room door, the handle would be turned and vertical. The same direction as the marks on her back/spine area.

The reason I asked about the bedroom doors is because the bathroom door opens out.

I don't know maybe OP had her locked inside the bathroom and she was trying to force the door open by putting her feet against the wall, using the wall as leverage with her back against the door/door handle.

JMO

 

[Murphys_Law]

Do you have a picture of the bedroom door handle? Is it the same handle as the bathroom door's handle? To open the bathroom room door, the handle would be turned and vertical. The same direction as the marks on her back/spine area.

The reason I asked about the bedroom doors is because the bathroom door opens out.

I don't know maybe OP had her locked inside the bathroom and she was trying to force the door open by putting her feet against the wall, using the wall as leverage with her back against the door/door handle.

JMO

I have to apologize Cymbaline - I mistakenly said the bedroom doors open into the TV room when it is clearly into the bedroom. I fixed my post above.

Your theory is possible I suppose if the shape, and sizing was in the order of .5 cm wide.

Unfortunately, I don't have a photo of the bedroom door handle.

 

[liesbeth]

Can someone explain why it matters where the magazine rack was and whether Reeva was on top of it or in front of it? TIA

I think it has to do with timing. The shots, Reeva's position. Her screams.

Mangena: Shot..pause..missed shot..shot..shot
Oscar: Shot..shot..shot..shot

Mangena's shot 2 (the miss, bullet hole B) together with the pause gives her time to fall onto the magazine rack. Time for her body to pitch forward. And time to protect her head with her hands. And time to scream. Not necessarily in that order.

So the defense has to give a version where she had no time to cover her head or to scream or to pitch forward.

(Edit: So the defense team has her falling during the four shots. No time to protect herself. No time to scream. And no time to pitch forward. According to Mangena the magazine rack would have stopped her fall. And if she was seated on the rack her body must bend forward to line up her head with the bullet and the mark on the wall. This takes time. So the defense says look at the marks on her back, she missed the rack, she didn't have time to pitch forward and she was on the floor. Ergo no time to scream. So if she was on the floor, they now need the higher hole B to be the one that hit her in the head.)

They have two problems though, they never put it to Mangena that B was not the bullet that missed. Because they were going for double tap at the time. And the second problem: bullet hole B, from the position OP says he was when he shot, is the only hole that lines up laser perfect with the ricochet mark on the wall.

 

[Cymbaline]

Any thoughts on the "broken" toilet room light?

I don't think it was really broken at the time of the shooting and it needs to be dark for his defense to work. I think OP disabled that light in someway after he shot her.


JMO

 

[Noisy Fan]

Theory on the striations on the back wound:

Here's a side by side comparison of the wound pattern and the shirt pattern.

I'm not seeing the shirt as the cause of those marks, but it's hard for me to visualize the wood making that pattern either and I haven't seen a close up of the wood grain.

So Mangena says that would was caused by a ricochet fragment (tile fragment or bullet fragment?) and Botha says the wound was caused by the magazine rack? Or is he just saying the pattern was caused by the magazine rack?

This is so aggravating because it seems like with all these experts there ought to be someone who can give an opinion about what kind of wound that is and its etiology - to my very untrained eye it almost looks like a blood blister.

And TBH, I still do not really understand why this matters or how it affects either side's version.

Well, if he shot her with a pellet rifle through the bedroom door, I could see it supporting one version ... probably not both unless there is a major revision coming.

First we have to look at a 4.5mm sample of the cloth and count the ridges and see if the number of ridges matches the ridges on the wound (allowing for a bit of stretch). Also any imprint would be the way the pattern is on the inside of the garment. The photo is of the outside. So, see how there are two ridges with a bigger space between them. I think that is a common singlet pattern, made to stretch. I considered this and it seems there could be a match as far as the number and spacing of the ridges is concerned. Anyone have a stretchy singlet? Turn it inside out and check the pattern under a magnifier.

Dixon suggested the pattern was in the wood of the magazine rack. The others I think said it was the pattern of the fabric, one by falling on the magazine rack and the other by a ricochet.

I agree they did not deal with this in a proper manner. I would not appreciate it if I was the judge in this matter. If there is no connection between the pellet rifle, the bedroom door and the striated wound then I would want that dealt with in a very clear manner.

In a sense, part of it is similar to a blood blister. Tissue looks saturated with blood. The impact tore the skin a little and you can see the trauma ahead of the impact indicating it was more than just a fall. The circular 4.5mm striated impact points me to at least consider a 4.5mm pellet.

 

[minor4th]

Well, if he shot her with a pellet rifle through the bedroom door, I could see it supporting one version ... probably not both unless there is a major revision coming.

First we have to look at a 4.5mm sample of the cloth and count the ridges and see if the number of ridges matches the ridges on the wound (allowing for a bit of stretch). Also any imprint would be the way the pattern is on the inside of the garment. The photo is of the outside. So, see how there are two ridges with a bigger space between them. I think that is a common singlet pattern, made to stretch. I considered this and it seems there could be a match as far as the number and spacing of the ridges is concerned. Anyone have a stretchy singlet? Turn it inside out and check the pattern under a magnifier.

Dixon suggested the pattern was in the wood of the magazine rack. The others I think said it was the pattern of the fabric, one by falling on the magazine rack and the other by a ricochet.

I agree they did not deal with this in an in proper manner. I would not appreciate it if I was the judge in this matter. If there is no connection between the pellet rifle, the bedroom door and the striated wound then I would want that dealt with in a very clear manner.

In a sense, part of it is similar to a blood blister. Tissue looks saturated with blood. The impact tore the skin a little and you can see the trauma ahead of the impact indicating it was more than just a fall. The circular 4.5mm striated impact points me to at least consider a 4.5mm pellet.

The hole through the door was at eye level and was from outside the bedroom through the door and exiting on the bedroom side.

I don't think there are pellet wounds - they surely would have been identified by Mangena or one of the pathologists if that was a possibility - don't you think?

 

[Noisy Fan]

The hole through the door was at eye level and was from outside the bedroom through the door and exiting on the bedroom side.

I don't think there are pellet wounds - they surely would have been identified by Mangena or one of the pathologists if that was a possibility - don't you think?

I am exploring areas where I am not happy with evidence given so far. Trying to resolve questions I have.

Thanks, that is a help.

The shot was from the tv room into the bedroom through the door?

Do you have a reference for the height of the pellet hole in the bedroom door?

 

[liesbeth]

interesting, on the image of the shirt that lisa posted [attached], there does appear to be a hole at the back. ref: the white area through the largest front hole.

My sincere apologies if I misunderstood. But are you saying the picture is from the back of Reeva's shirt?

Because the picture in your post is of the front Reeva's shirt. The white specks are bone fragments. The bullet amputated her arm. Fragments went through her arm and hit her on the chest. There are tissue, pieces of bone and holes in the shirt where the bullet fragments tore through the shirt.

 

[nastasya]

That may well be true. All we know for a fact is that she did not call or text anyone to tell them that she and Oscar were having a row. Could it be because they were having a row and Oscar had her captive and would not allow here to use a phone. It could be.

But here is where I have a problem with a lot of theories being turned into Theories, it seems when the simple explanation is to the benefit of Oscars version, then the simple explanation is dismissed, but when the simple explanation seems to go against Oscars version of events it is deemed the only explanation possible.

Which of the killer's versions are you referring to? The one where he went on the deck and that's when Reeva went to the bathroom or the one where he never went to the deck?

The one where he searched for her beside the bed with his hands or the one where he just walked over where her body might be?

The one where he intentionally shot at an "intruder" or the one where he didn't intend to shoot the gun?

 

[Cymbaline]

I grew up with air rifles and am familiar with how 177 caliber (4.5mm) pellets go through doors, walls, clothing, garage windows etc. I have seen the more powerful ones go through half inch plywood. So, to invision one going through a door and having enough energy to cause that wound works for me. Most are in the 700 to 800 fps range with the most powerful at 1200 fps ... very close in energy to the common 22 caliber rim-fire cartridge.

To answer your question about Reeva being hit from a distance ... at any distance in the house if she was hit by a fully energized pellet, the pellet would have caused a much more significant wound. They would be finding the pellet embedded in the muscle of her back or in her right lung if it was a closer shot and didn't hit bone.

Is it possible to shoot an air rifle without it being loaded? To just shoot it to scare someone?

 

[nastasya]

I think the idea of Reeva planning on leaving that morning at 2 or 3 am is not a very reasonable scenario. She didn’t call or text anyone to say she was leaving, she didn’t even text anyone with any indication that her and Oscar where having so much as a disagreement. There is no way IMO that she would leave the safety of Oscar’s home or a gated community and put herself on the roads of SA at 2 or 3am. She herself was aware of the dangers of SA and she herself relieved some of her stress by shooting at a gun range.

If OP was having a tantrum and threatening her why would you think his home was safe?

Obviously it wasn't.

 

[lisasalinger]

Do you have a picture of the bedroom door handle? Is it the same handle as the bathroom door's handle? To open the bathroom room door, the handle would be turned and vertical. The same direction as the marks on her back/spine area.

The reason I asked about the bedroom doors is because the bathroom door opens out.

I don't know maybe OP had her locked inside the bathroom and she was trying to force the door open by putting her feet against the wall, using the wall as leverage with her back against the door/door handle.

JMO

Yes, I do believe that they are similar door handles. The pic on the left is the bedroom door and the pic on the right is the toilet door.

Respectfully, your thoughts about her leaning with her back against the toilet door handle while she was locked in there don't really seem possible. She was facing the door when she was shot. Plus, the bruises on her back are higher up than that. CORRECTION: actually, the bruises are not that much further up. But another thought, the handle is smooth. She would not have had that weird striation from the door handle, IMO.

 

[lisasalinger]

I think it has to do with timing. The shots, Reeva's position. Her screams.

Mangena: Shot..pause..missed shot..shot..shot
Oscar: Shot..shot..shot..shot

Mangena's shot 2 (the miss, bullet hole B) together with the pause gives her time to fall onto the magazine rack. Time for her body to pitch forward. And time to protect her head with her hands. And time to scream. Not necessarily in that order.

So the defense has to give a version where she had no time to cover her head or to scream or to pitch forward.

(Edit: So the defense team has her falling during the four shots. No time to protect herself. No time to scream. And no time to pitch forward. According to Mangena the magazine rack would have stopped her fall. And if she was seated on the rack her body must bend forward to line up her head with the bullet and the mark on the wall. This takes time. So the defense says look at the marks on her back, she missed the rack, she didn't have time to pitch forward and she was on the floor. Ergo no time to scream. So if she was on the floor, they now need the higher hole B to be the one that hit her in the head.)

They have two problems though, they never put it to Mangena that B was not the bullet that missed. Because they were going for double tap at the time. And the second problem: bullet hole B, from the position OP says he was when he shot, is the only hole that lines up laser perfect with the ricochet mark on the wall.

BBM in red.... You are spot on!! This is exactly what they are trying to accomplish... and it failed miserably.

There can be no dispute that Reeva's head was toilet level when shot because of the broken hair and brain matter on the toilet lid. sorry
There's just no way around that physical fact.

And using the bullet hole in the door as a guide, she had to be sitting on top of the magazine rack in order for the height to work.

The magazine rack is very important because of this and once again... it was PROVEN that Oscar lied about the position of the rack. OP needed her to be on the floor because of exactly what Liesbeth said above. But the ballistics do not work out.

If her head had been shot while in mid-fall, like the Defense is asserting through their "expert" Dixon, then there would have been blood spray and brain matter higher up on the bathroom walls. And there is not.

 

[lisasalinger]

Any thoughts on the "broken" toilet room light?

I don't think it was really broken at the time of the shooting and it needs to be dark for his defense to work. I think OP disabled that light in someway after he shot her.


JMO

I think it was legitimately broken.

There is no indication of a broken bulb/glass shards, that would have been included in photos and forensics. Nor was there mention of a missing bulb in that fixture. Nor were there blood stains disturbed in the toilet room. So no, Oscar did not go in there and tamper with the light

Here's what I think... It actually is bad for Oscar to have that light be broken. Reeva locked herself in that room while it was dark at 3am, according to him, just to pee.

Since Reeva had been to his house the night before and on other nights, she likely knew that light in the toilet didn't work. Therefore, she would most definitely keep the toilet room door open when peeing at night.

SO... Oscar has a few problems. First, Reeva has locked herself in to a dark tiny toilet room in the middle of the night. Why? Second, the neighbors heard a woman frantically screaming. Why would she be screaming?

Therefore, he added in to his testimony on the stand that HE was screaming at the intruder to "get the f out" (in a high girly pitch) and also screaming to Reeva to call the police AND during this timeframe before entering the bathroom, he also heard the door slam shut.

His theory was that Reeva was in there peeing with the door open, heard him screaming in the passageway, slammed the door shut and locked herself in the toilet room out of fear. It helps to explain why she was in there locked away, and also gives an explanation for some of the screams heard that night.

It's really amazing looking at all of the road blocks Oscar put in front of himself with his seemingly simple intruder story. His only hope is to wiggle his way out of his terribly improbable scenarios with more and more and more details that clearly were never discussed with his Defense.

Long story short, the toilet room light was always broken.

 

[lisasalinger]

DebinGA, I do not recall them discussing pellets at all, certainly not during the evidence in chief... he was carefully being led by Nel. Mangena had a 54 page report and only a portion of it was discussed. Nel was careful to restrict Mangena on what bruise he was to show in the back bruise discussion.
Nel also constrained him from talking about all of Paragraph 18, the section that detailed all of his opinions and conclusions. Nel limited him to just subparagraph 18.1...

Mangena: My Lady, in paragraph 18.1, my opinion was that 4 shots were fired at the crime scene and all 4 bullets perforated the toilette door into the toilette cubicle.

Interestingly, Nel responds immediately with:
"And one hit someone"
Wow- was that a slip of the tongue or is there more come.?

Mangena, then goes on to talk about holes A, B, C, D A, the wounds, and the probable body positions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A31z0aNCNHs



QUESTION: What's in the remaining subparagraphs of paragraph 18?

--------
Re: Mangena rejecting the idea that OP was on his prosthetics
IMO, Mangena and Nel were setting a trap for the defence, and they fell right into it. What Mangena and Nel did for illustrative purposes, was to purposely set the laser (simulating a muzzle) at distance 220cm from the door and at a height of 130cm... OP's shoulder height without his prosthetics is only 123 cm, so if he was on his stumps he would have to be much closer (say muzzle at 160cm or less from the door). It starts to look very much like an execution at that distance. Thus the panicked, and numeracy impaired Roux started talking about primary residue his team found further away near the wall ... 3 meters away. Anywhere beyond 2.2m, OP had to be on his prosthesis or on a ladder.

Anyway Deb, I always enjoy your thoughtful and intelligent posts, we just have slightly different views on this one.

BBM in red...

I've been meaning to ask you on this... I know you found that part odd, but what are your thoughts on it? I'd love to hear.

I just re-listened to Dr. Stipp's direct and cross-exam tonight. The argument that takes place between Nel and Roux during Stipp's cross is so interesting to me. Nel just will not give up his theory on the first set of bangs. I did not get the impression it was because he doesn't know what they were... I got the impression that he has thoughts on it and just did not want to say. I certainly could be wrong, just my impression.

 

[Cymbaline]

I think it was legitimately broken.

There is no indication of a broken bulb/glass shards, that would have been included in photos and forensics. Nor was there mention of a missing bulb in that fixture. Nor were there blood stains disturbed in the toilet room. So no, Oscar did not go in there and tamper with the light

Here's what I think... It actually is bad for Oscar to have that light be broken. Reeva locked herself in that room while it was dark at 3am, according to him, just to pee.

Since Reeva had been to his house the night before and on other nights, she likely knew that light in the toilet didn't work. Therefore, she would most definitely keep the toilet room door open when peeing at night.

SO... Oscar has a few problems. First, Reeva has locked herself in to a dark tiny toilet room in the middle of the night. Why? Second, the neighbors heard a woman frantically screaming. Why would she be screaming?

Therefore, he added in to his testimony on the stand that HE was screaming at the intruder to get "get the f out" and also screaming to Reeva to call the police AND during this timeframe before entering the bathroom, he heard the door slam shut.

His theory was that Reeva was in there peeing with the door open, heard him screaming in the passageway and locked herself in the toilet room out of fear. It helps to explain why she was in there locked away, and also gives an explanation for some of the screams heard that night.

It's really amazing looking at all of the road blocks Oscar has in front of him with his intruder story, and how he tries to wiggle out of all of them.

Long story short, the toilet room light was always broken.

I remember hearing testimony (and I can't remember who testified) that the bathroom/toilet lights are all connected to one switch. So, when you turn the "bathroom" lights on... the "toilet" light is on. I looked through all the pictures and can't locate a light switch inside the toilet.

Do you have any memory of that testimony about the lights all being controlled by one switch?


JMO