Tim Bosma: Dellen Millard & Mark Smich chgd w/Murder; Christina Noudga, Accessory

[SnooperDuper]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...had-relationship-with-bosma-accused-1.1399734

"Carbone said Babcock was known to be involved in the sex-trade business as an internet escort for several months prior to her disappearance, but he added that, as far as he knew, Millard was not involved in the sex-trade business."

That quote comes from so early in the investigation, less than a month after TB's murder, that I would not at all be surprised if LE subsequently found information to indicate DM was in fact involved in LB's sex trade activities, if only to take the cash she earned from prostitution and exchange it for drugs.

In other words, that's not convincing proof that DM was not involved in prostitution. (Which is apparently legal anyway.)

Also, The quote was not that it was one of the the biggest data seizures, but one of the biggest computer seizures, I don't think that you have to be a computer expert to know that there is a difference between an actual computer and data stored on a disk or thumbdrive. So if it was actually one of the biggest data seizures (again, hard to believe in this day and age, when other busts in computer crimes mine insane amounts of data), then it was a misquote or misspoken, which is what I have been wondering all along.

This case probably does not involve the most data, or the most devices, but may involve the most electronic device or activity related warrants/production orders (and therefore seizures). Lots of opportunity for DP to get stuff tossed out, as there will have been warrant after warrant filed.

Any references on what constitutes the previous largest data seizures in Ontario criminal history, then, if we can't find what constitutes the largest computer seizures?

I don't think that will be relevant. I think this case will be outstanding as having a very high number of warrants relating to electronic devices and activity. Not the most data, not the most computers. The most warrants related to electronic devices and media.

Consider, in a child *advertiser censored* case you only need one warrant to scoop up everything from the computer to any storage media to any manuals/software to the piece of paper with a password scribbled on it.

However in dealing with a smartphone you need multiple warrants to cover all the functionality and data of the device: one for the device/contents/adaptors/cards, one for the gps data for the device that comes from the network provider, one for a wiretap, I'm sure another for data like SMS messages because that's a bit different, there will be both historical (like gps) and ongoing (like wiretap) SMS data available. And so on.

 

[MuhGruff]

And you need a warrant for the smartphone's network data (text messages, cell towers pinged, call log, etc.) a warrant to wiretap the phone and a warrant to do a search of the physical smartphone itself (browser and other app data, possibly emails, etc.)

So that's three piles of paperwork for one device. You can see how the warrants/seizures would add up quickly.

Thanks for that that was where I was trying to go with my rant. Between computers seized of the circle involved and all the data collected from each of them from various sites/servers/service providers I imagine LE must have a heaping collection to sort through. although I believe that the quote was referring to the amount of warranty served rather than the number of computers or data collected.

I was also posturing that the quote of "computers seized" might have been bad terminology.

I couldn't possibly post a link to anyone saying it was a prostitution ring because there is no evidence so far. Many prostitutes operate online, I don't need to site reference for that! DM could have just been a webmaster for the girls to advertise on his site, he doesn't have to have an underground operation for that in Canada. I was just speculating that it is possible but more likely that his Internet doings revolved around autoparts sales.

The computer seizure itself might not be anything in itself prolific, LE might just be doing a data scrape for logged occurrences, timeline and how they're all networked. Because of the publication ban it's nearly impossible to sift through actual evidence and we're left to speculate until LE confirms or denies those beliefs.

I'm not convinced this will become new development rather than solidarity of evidence and connecting the dots. This will for sure help LE build a solid case though and I'm really excited to see the outcome of what they find!

Difference between psychos and socio's is mainly the way they came about to be that way (nature vs nurture) psychology today

Sociopaths aren't always career criminals, but is that an important detail to iron out here? Career criminals; 'sociopaths manipulate others emotions in order to repeat the same often unethical and or illegal behavior', I'd call that a career criminal - even if it's not technically illegal. My point was that DM & MS are career criminals, apologies if I worked that wrong. Saying that sociopaths can be successful businessmen or politicians isn't really arguing against my point

What psychopaths are (American scientific)

 

[Kamille]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...had-relationship-with-bosma-accused-1.1399734

"Carbone said Babcock was known to be involved in the sex-trade business as an internet escort for several months prior to her disappearance, but he added that, as far as he knew, Millard was not involved in the sex-trade business."

Respectfully Snipped

Just wanted to point out that this link is from June 2013. At that time, as far as he knew, Carbone didn't think DM was involved in her disappearance or murder either.

Not that I think DM was involved in organized prostitution rings either. Just that it has not been ruled out as far as we know. Other than the fact that he has not been charged with anything related to the sex trade business.

MOO

 

[Ont]

Well in this day and age it would be hard to believe that LE did not have a program that was able to snake Facebook in their arsenal.

A snake is a program that you point to a webpage and it will go through and copy down the site and images, page by page, you just specify just this site, or this site and everything linked to it, or the site, all things (1st degree) linked to it and all sites (2nd degree) linked to (1st degree) linked sites, etc. You can snake just the site or two sites deep or so on. Anyway...

Both after DM's arrest and after MS's, it was apparent that their social networks used Facebook extensively and that all involved were slow to change their privacy settings so as to block out the public. LE could have visited freely and found cause to investigate further.

I expect for every interesting person out there, LE made a request to Facebook for their data file, and for that they would have needed a production order, I guess? Facebook stores everything you have ever given them in the way of data, every change and deletion, forever and ever. You can spend an hour deleting every thing you ever posted to Facebook in your life, and when it comes to LE requesting that data, they will still get everything you've ever posted plus the date and time you deleted it.

Facebook also logs whenever you log in and out, the device, location, the IP, etc.

Facebook also asks in its user contract that you use your real identity, verify it, hold only one account and so on so it is easier for LE to request and receive data...

...than say with Twitter, that asks for no real name or verification, doesn't store even IP information for more than a fleeting period, and really honestly deletes things when you ask them to. Well, after 30 days they do, but they do. Instagram is similar to Twitter. Things do get deleted.

Smartphones, LE will be able to get all the text messages that came or went from one, and if you're using a network, you're going to leave a trail of everywhere you've been. LE mentioned placing some wiretaps, and there will also be browser and app data in the smartphones.

More traditional computers will contain browser data, financial records (e.g., Millardair), schedules, personal email, etc.

So perhaps largest computer seizure means a mountain of data from various digital sources?

Local news, Waterloo based OpenText, which makes systems that track big piles of data like this and let you sort it out into a timeline ("Enterprise Information Management"), got a $120M investment from the Ontario government this week. I wonder who build the EIM for the OPP? Anyway that's the kind of system LE is using.

What's DP using, shareware?

well I most certainly hope not, <modsnip> would hate to think he doesnt use a secure server. I would think that he does. As far as the digital media goes perhaps DM had other websites of his own, or affiliate websites- who knows. Or maybe its just all the convos from friends overseas or bitcoin dealings they had to figure out. ?

 

[Ont]

Weird but someone purchased dellenmillard.com on May 20, 2013. I found a website that was related to 'sex information' but is not working now. Is showing up in google. Troll activity? Info is available in whois though.

That I find very interesting! That is a name that came up yrs ago in an ip search from someone who had threats made to them during another investigation, the ip came from guelph ont on rogers network at that time. Obviously not their real name and there is a variation to it but really I wouldnt expect this to be a real persons name anyhow, just what they used as an alias with diff variations. I have a good feeling anyhow that LE has had all the computer forensics right from the beginning and have branched out from there & kept investigating things. The more I see come to light the more I have faith they will get rid of some bad eggs finally here. I was beginning to wonder a cpl yrs ago but I think they have had it all along. Its horrible LB and TB had to be victims in the meantime when I believe they could have been spared. :crying:

 

[robynhood]

Thanks for that that was where I was trying to go with my rant. Between computers seized of the circle involved and all the data collected from each of them from various sites/servers/service providers I imagine LE must have a heaping collection to sort through. although I believe that the quote was referring to the amount of warranty served rather than the number of computers or data collected.

I was also posturing that the quote of "computers seized" might have been bad terminology.

I couldn't possibly post a link to anyone saying it was a prostitution ring because there is no evidence so far. Many prostitutes operate online, I don't need to site reference for that! DM could have just been a webmaster for the girls to advertise on his site, he doesn't have to have an underground operation for that in Canada. I was just speculating that it is possible but more likely that his Internet doings revolved around autoparts sales.

The computer seizure itself might not be anything in itself prolific, LE might just be doing a data scrape for logged occurrences, timeline and how they're all networked. Because of the publication ban it's nearly impossible to sift through actual evidence and we're left to speculate until LE confirms or denies those beliefs.

I'm not convinced this will become new development rather than solidarity of evidence and connecting the dots. This will for sure help LE build a solid case though and I'm really excited to see the outcome of what they find!

Difference between psychos and socio's is mainly the way they came about to be that way (nature vs nurture) psychology today

Sociopaths aren't always career criminals, but is that an important detail to iron out here? Career criminals; 'sociopaths manipulate others emotions in order to repeat the same often unethical and or illegal behavior', I'd call that a career criminal - even if it's not technically illegal. My point was that DM & MS are career criminals, apologies if I worked that wrong. Saying that sociopaths can be successful businessmen or politicians isn't really arguing against my point

What psychopaths are (American scientific)

This is JMHO but I need to comment that I think MuhGruff..you have done an excellent summary of what I believe is going on with Le in this " Capella" Investigation...Computer data has to do with all the electronic data that the multi task force has been going thru. Cellphones, GPS, computer accounts and especially FB accounts. FB keeps a record of all entries even when they are deleted ...FB was used heavily in this case along with websites...cellphone data PINGED off towers.this is nothing new to the investigations and criminal activity.YES it is impossible for us to guess the evidence but it is clear from this site that there was HEAVY activity involved in this case...the exact evidence shall be clear again when this goes to the courts...JMHO as I sit here reading everyday all of your excellent websleuthing...INDEED FIRST degree Murder charges were charged as I believe that there has been Heavy investigations for a long time....again Just my thoughtful perspective...IMO ...great work to all here ...again IMO...robynhood...I do believe there shall be more charges coming too....:jail:

 

[Juballee]

That quote comes from so early in the investigation, less than a month after TB's murder, that I would not at all be surprised if LE subsequently found information to indicate DM was in fact involved in LB's sex trade activities, if only to take the cash she earned from prostitution and exchange it for drugs.

In other words, that's not convincing proof that DM was not involved in prostitution. (Which is apparently legal anyway.)



This case probably does not involve the most data, or the most devices, but may involve the most electronic device or activity related warrants/production orders (and therefore seizures). Lots of opportunity for DP to get stuff tossed out, as there will have been warrant after warrant filed.



I don't think that will be relevant. I think this case will be outstanding as having a very high number of warrants relating to electronic devices and activity. Not the most data, not the most computers. The most warrants related to electronic devices and media.

Consider, in a child *advertiser censored* case you only need one warrant to scoop up everything from the computer to any storage media to any manuals/software to the piece of paper with a password scribbled on it.

However in dealing with a smartphone you need multiple warrants to cover all the functionality and data of the device: one for the device/contents/adaptors/cards, one for the gps data for the device that comes from the network provider, one for a wiretap, I'm sure another for data like SMS messages because that's a bit different, there will be both historical (like gps) and ongoing (like wiretap) SMS data available. And so on.

Funny, most links to a verified LE quote are taken verbatim, but apparently now there are expiry dates on LE quotes? Granted, he wasn't charged in her murder at that time, from what I recall LE had previously gathered up DM's computer(s) and LB's old one from her parent's house, and had had time to sift through them for evidence, so if there had been a link in the apparent prostitution that was uncovered, I think LE would have had no reason to hide that. Unless someone has a direct LE quote contradicting this one, saying that DM is in fact involved in a prostitution ring, I have to stand by the quote I was asked to find. We're still using information LE announced in May as facts, I don't see why June should be any different.

And as for the quote on it being one of the largest computer seizures in Ontario criminal history, I was looking for verification or comparative quantification of the actual quote, not alternative meanings for the quote, sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[MsSherlock]

Funny, most links to a verified LE quote are taken verbatim, but apparently now there are expiry dates on LE quotes? Granted, he wasn't charged in her murder at that time, from what I recall LE had previously gathered up DM's computer(s) and LB's old one from her parent's house, and had had time to sift through them for evidence, so if there had been a link in the apparent prostitution that was uncovered, I think LE would have had no reason to hide that. Unless someone has a direct LE quote contradicting this one, saying that DM is in fact involved in a prostitution ring, I have to stand by the quote I was asked to find. We're still using information LE announced in May as facts, I don't see why June should be any different.

And as for the quote on it being one of the largest computer seizures in Ontario criminal history, I was looking for verification or comparative quantification of the actual quote, not alternative meanings for the quote, sorry for the misunderstanding.

Jubalee, IMHO, TPS were caught with their pants down when this whole thing broke. IMO, Carbone was not particularly well informed when he gave that presser. Perhaps today, he would be giving a much different statement.
As far as the number of computers and/or size of seizure, IMHO, it may be very extensive depending where LE's trails took them. The shear fact that there's been arrest made for gun trafficking with one of the accused being arrested earlier as part of another group, leads me to believe that this may be much larger than a couple guys and a small group of friends. According to the following article written in 2012, the average family had between 5 & 15 devices. So, IMHO, 2 years later, between tablets, phones and computers, LE may "a lot" of computer devices. IMO, we're not in a position to question LE's statement on that- if they say it was big, IMHO, it's big!
http://go.bloomberg.com/tech-blog/2...-5-connected-devices-while-some-have-15-plus/

 

[swedie]

Interesting article. I have to wonder and believe DK was selling weapons also. Would be interesting to find out how LE gained knowledge of DK's collection. Acquaintance or buyers? MOO.

Published on Tue Mar 12 2013
Ex-Mountie arrested after weapons stockpile uncovered in Bancroft house.

The Ontario Provincial Police on Tuesday unveiled 67 weapons in all, many of them illegally altered, accompanied by tens of thousands of ammunition rounds.

 

[Karjinx]

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4486045-documents-of-millard-airport-negotiations-kept-secret/

 

[artemis17]

Found this article don't know if its already been posted but it's very interesting gives a lot of time line details in regarding to the business up until the crime. And apparently a lot of secrecy regarding some hangar business

http://m.mississauga.com/news-story/4486045-bosma-case-big-hangar-bold-plan-total-disaster-/

Edit: jinx Karjinx you owe me a coke!

 

[Juballee]

Jubalee, IMHO, TPS were caught with their pants down when this whole thing broke. IMO, Carbone was not particularly well informed when he gave that presser. Perhaps today, he would be giving a much different statement.
As far as the number of computers and/or size of seizure, IMHO, it may be very extensive depending where LE's trails took them. The shear fact that there's been arrest made for gun trafficking with one of the accused being arrested earlier as part of another group, leads me to believe that this may be much larger than a couple guys and a small group of friends. According to the following article written in 2012, the average family had between 5 & 15 devices. So, IMHO, 2 years later, between tablets, phones and computers, LE may "a lot" of computer devices. IMO, we're not in a position to question LE's statement on that- if they say it was big, IMHO, it's big!
http://go.bloomberg.com/tech-blog/2...-5-connected-devices-while-some-have-15-plus/

I am just trying to determine some of the facts from some of the opinions and rumours. Someone posted something that I asked them to verify with a link to an MSM quote, but instead of providing that, I was asked to provide proof that their statement was false, which I did via a direct quote from a lead investigator. Now that quote is being discredited because of it's age or because the detective speaking may not have known better at the time? From my limited experience, when the detective giving a presser really isn't sure one way or the other about a question, they deflect it or come up with a non-committal answer that they cannot be pinned down to later. I'm not sure why some people would try to discredit Det. Carbone's words, he may not be the most eloquent public speaker, but I have to assume that he was promoted for his detective skills and not his public speaking ability. Other LE are take at their word, I think that unless another named source close to the investigation states for the record that Det. Carbone was mistaken, we should stop defending rumours that we have been told are false, in my opinion.

I am taking MSM's direct quotes from the Crown and LE at their word, I am not trying to discount, re-articulate or deny their claims. And I feel the same way about the computer seizure quote. I was wondering if the computer quote may have been a clue to something else that may be involved in this case, but if it turns out that the seizure number is so high just because they are young people with lots of personal electronic devices, then we can expect every other case to be one of the largest computer seizures in Ontario criminal history, and the quote loses it's importance.

I see no sense in further arguing these points with anyone, no offence, but I was only looking for factual evidence to back up posted claims or to give us an idea of the scope of the case, as much as I enjoy reading everyone's diverse opinions.

 

[MsSherlock]

I am just trying to determine some of the facts from some of the opinions and rumours. Someone posted something that I asked them to verify with a link to an MSM quote, but instead of providing that, I was asked to provide proof that their statement was false, which I did via a direct quote from a lead investigator. Now that quote is being discredited because of it's age or because the detective speaking may not have known better at the time? From my limited experience, when the detective giving a presser really isn't sure one way or the other about a question, they deflect it or come up with a non-committal answer that they cannot be pinned down to later. I'm not sure why some people would try to discredit Det. Carbone's words, he may not be the most eloquent public speaker, but I have to assume that he was promoted for his detective skills and not his public speaking ability. Other LE are take at their word, I think that unless another named source close to the investigation states for the record that Det. Carbone was mistaken, we should stop defending rumours that we have been told are false, in my opinion.

I am taking MSM's direct quotes from the Crown and LE at their word, I am not trying to discount, re-articulate or deny their claims. And I feel the same way about the computer seizure quote. I was wondering if the computer quote may have been a clue to something else that may be involved in this case, but if it turns out that the seizure number is so high just because they are young people with lots of personal electronic devices, then we can expect every other case to be one of the largest computer seizures in Ontario criminal history, and the quote loses it's importance.

I see no sense in further arguing these points with anyone, no offence, but I was only looking for factual evidence to back up posted claims or to give us an idea of the scope of the case, as much as I enjoy reading everyone's diverse opinions.

Totally respect your point of view Jubalee. Regardless which way it's sliced, IMHO, the investigation has been and still is huge and personally, I'm very interested to see the true scope of the investigation into social media, text messages and everything electronic.

 

[hopingforjustice]

An e-book written by Molly Hayes

http://www.thestar.com/news/stardis..._evil_tim_bosmas_murder_one_year_later_1.html

Well worth the Subscription or one time purchase price. Only a few pages in and am getting a clearer picture of things that have been thrown back and forth on these forums.

ie: states that the 2 men smiled at Sharlene as they left the house with Tim. We now know for certain that she really did get a close look at them.

 

[Tink]

I liked it too, and thought it gave a great picture of Tim as a person.

Tink

 

[robynhood]

An e-book written by Molly Hayes

http://www.thestar.com/news/stardis..._evil_tim_bosmas_murder_one_year_later_1.html

Well worth the Subscription or one time purchase price. Only a few pages in and am getting a clearer picture of things that have been thrown back and forth on these forums.

ie: states that the 2 men smiled at Sharlene as they left the house with Tim. We now know for certain that she really did get a close look at them.

I had to thank you for posting a beautiful article that captures what the Bosma Family Losst and really all of us...such a senseless crime!...and when I read the bottom comments as you all can see....a person commented on how he was harassed..." bullied" when he placed a car ad in Kijji...so dam sad....Tragic ...The whole Tim Bosma Story...:banghead:in my honest opinion..JMHO...I pray for the bosma family that they see JUSTICE ...RIP MR. Timothy Bosma that had the world in front of him..robynhood....:banghead:............Ont will make sure that JUSTICE will Be served Tim...I know you are watching down on us...<3

 

[hopingforjustice]

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/201...ived-at-home-of-wayne-and-dellen-millard.html

 

[newone]

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/201...ived-at-home-of-wayne-and-dellen-millard.html

fascinating!

"After Wayne MIllard was allegedly murdered, Dellen; his mother, Madeleine Burns; and his ex-fiancee were all present as police investigated the death that night. Smich was not there."

Smich and his g/f actually lived in the house at the time WM was alive but on the night he died, they were not there.

 

[cansleuther]

"After Wayne Millard was allegedly murdered, Dellen; his mother, Madeleine Burns; and his ex-fiancée were all present as police investigated the death that night. Smich was not there."

Smich and his g/f actually lived in the house at the time WM was alive but on the night he died, they were not there.

Or does that mean Smich was not present while the police investigation was taking place?

 

[Kamille]

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/201...ived-at-home-of-wayne-and-dellen-millard.html

fascinating!

"After Wayne MIllard was allegedly murdered, Dellen; his mother, Madeleine Burns; and his ex-fiancee were all present as police investigated the death that night. Smich was not there."

Smich and his g/f actually lived in the house at the time WM was alive but on the night he died, they were not there.

Why would his ex-fiancé be there if they had broken up over a year prior?