Titanic tourist sub goes missing in Atlantic Ocean, June 2023 #2

[Luna20]

Has anyone seen a prototype document of what they sign off to? Someone mentioned that it states ‘Death is a possible outcome’ 3xs.

On Newsnation they just showed a crew who went down before and got hooked on one of the titanic propellers. Scary…

 

[Lexiintoronto]

It’s midnight right now where they are, so it’s Thursday.

 

[Luna20]

This brings up a very interesting point.
What happens when a private 'space craft' is in trouble?

I feel people going on experimental vehicles (undersea, on top of mountains or in space) should need to sign waivers acknowledging they are choosing to ride/climb very risky/experimental mountains and vehicles.

And unless they buy a very specific insurance policy (I'm thinking Llyods of London) there will not be funds available for their rescue.

Make the adventurer's pay the insurance policy upfront for taking the unbelievable risk of their carefree adventures.
Otherwise they take on the risk of their adventure as well as the costs that might be incurred to rescue them.

JMO

It’s a stringent waiver, see my above post. I don’t think they have shown the actual document.

 

[linds1393]

I'm back from work and I'm super disappointed they haven't located them yet... Ugh. I was hoping so much somehow for a better outcome... I knew the odds were completely stacked against these folks... But man I was so hopeful they would pull a miracle while I was at work tonight..

 

[10ofRods]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed>

try one finger (dot) and then four fingers (dash)- improvised but....

I don't think that will work on a metal hull while trying to signal to people up top. We're trying to figure out Dot Dash Dot as played by our fists or a hammer on a metal hull.

I like the Triplets/quarter note/Triplets idea (pretty much what most of us were thinking - but now I'll be able to remember it).

You make a very good point.

Thousands of people are now included in their rescue mission. I can't even imagine the $ millions+ that have been spent already.

The US and Canadian Military as well as private companies have deployed many assets on an emergency basis. IMO, every available asset that might assist has been deployed. That doesn't come cheap.

JMO

It likely doesn't cost a whole heckuva lot more than a planned rescue exercise. The Coast Guard is already indicating it intends to keep searching and that what they are learning is "valuable." To me, that's code for "learning about international cooperation, logistical timelines, difficulties of deep water rescues, vagaries with international law" and so on. Nothing works to train people as much as real, hard-won, important service.

I imagine some of their family is on the mothership. Hopefully they can say something to them if they can hear it.

But if they’re able to hear, maybe they could respond to requests by knocking.

There never was a way for direct voice communication with the Titan.

It was all sonar-based transmission of pings and alphanumber coordinate messages of a predetermined length - readable by the transponder on the Titan (which presumably is no longer powered up). So there's nothing to hear.

The layers of angst and tragedy in this are many and it's hard to wrap one's mind around.

Missing Titanic Sub: What Could Have Gone Wrong?

A submersible called Titan has gone missing on a dive to the remains of of the Titanic

www.scientificamerican.com

I would love to know if every single one of these risk factors was explored in that waiver.

JMO.

 

[Andreee]

Likely because of the amount of pressure the seam has to withstand. They are probably using high powered tools to seal from the outside. Any kind of mechanism to open with a lever, etc., would not withstand the enormous amount of pressure that deep down.

Yes, I was thinking that, but at the same time I would like to know if there was any way at all this could have been done in consulting with the best scientists and engineers out there. As it is, from everything I've read, this vessel wasn't exactly top tier, to put it mildly.

 

[HMSHood]

I would not be surprised if the Titan submersible is already destroyed.

 

[cuffem]

Sonar expert says 'banging' is 'debris falling from decaying wreck'

Professor Jeff Karson at Syracuse University, told DailyMail.com that the sounds could be coming from Titanic wreck debris and proof of life hopes could be 'wishful thinking'.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I really do not believe the bangs are human made and the reports are giving false hopes imo. I think the Navy/Coast Guard do not want to give the reality of the situation until it there is proof.

 

[10ofRods]

It is international law, in peacetime and in war times, to rescue people at sea.

This is usually done by the country closest to the distressed vessel.
We spent days (and thousands of dollars) searching for sole UK sailor Tony Bullimore who decided to sail the wild Southern Ocean and capsized. Lucky for him, he was found. link


"The duty to rescue persons in distress at sea is a fundamental rule of international law. It has been incorporated in international treaties and forms the content of a norm of customary international law."

The duty to rescue at sea, in peacetime and in war: A general overview

The duty to rescue persons in distress at sea is a fundamental rule of international law. It has been incorporated in international treaties and forms the content of a norm of customary international law. It applies both during peacetime and during wartime, albeit with the necessary adjustments...

international-review.icrc.org

So, when a vessel is not registered under any national flag, and is in international waters - is that controlled by the citizenship of the passengers? Or by who owns the vessel? Or something else?

And what if rescue is completely unfeasible (listening to expert on TV who says a manned rescue was always impossible).

What if the distressed vessel is never located?

I guess Canada would be the main nation (closer to Newfoundland than to Cape Cod). Does Canada have to keep looking, hoping to effectuate a rescue? Would it be in violation of international law if it didn't?

Who spent the money on Tony Bullimore? Did Australia foot the whole bill??? No help from UK?? Wow.

This is fascinating. I'm sure these laws won't change any time soon, but enforcing them right now seems problematic.

I am guessing that the Coast Guard will search a couple of days past tomorrow, even though there is no hope. Then they will suspend operations, as will Canada, France and UK (all of whom have offered some help). At some point, no reasonable person will believe there are persons to be rescued. I think this old law was meant so that ships who knew of the Titanic's disaster would be obligated to go help (and many did, but not all). I assume the duty is primarily national/military.

It's so odd that CEO Rush could launch this business with no insurance (if indeed he has none), no official licensing, registry or anything else from his own nation - nor from the passengers' nations. And Canada now is stuck with the duty??

JMO. Very sad opinion.

 

[10ofRods]

I really do not believe the bangs are human made and the reports are giving false hopes imo. I think the Navy/Coast Guard do not want to give the reality of the situation until it there is proof.

Which brings us to the question that will plague we Websleuthers, possibly for days, weeks, months or years.

What if there is no proof of what happened?

Searches are called off on federal land (and state lands) all the time, once all hope is gone and experts agree there is no hope.

So I keep wondering how long this will go on. If the Titan imploded, there may be no evidence. OTOH, perhaps a remotely operated camera submersible might find one of the titanium components? If it drifted helplessly off into the Atlantic, it might never be found.

At some point, family members will surely go to court to get people declared dead. Will that mark the end of it, for us, here? I am hoping that fragments enough will be found to allow closure on what actually happened.

I also want to know if there's ever going to be an official meta-report (international) on what experts think actually happened here. I am wondering what kinds of research will now get conducted near the Titanic site, in order to figure it out.

IMO.

 

[KooshBall]

Some people are very secure with the notion that everyone will die at some point, so they are okay with the risk of dying while doing something that they enjoy. I have known people like this and they are usually easy going and care free personalities. I would think 3 of the 5 in the Titan would probably think like that. Especially the French oceanographer, I am sure he made peace with dying in the ocean a long time ago. I doubt the father and son thought death was really a likey scenario. I have had to sign waivers before zip lining and cave repelling, and even though it says death is possible, I assumed the places were certified by some agency, and everything was completely safe.

 

[Luna20]

So, when a vessel is not registered under any national flag, and is in international waters - is that controlled by the citizenship of the passengers? Or by who owns the vessel? Or something else?

And what if rescue is completely unfeasible (listening to expert on TV who says a manned rescue was always impossible).

What if the distressed vessel is never located?

I guess Canada would be the main nation (closer to Newfoundland than to Cape Cod). Does Canada have to keep looking, hoping to effectuate a rescue? Would it be in violation of international law if it didn't?

Who spent the money on Tony Bullimore? Did Australia foot the whole bill??? No help from UK?? Wow.

This is fascinating. I'm sure these laws won't change any time soon, but enforcing them right now seems problematic.

I am guessing that the Coast Guard will search a couple of days past tomorrow, even though there is no hope. Then they will suspend operations, as will Canada, France and UK (all of whom have offered some help). At some point, no reasonable person will believe there are persons to be rescued. I think this old law was meant so that ships who knew of the Titanic's disaster would be obligated to go help (and many did, but not all). I assume the duty is primarily national/military.

It's so odd that CEO Rush could launch this business with no insurance (if indeed he has none), no official licensing, registry or anything else from his own nation - nor from the passengers' nations. And Canada now is stuck with the duty??

JMO. Very sad opinion.

According to AB on NewsNation the Titan is unlicensed. It was an interesting hour with guest that made the journey before. It will air again at midnight CST.

 

[Snail-Overlord]

They should have known the risks. It is on them to own those risks. Some of them expressed ownership of the risks before they embarked.
Having said that, I feel for them and their families. This is a horrific outcome so far.

Of course there are risks, but everything we do is a calculated risk. People do things all the time that aren’t necessary for our survival that run an inherent risk of injury or death, but we normally expect that the people responsible for our safety have taken the proper precautions. Even when we do understand the risks.

OceanGate may not have a legal responsibility to have equipment that has been ensured to be safe, but IMO, they have a moral responsibility.

 

[Arkay]

Which brings us to the question that will plague we Websleuthers, possibly for days, weeks, months or years.

What if there is no proof of what happened?

Searches are called off on federal land (and state lands) all the time, once all hope is gone and experts agree there is no hope.

This is true. I suppose it may develop into one of those unresolved situations that torment the mind and upend the families.

Similar to the Malaysian flight that disappeared, but with the key difference that the passengers there did not sign up for an unregulated extreme adventure, as did these passengers.


Perhaps in 100 years from now, some contraption will carry some future people down to explore the site where the submersible was lost, as a twofer “adventure” when going to view the wreck of the Titanic (if anything remains, by then).


There is still some time left for a rescue if at all possible….I hope when I wake tomorrow, all I’ve written above will be a moot point.

 

[JDG]

I really do not believe the bangs are human made and the reports are giving false hopes imo. I think the Navy/Coast Guard do not want to give the reality of the situation until it there is proof.

Well, I’m sure the officials have had ‘difficult talks’ with the families about timelines for searching and perhaps their expected outcome.

If the media spins it as coming from the vessel, they won’t say much publicly but will be honest with the families.

By the time I’m awake in the morning, there will likely be an answer.

I still want them to be rescued but doubt it will happen, too difficult.

 

[10ofRods]

According to AB on NewsNation the Titan is unlicensed. It was an interesting hour with guest that made the journey before. It will air again at midnight CST.

So...Canada's responsibility as closest nation and point of disembarkation?

Fascinating.

 

[cuffem]

Which brings us to the question that will plague we Websleuthers, possibly for days, weeks, months or years.

What if there is no proof of what happened?

Searches are called off on federal land (and state lands) all the time, once all hope is gone and experts agree there is no hope.

So I keep wondering how long this will go on. If the Titan imploded, there may be no evidence. OTOH, perhaps a remotely operated camera submersible might find one of the titanium components? If it drifted helplessly off into the Atlantic, it might never be found.

At some point, family members will surely go to court to get people declared dead. Will that mark the end of it, for us, here? I am hoping that fragments enough will be found to allow closure on what actually happened.

I also want to know if there's ever going to be an official meta-report (international) on what experts think actually happened here. I am wondering what kinds of research will now get conducted near the Titanic site, in order to figure it out.

IMO.

Reminds me of MH370.

 

[10ofRods]

Some people are very secure with the notion that everyone will die at some point, so they are okay with the risk of dying while doing something that they enjoy. I have known people like this and they are usually easy going and care free personalities. I would think 3 of the 5 in the Titan would probably think like that. Especially the French oceanographer, I am sure he made peace with dying in the ocean a long time ago. I doubt the father and son thought death was really a likey scenario. I have had to sign waivers before zip lining and cave repelling, and even though it says death is possible, I assumed the places were certified by some agency, and everything was completely safe.

I don't think anyone ever makes peace with the types of deaths this would have involved (just the high CO2/diminishing O2 would set off a physical chain of events in the human body that no one would look forward to or be able to approach "peacefully." It's an awful way to die.

I say this in part because my dad certainly made peace with death before setting off to World War 2, but he surely didn't want to die in certain ways. Not that he kept a cyanide capsule or anything, but he always said getting shot would be preferably to drowning inside his tank. He was also not keen on being a P.O.W.

The descriptions I've read of what it would be like to be up on the surface, bobbing just underneath, while the oxygen slowly depleted are just as bad.

IMO. It's an awful way to go. A simple drowning wouldn't be so bad (I've talked to people who almost drowned and that's what they remember - they didn't feel panic or pain at the time, so that's good). But slow asphyxiation. Not so great.

 

[fred&edna]

Some people are very secure with the notion that everyone will die at some point, so they are okay with the risk of dying while doing something that they enjoy. I have known people like this and they are usually easy going and care free personalities. I would think 3 of the 5 in the Titan would probably think like that. Especially the French oceanographer, I am sure he made peace with dying in the ocean a long time ago. I doubt the father and son thought death was really a likey scenario. I have had to sign waivers before zip lining and cave repelling, and even though it says death is possible, I assumed the places were certified by some agency, and everything was completely safe.

I doubt zip lining and the cave repelling adventures were considered experimental or exploratory like traveling 12,000ft below sea level. I doubt the waivers are comparable. jmo

 

[mickey2942]

I doubt zip lining and the cave repelling adventures were considered experimental or exploratory like traveling 12,000ft below sea level. I doubt the waivers are comparable. jmo

Heck, look at the waivers on the back of a lift ticket for skiing, size 2 font.