Titanic tourist sub goes missing in Atlantic Ocean, June 2023 #4

[acutename]

Yes, I'll be shocked if there aren't lawsuits filed, maybe even criminal charges. From the three photos I posted earlier, of the big group shots of Missions 2, 3 and 4. I'm guessing the woman next to Stockton in all those photos is his wife, Wendy. Interesting that she's not listed as an officer of the company or on the BOD, but I think her title was Communications Director, per her LinkedIn page.

Certainly she had knowledge of the safety reports from Lochridge and the following lawsuit. Maybe she should have had a duty of care to step in and do something at that point. I found the lawsuit document online and it's pretty easy reading for someone even without an advanced degree in science. I'm so curious if Wendy actually went down on the sub or if she preferred to stay on the boat? Did she think it was safe?

I'm guessing there will be a lawsuit and all their internal communications, such as emails will be subpoenaed to see who knew what and if they in fact thought it was too dangerous to dive the Titan.

DocumentCloud

On page 5, Lochridge admits he "mooned" some OceanGate staff in jest! lol Guess he had an interesting sense of humor!

what flammable materials is he saying were on board?

 

[acutename]

Looks like McCallum backpedaled a bit from his earlier statement that Titan dropped weights to attempt to ascend after the hull monitor alarm warned of hull failure (numerous links and discussion can be found upthread). Now he’s saying “maybe.” So did he have inside information or not?

My question was how would he know? The only way would be if someone on the support ship actually told him.

From your link, this is what he’s saying now, which supports what fired employee Lochridge claimed - that the hull monitoring system was flawed and any warning would come just milliseconds before implosion. The link in my last post also explained similar:

“Sometimes, they lose a little bit of weight to slow down as they’re approaching the bottom and sometimes, they lose a lot of weight in order to ascend,” McCallum explained to the Guardian. “You would need to read the dive log to know what weights were being dropped immediately prior to the catastrophe.”

The known circumstances are limited: the submersible was “located pretty much exactly where it was supposed to be” and that the implosion took mere milliseconds, McCallum said.

Submersibles “don’t carry a flight data recorder, and so you are reliant on communications between the submersible and the ship above – unless the log shows a concern from the submersible, then we’ll never know,” said McCallum, who has operated multiple commercial submarines to about 11,000 meters (36,089 ft).

Is there a description of the hull monitoring system somewhere? what it was based on? how it worked?

 

[acutename]

I wonder how much money anyone (SR, exec, investors) actually made from OG. I thought the company (and/or SR) was likely losing money. Not sure where I came to that conclusion... maybe it's my own reasoning as OG didn't actually take that many excursions each year, the number of "mission specialists" who paid $250K was minimal (the Titan was not a large capacity vessel). jmo

without actual numbers, it seems that expenses and salaries would not leave a big profit margin IMO

 

[MsMarple]

Is there a description of the hull monitoring system somewhere? what it was based on? how it worked?

The system seemed to be acoustic (sonic) based. One of the articles I linked to earlier quoted an expert on composites who said that system would likely not give enough warning, contrary to what Rush claimed.

Here’s a description, more at the link:

In an April 2020 Instagram post, the firm wrote that "acoustic emission sensors" mounted to the submersible's hull would sense and record changes to the carbon fiber as the vessel was diving.

"This real-time monitoring system samples sound waves through the hulls many times per second, providing incredible accuracy and allowing us to assess the health of the hull during the dive," OceanGate wrote.

The company said it conducted "extensive testing" and relied on 20 years of prior research that showed "increased acoustic activity always occurs well before the structure fails."
…
But OceanGate's "acoustic monitoring system" was criticized in 2018 by the company's then-director of marine operations, David Lochridge, a veteran submarine pilot who said he was fired after raising "serious safety concerns" about the submersible.

Lochridge said he warned OceanGate that the system could only detect when a component was about to fail "often milliseconds before an implosion," according to a lawsuit he filed against the company.

OceanGate boasted on Instagram in 2020 that its Titanic submersible would detect hull defects with 'incredible accuracy' and 'well before the safety of the crew is threatened'

The claim contradicts warnings in 2018 from a senior executive, who said the system only detects flaws "often milliseconds before an implosion."

www.insider.com

OceanGate, Inc. on LinkedIn: We were so busy working in the shop that we forgot to celebrate Inventors…

We were so busy working in the shop that we forgot to celebrate Inventors Day last Saturday! Deep sea exploration requires innovation and collaboration. We…

www.linkedin.com

 

[Charlot123]

I need to look at the lawsuit. Anyone seen the complaint? Rush's other Ocean Gate entities were all Washington companies, LLCs and corps.

I'm sorry Charlot, i wasn't following your argument on Lockridge and the visa issue. Fill me in.

Oh, I was just surprised as O visa is commonly called “Einstein visa”, for people with “extraordinary abilities”. It just added bitter irony; you know the phrase, “I am no Einstein but I can see that it won’t work”. In this even when SR’s “Einstein” told him the obvious thing, all that he got was being taken to court. (But, it is good that the case has a hero. We need such examples).

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

what flammable materials is he saying were on board?

IIRC He said that there was a mixture of layered materials that could be a combustion risk and I think he said in the flooring but unsure

 

[squish]

why is Paul Nargeolet considered a wrongdoer? I’ve not been following a few days, what have I missed?

 

[alsleuther]

without actual numbers, it seems that expenses and salaries would not leave a big profit margin IMO

Yes, with so few high dollar customers paying to dive to the Titanic, I wonder if the company had other streams of income?

An interesting part of the 6 minute promotional video posted earlier, there was a strong focus on how the Mission Specialists would spend their days, gathering and examining data from the deep sea dives, as if you didn't even need a science background to do so!

IMO, That video was carefully curated to highlight the exciting exploration opportunities to potential clients, but then secondly to emphasize OceanGate's contribution to science, as if it was almost created with 2 audiences in mind.

Could there have been lucrative ways of collecting grant money or otherwise negotiated contracts for deep sea research on these ocean organisms seen only at the Titanic wreckage site?

I found this on the Wikipedia page for Titanic:

"The most dramatic deterioration has been caused by biological factors. It used to be thought that the depths of the ocean were a lifeless desert, but research carried out since the mid-1980s has found that the ocean floor is teeming with life and may rival the tropical rainforests for biodiversity.[109] During the 1991 IMAX expedition, scientists were surprised by the variety of organisms that they found in and around the Titanic. A total of 28 species were observed, including sea anemones, crabs, shrimp, starfish, and rattail fish up to a yard (1 m) long.[90] Much larger creatures have been glimpsed by explorers.[110]

Some of the Titanic's fauna has never been seen anywhere else; James Cameron's 2001 expedition discovered a previously unknown type of sea cucumber, lavender with a glowing row of phosphorescent "portholes" along its side.[111] A newly discovered species of rust-eating bacterium found on the ship has been named Halomonas titanicae, which has been found to cause rapid decay of the wreck."

 

[CrimeDawg123]

why is Paul Nargeolet considered a wrongdoer? I’ve not been following a few days, what have I missed?

I don't know if he is considered a wrongdoer per se. I think his presence and things he said gave passengers/tourists/"mission specialists" confidence that the Titan was safe. And I think there are those who have taken a quote he made about his age as him having a less than concerned attitude towards safety. I don't have an opinion myself. It is only speculation about what he may have really known about the Titan IMO.

 

[ArianeEmory]

And I think there are those who have taken a quote he made about his age as him having a less than concerned attitude towards safety.

It wasn’t just his age, he also said an implosion would be a good way to die because it would be instant.

I’m not saying he’s “wrongdoer”, just saying he said those words.

I’m also not personally thrilled about his involvement in removing so many artifacts from the wreck (thousands), the vast majority of which are not available to the public, scholars, researchers, etc, because they are being held by a private company.

But that doesn’t mean I think he’s responsible for or deserved the Titan disaster.

 

[ch_13]

why is Paul Nargeolet considered a wrongdoer? I’ve not been following a few days, what have I missed?

I was the one who called Nargeolet and Rush 'wrongdoers', but it was in the context of a hypothetical civil trial against them had they lived.

Nargeolet told the passengers that the sub was safe, even though he himself was warned otherwise by the DSV community. The very presence of 'Mr. Titanic' (as he was called) on the dives reassured the passengers that the missions were being done in a professional manner.

He may not have been criminally culpable, but I think his words and actions will be a focus of any civil lawsuit.

 

[fred&edna]

Has any news reporter/outlets provided the total number of "lay persons" who paid $250K for the Titanic excursion since OG began offering them, and in what year did OG begin offering these dives to the general public?

 

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[alsleuther]

Has any news reporter/outlets provided the total number of "lay persons" who paid $250K for the Titanic excursion since OG began offering them, and in what year did OG begin offering these dives to the general public?

No, but that is an interesting point. OceanGate had other previous subs that had gone to the wreckage, but this was presumably the Titan's 5th Mission. Their Facebook page clearly documented Missions 2, 3 and 4 with photos of the participants, so we are really just talking about a handful of paying guests in the past couple of years.

If you watch the YouTube promotional video, the past guests included their title, and in addition to what looked like businessmen, there was a "chef" and a "social media influencer". I doubt they paid for a $250K ticket. And the famous YouTuber, Mr. Beast, claims he was offered a spot on the Titan, but again, people like that probably don't pay full price, if anything at all.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/25/entertainment/mrbeast-titan-submersible/index.html

The company did collect some PPP funds related to COVID. If you go to the PPP site, it appears these loans were forgiven, and not required to be paid back.

OceanGate received $450K in pandemic PPP loans to cover payroll costs

The company that operated the Titan submersible received $447,000 in government loans throughout the pandemic, according to federal loan tracker ProPublica.

nypost.com

 

[Sundog]

why is Paul Nargeolet considered a wrongdoer? I’ve not been following a few days, what have I missed?

PH is a victim, and well regarded and respected in the deep dive and Titanic research community. As his Foundation CEO/leader is quoted as saying "he's a giant of a man." May this good man rest in peace, with the other victims on Titan.

 

[ArianeEmory]

He may not have been criminally culpable, but I think his words and actions will be a focus of any civil lawsuit.

Yeah, I’m on the same page here. I understand the “don’t speak ill of the dead” portion of victim blaming, but when I game it out in my head I’m wondering who would be financially or possibly criminally liable (if Rush hadn’t structured things so carefully to evade laws) … if it weren’t for the fact that they’re dead. If they’d stayed on dry land for that particular “expedition”.

 

[kaen]

OceanGate suspends all exploration and commercial operations after Titan implosion

OceanGate said it is suspending all exploration and commercial operations after five people were killed, including the company's CEO, during its expedition to the Titanic wreckage last month. OceanGate, founded in 2009, offered tourists the opportunity to travel on submersibles into the ocean's...

www.yahoo.com

Not a surprise.

 

[MsMarple]

PH is a victim, and well regarded and respected in the deep dive and Titanic research community. As his Foundation CEO/leader is quoted as saying "he's a giant of a man." May this good man rest in peace, with the other victims on Titan.

Nice post. Nargeolet certainly contributed to the exploration of Titanic (and other important deep sea expeditions) and was respected in the community of experts.

One minor clarification. RMS titanic, inc. and E/M Group are corporations not foundations. A small but important distinction IMO. Nargeolet certainly was entitled to profit from his work.

I haven’t found any direct connection to the OceanGate Foundation but I think Rush said Nargeolet’s passenger spot on Titan was that of Titanic expert and educator; it’s not clear if he was paid by OceanGate Expeditions or just compensated by riding free.

RMS Titanic, Inc.

Welcome to the official home of RMS Titanic, Inc., proudly offering comprehensive educational programs, innovative exhibitions, and Titanic collaborations.

www.discovertitanic.com

About – OceanGate Foundation

www.oceangatefoundation.org

 

[alsleuther]

Timeline of OceanGate Titanic diving. So it started in the Summer of 2021, then it appears they returned the next two Summers. So this was their 3rd season of diving to the wreck.​

Timeline found on the OceanGate Foundation page:

Titanic Expedition – OceanGate Foundation

www.oceangatefoundation.org

​

2023: Phase 3​

The science and expedition teams are preparing equipment, research plans, and resources to return to Titanic in May and June of 2023. The multi-disciplinary team will continue their survey efforts that began in Phase 1 and Phase 2.

2022: Phase 2​

Following the success of the 2021 Titanic Expedition, the expeditionary team returned to the site in the summer of 2022 to continue exploring and documenting the condition of the historic shipwreck and debris field.

Our sponsored science team utilized advanced and time-tested techniques to gather data for future analysis. An array of 4K and 8K cameras, 2D sonar scanners, direct observation and grid mapping are just some of the techniques and equipment that the team utilized during each of the dives that lasted up to 10 hours.

The team also conducted the first-ever Environmental DNA (eDNA) sampling of the site to help determine the presence of species around the wreck.

2021: Phase 1​

During the summer of 2021, a multi-disciplinary expedition team conducted the first phase of a multi-year series of crewed submersible dives to explore and document the condition of RMS Titanic and portions of the nearly unexplored debris field.

This inaugural phase and series of dives included experts in marine biology, nautical archaeology, marine ecology, and Titanic history. The team succeeded in capturing thousands of images of the bow section, stern section, and portions of the massive debris field. This data is a great resource for assessing changes in the condition of the site and continues to provide a solid foundation for planning future dives and surveys.

 

[10ofRods]

I don't think that Nargeolet was a billionaire. I've seen people say it online, but I don't know where it comes from. He didn't own those 5500 relics. They were and are owned by Premier Exhibitions, the successor to RMS Titanic, Inc. the company that had salvage rights to the Titanic and was Nargeolet's employer. It's a for-profit company and was never going to give away the artifacts to museums. Their whole business model is to sell relics and/or rent them out for traveling exhibits.

Premier Exhibitions - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In any case, the relics would not be worth anywhere near $1 billion. According to the wikipedia article, when RMS Titanic, Inc. went bankrupt in 2018, "at least three groups were vying for the right to purchase the 5,500 Titanic relics that were an asset of the bankrupt company...two of the offers for the collection were just under US $20 million."

I don't know how much the artifacts would be worth (no one does, IMO) but yes, it seems really unsubstantiated that PN was a billionaire (but it's definitely in some MSM articles).

Let's just say he was living pretty well. And the missing artifacts (5000 of them) are almost certainly sold at auction. Premier ought not to have gone bankrupt had they handled their mission properly, IMO. Something is fishy in Denmark regarding that bankruptcy and the liquidation at auction of these artifacts.

The artifacts were not given to museums. I am sorry I wasn't clear. Premier sold 200 artifacts to museums - at very high prices, IMO. And I think you're off a little on the valuation before that big auction.

Titanic artifacts valued at $200M head for auction

5,500 pieces of history linked to the 1912 tragedy will be sold as one huge collection, and interest will be high

www.cbsnews.com

This article says $200 million valuation - so if they actually sold for a 10th of that, someone, somewhere made a lot of money.

PN had been fairly quiet about his role in all of this (and btw, he was certainly careful about crafting his public image - most people think he was a grieving widower, whose wife had died of breast cancer, and who told people that dying deep below the ocean's surface was "quick" and that he didn't fear it, all leading to the view that this was a man who assessed risk in, perhaps, a different way than others might).

In fact, he had remarried. Her name is Anne Sarraz-Bournet. I believe he may have had a child with her, but for sure he was the step-dad to her children (and father to two children with his first wife).

Paul-Henri Nargeolet, Known as ‘Mr. Titanic,’ Dies at 77 (Published 2023)

One of the five people aboard the Titan submersible when it imploded, he died near the Titanic wreckage that he had visited dozens of times.

www.nytimes.com

MSM has been reporting his net worth at $1.5 billion, although I have no idea how they confirm that.

Paul-Henri Nargeolet Net Worth: How 'Mr. Titanic' Makes Money

Paul-Henri Nargeolet was one of the passengers who died on the Titan, which went missing in June. Find out his net worth, how he made money.

www.intouchweekly.com

It is indeed hard to fathom how he got that rich by piloting a salvage submersible, writing one book, and doing consulting for a few years. He's either not that rich or something is going on. He had moved out of his NY home and taken up legal residency in Puerto Rico fairly recently. He lived in Connecticut before NY and PR, for quite a length of time.

But then, articles are reporting his age differently from piece to piece (71 vs. 77; wikipedia has him at 77 and I believe that's correct - someone mistyped it and it got repeated).

However, it's hard to believe the man lived on an ordinary salary. The impression that he's super rich is still out there. I wish we knew the truth.

IMO.

And in other news, news outlets have discovered a Princetonian Article from 1983, desribing Rush's drunk driving arrest - and his driving past a lowered railroad crossing barrier that was flashing lights.

OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush once crashed his car into a train and was charged with drunk driving while at Princeton: report

Princeton's student newspaper, The Daily Princetonian, said that Rush was involved in a "series of arrests" when he was a student.

news.yahoo.com

It's being shared in international media as we speak.

IMO.