TN TN - Kathy Jones, 12, Nashville, 29 Nov 1969 #1

[bessie]

"Whoever did this was a vicious and vile creature.”

What Micky Miller said to the Scene about Kathy's murder. When he said this, he had been with the police for 22 years. So, if he calls someone "vicious" and "vile", I take him seriously.

Then he starts talking about DNA and polygraphs and Adcox. and around then is when they started focusing on the other person, concluding Adcox had not done it.

But, I do not believe the other two detectives were wrong.. Adcox was involved or knew something even if he was not the murderer. Only the current detectives really know what is in those files that explain the elimination of Adcox as a suspect and why they are certain someone else is guilty.

I wonder.. did they have something of the killer's that they could run DNA on that they never told anyone about? The article says Adcox cooperated with the investigation.. does this mean he voluntarily gave them a DNA sample?

I just keep going through this Scene article. I am so thankful for it though it is so sad to read it.

I don't think he was ruled out by DNA. In that case, they would simply state it. Also, the article says because, blood tests were rarely used, there was no medical examiner to do an autopsy, and DNA profiling wasn't a factor in 1969, very little physical evidence was retained. Which means that there is no way to develop a DNA profile of the perp, so DNA from Adcox would be useless.

I tend to disagree that Adcox was responsible or involved. The original detectives had eight years to build a case, and they were unsuccessful. According to the Scene article, he became a suspect because he had a history as a child molester. The only thing mentioned in the way of evidence against him is a story from an 8-year-old victim, and one from a convicted felon who said Adcox talked to them about the crime. But what did he really say? Did he spin a tale from facts he'd learned over time? Or did he reveal details that had been hidden from the public so only the real killer would know? I would think if he had, the second team of detectives wouldn't have dismissed him so quickly.

As Miller reviewed the evidence, he took another look at the skating-rink bus driver. “He was a person who had been suspected of child molesting, and had been charged on one other occasion with that. He looked like a good suspect at the time.” So Miller, Lt. Tommy Jacobs,and Detective E.J. Bernard interrogated the suspect, who agreed to cooperate with the investigation. They soon concluded he was not involved in the Jones murder.http://www.nashvillescene.com/nashville/a-killing-a-search-a-suspect/Content?oid=1182733

As for the "new" suspect, which never did pan out, I have a theory about that. Miller and Jacobs also worked the Marcia Trimble murder. When DNA proved Jerome Barrett to be the killer, everyone wanted an interview with the man who was the lead suspect for 30 years, and he was eager to talk. LE focused on this guy from the day MT disappeared until they finally arrested him four-and-a-half years later. Just like with Adcox in KJ's case, the charges wouldn't stick. Nevertheless, LE didn't let up on him. In 1990, ten years after the charges were dropped, (and fifteen years after the murder), a team of detectives, including Jacobs, paid him a visit at his place of employment.

"Five blue lights come flying through the parking lot, and I already knew. I didn't know what they wanted, but I knew who they were coming to see," Womack said. "(Detective) Tommy Jacobs comes in the kitchen. He comes in, and one cop - he got his hand on his gun - and the other one's got his gun down by his side. And there's soap suds all over the floor, and Tommy Jacobs says, 'Oh, hey Jeffrey. Don't look like you've changed at all.' I said, 'You neither, a-----. Put the f----- guns up.'"

Womack's DNA would never match the evidence at the murder scene. Yet, the following year, came a brand new investigative summary with the same old conclusion. The team is convinced that the guilty suspect has been identified, and through an aggressive and thorough prosecution effort, Womack will be found guilty of this crime, the report said.

The district attorney said no to a prosecution.

This went on and on for 30 years. They were obsessed. Now if you're that convinced a suspect is guilty of a vicious child sex murder, and you open the file on a very similar unsolved crime with no viable suspects, where are you going to lean? Knowing this other side of the story puts things into perspective. I have a hunch the person Miller was so certain killed Kathy was the MT suspect. And if that's true, then it's back to square one. JMO

http://www.wsmv.com/story/20100956/longtime-suspect-in-marcia-trimble-case-speaks-out-for-first-time

http://www.nashvillescene.com/nashv...didnt-kill-marcia-trimble/Content?oid=3080150

http://www.nashvillescene.com/pitw/...s-the-marcia-trimble-case-tonight-at-belcourt

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2008/09/22/arrest-in-girl-scout-33-year-old-murder-jolts-city/

http://www.wsmv.com/story/20112561/phone-calls-lead-to-questions-in-marcia-trimble-case

 

[BOESP]

Yeah...

All of these cases really reveal that these criminals do vary their methods. There is the idea that once an individual has progressed to murdering their victims, they always do so. But, we are finding, this is not true. They have a range of crimes they commit and they continue committing crimes along that range even after they have gone so far as to murder someone.

December, I assume you know that the fellow whose name you don't mention here has a record in South Carolina?

 

[December]

I don't think he was ruled out by DNA. In that case, they would simply state it. Also, the article says because, blood tests were rarely used, there was no medical examiner to do an autopsy, and DNA profiling wasn't a factor in 1969, very little physical evidence was retained. Which means that there is no way to develop a DNA profile of the perp, so DNA from Adcox would be useless.

I tend to disagree that Adcox was responsible or involved. The original detectives had eight years to build a case, and they were unsuccessful. According to the Scene article, he became a suspect because he had a history as a child molester. The only thing mentioned in the way of evidence against him is a story from an 8-year-old victim, and one from a convicted felon who said Adcox talked to them about the crime. But what did he really say? Did he spin a tale from facts he'd learned over time? Or did he reveal details that had been hidden from the public so only the real killer would know? I would think if he had, the second team of detectives wouldn't have dismissed him so quickly. As for the "new" suspect, which never did pan out, I have a theory about that. Miller and Jacobs also worked the Marcia Trimble murder. When DNA proved Jerome Barrett to be the killer, everyone wanted an interview with the man who was the lead suspect for 30 years, and he was eager to talk. LE focused on this guy from the day MT disappeared until they finally arrested him four-and-a-half years later. Just like with Adcox in KJ's case, the charges wouldn't stick. Nevertheless, LE didn't let up on him. In 1990, ten years after the charges were dropped, (and fifteen years after the murder), a team of detectives, including Jacobs, paid him a visit at his place of employment.
This went on and on for 30 years. They were obsessed. Now if you're that convinced a suspect is guilty of a vicious child sex murder, and you open the file on a very similar unsolved crime with no viable suspects, where are you going to lean? Knowing this other side of the story puts things into perspective. I have a hunch the person Miller was so certain killed Kathy was the MT suspect. And if that's true, then it's back to square one. JMO

http://www.wsmv.com/story/20100956/longtime-suspect-in-marcia-trimble-case-speaks-out-for-first-time

http://www.nashvillescene.com/nashv...didnt-kill-marcia-trimble/Content?oid=3080150

http://www.nashvillescene.com/pitw/...s-the-marcia-trimble-case-tonight-at-belcourt

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2008/09/22/arrest-in-girl-scout-33-year-old-murder-jolts-city/

http://www.wsmv.com/story/20112561/phone-calls-lead-to-questions-in-marcia-trimble-case

No, it's not the same guy.. I know this because of people in my family talking to the cops. They didn't think Kathy and Marcia were killed by the same guy. I am sure they looked at the same guy and considered it, but a guy who moves and gets along over on Thompson Lane may not be able to do the same over in Green Hills. Maybe that is why?

Or maybe it's due to the difference between the way Kathy was found (condition of her body, quickness of locating her, etc.) versus the way Marcia was found?

But, I don't think Miller is talking about this dude they suspected of killing Marcia. Though I am sure they leaned on him HARD just for Marcia alone. Just like they leaned on Adcox and just like they leaned on the other guy.

I understand they didn't have DNA in 1969, but there's an article about DNA being used to solve these three cold cases Kathy, Wanda, and Eva. So, what DNA? They must have something? A stray hair found on her body, something. IDK what because they never have said.

And it's in the article right after they start talking about DNA.

They arrested Adcox a bunch of times. IDK, they thought they had the goods on him. Back in the day, without forensics, he couldn't be eliminated. I think he knew something. He knew the local pervs. Maybe something in the polygraphs eliminated him?

 

[December]

December, I assume you know that the fellow whose name you don't mention here has a record in South Carolina?

No, I did not know that. Very interesting! Thank you for that information. :takeabow:

 

[December]

I decided to go sofar as to send an email to the knife people. in the meantime, here are some pretty photos of knives.

let is start with the nazis first.

here is a himmler style ss dagger (very rare NOW, idk about back in the day):
handle

blade

a slightly different SS dagger
blade

handle

a german army dagger

yay! all fixed!

thank you, Bessie!

 

[December]

Bessie, although you may have a point about Adcox. Maybe, being a child rapist and all, he decided to increase his prison status by claiming to be a child murderer (I really don't understand how it works, but possibly this would be a thing). They don't say who this "known felon" was, but I get the idea that guy was to get info from Adcox however he possibly could. So, yeah, Adcox might have piece together a story including info not in media reports that he heard from local pervs.

ETA
Adcox would have known in Dec. 1969 that he was a suspect.

 

[December]

Reading between the lines I think this is what took place after Kathy was found:

The police went into high gear bringing in a lot of people for questioning. For, some, this means they arrested them. Others, maybe not. Then, they started working their way through these guys. I really think it was something like 300 men. Anyway, they start going through them and releasing them.

Now, the paper prints around this time that "they have a suspect in custody". I would bet money (and I am cheap, I never bet) that was Edward Warner Adcox. This means he went home last and was probably questioned many times. They may have even prosecuted him for some minor offenses in order to keep him in their presence longer.

O.k., so they have to let Adcox leave.. either later in Dec. 1969 or in early 1970. If I was Ed Adox, I have to say, once I was free I would be finding out all I could about this murder so I would know WHY the cops were trying to nail me to the wall over it. Hence, he may have possessed information never in any media report because he traced it down himself by talking to people who wouldn't talk to the police (and who he was afraid to give up/didn't want to give up to the cops).

Then, about 1977, when it turned out they were going to send him down for murder one (which means execution, if found guilty, in that particular case), I guess he decided to pull out all the stops to try to get Metro Police off his back once and for all. I don't know what he did, but he did something. And then, the case which had been bound over to the Grand Jury was rejected by the DA. I've heard lack of evidence (which there is nothing Adcox could do there) and problems with witnesses (Adcox could do something there... with what information he'd given in the past if he retracted it all and that was on record, for example).

Then they lost interest in him first in 1979, then later* they eliminated him completely as a suspect. But, by the time they did, he was cooperating with them. He must have known there was some way he could finally PROVE to them he did not do it.

speculation and I am still not completely giving up on Adcox because my father thought he was guilty. moo!

*a lot later, Micky Miller was actually one of the people working on the case by then.

 

[nerosleuth]

13-year-old Glenda Sirmans was abducted from Farragut, TN, in Knox County on the same day Kathy disappeared. She was abducted while walking to a friend's house to work on a school project. Her body was found two weeks later eight miles away on Lakeland Road in Loudon County. She was nude, her throat slashed, and there was another cut to her throat.

Authorities believe Glenda died the same day she was abducted, November 29, 1969, and the murder remains unsolved.

This brings back the issue of timing, and whether Kathy was abducted during the day or at night. The area where Glenda's body was found is about 172 miles from the skating rink. Driving 70-75 mph on I-40 (speed limits weren't reduced until 1973), the trip is less than three hours. I haven't read where investigators considered the two murders were related, but one has to wonder. But again, it hinges on the timing of Kathy's disappearance. If not related, it's quite a coincidence.

This is an interesting find. Two girls in Tennessee who were abducted on the same day from the Nashville and Knoxville areas. Both areas are three hour drive apart from each other. And both girls were found similarly murdered.

I’m now wondering if Kathy was taken out of town after she was abducted. It could be possible that she was taken somewhere halfway between the Nashville and Knoxville areas.

 

[nerosleuth]

The article on the left says he "lived there off and on" (Kingsport), and was arrested in Indianapolis in 1967. Nashville and the Knoxville area would have been on his route to Indianapolis. So where was he on Thanksgiving weekend 1969?

Metro Police would know about this Bowman/Bowen/whatever his name was individual.

Kingsport is very close to other nearby states in the Appalachian region.

We may have to look into other abduction and murder cases involving juvenile and adult females during the 60’s & 70’s in Tennessee, North Carolina, Virginia, Kentucky, West Virginia, Ohio, and Indiana.

I also wonder if the Tennessee Bureau of Investigations were aware of this individual and were also involved in the murder investigations of Kathy Jones and Glenda Sirmans.

 

[nerosleuth]

The Scene article describes the wounds on her neck as "several almond shaped cuts". I think it's possible these could have been caused by her own fingernails if she clawed at/tried to loosen something around her neck.

She may have, indeed, clawed at her neck trying to loosen that thing. However, she was found with her hands bound behind her.

And I will say, it seemed to people who saw her body she had been in the position she was found in (hands bound, legs in weird positions, things like that) for a while.

It is possible.. but don't forget her hands were bound behind her back.

I think is it possible that they did the other stuff first and she tried to get free and then they bound her hands. So, maybe it could happen that way.

While I think it is possible.. I wonder if it was some bondage gear like a studded dog collar or she was threatened with a certain type of knife (but not deeply cut).

But, I do not really know.. and I'm honestly asking.. would she be able to quickly cut into her neck with her nails and leave such marks? Her hands were bound for a while.

While it could be possible that Kathy may have tried to claw or loosen something on her neck, I believe it would have left scratch marks on her neck.

I think the question here is did Kathy have long fingernails at the time of her abduction? Were there any fingernail scratch marks on her neck and were any of her fingernails broken when her body was found?

While I agree that Kathy was bound for quite a while, I also believe that Kathy was hogtied in weird positions as well.

 

[nerosleuth]

I don't know this is what happened, but Kathy was murdered by either a group of people or one extremely horrible sadist. A demon in human form. Something horrifying.

Thus, I am trying to think of different horrifying possibilities. This may seem far fetched, but it does happen sometimes.

I don’t think it is far fetched to consider other horrifying possibilities, considering the extremely gruesome nature of Kathy’s murder.

I strongly suspect that Kathy was a victim of an extremely violent and physically strong predator who is involved with an illegal underground ring.

The illegal underground ring could be a pedo ring, or a cult ring that is involved in occult or satanic rituals, or a snuff film ring that is involved in recording the murders of their victims on film.

 

[December]

I don’t think it is far fetched to consider other horrifying possibilities, considering the extremely gruesome nature of Kathy’s murder.

I strongly suspect that Kathy was a victim of an extremely violent and physically strong predator who is involved with an illegal underground ring.

The illegal underground ring could be a pedo ring, or a cult ring that is involved in occult or satanic rituals, or a snuff film ring that is involved in recording the murders of their victims on film.

I'm glad you know about this kind of thing as well. Yeah, I think it is a possibility. I don't want it to be, but I think it is.

It is not normal they have to break a girl's legs to put her in a coffin. Even girls who have been murdered. My friend's murder was horrible, just horrible. But, Kathy's was worse. My friend was DEFINITELY murdered by one person. So, the differences between my friend's horrible murder and Kathy's horrible murder make me say, "hmm.. what if.."

The police aren't stupid. They tried to solve it. Many police over the years. This is something else.

I think anything that would cause Micky Miller (who did not see the original crime scene) to call the murderer "vicious" and "vile" did some stuff that the cops who did see the crime scene wish they didn't see. And these were not novice police, they had seen many murder scenes over the years.

I don't think they could say in the press in 1969 what it was really like. I think the Scene got as close to the reality of it as will ever be said in the press.

I know a lot of people don't believe in some of the stuff you mentioned. I do. I have seen too much evidence of it and can't unknow what I learned.

 

[bessie]

This is an interesting find. Two girls in Tennessee who were abducted on the same day from the Nashville and Knoxville areas. Both areas are three hour drive apart from each other. And both girls were found similarly murdered.

I’m now wondering if Kathy was taken out of town after she was abducted. It could be possible that she was taken somewhere halfway between the Nashville and Knoxville areas.

But would he have returned her body to the area where she was abducted? That would have been very risky.

 

[nerosleuth]

Here is another case from Tennessee back about a six year old Dennis Martin who disappeared in June 1969 at Great Smokey Mountains National Park.

He has never been found since the day he disappeared. Some folks think this child was abducted and some folks think he had some kind of an accident in the park. The national park is about an hour's drive away from Knoxville.

Dennis Martin also has a thread on Websleuths.

TN TN - Dennis Martin, 6, Great Smoky Mountains Nat. Park, 14 June 1969 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


I want to mention that in 1969, the FBI was briefly involved on account that the disappearance occurred at a national park, which was a federal property.

But the FBI quickly determined that they lacked jurisdiction to be involved with the investigation.

Back in 1969, the FBI could only get involved if a person was abducted and taken across state lines.

I don't think the FBI were as involved with child disappearances in 1969 like they are today.

So I kind of doubt that the FBI were involved with the Kathy Jones and the Glenda Sirmans case.

 

[bessie]

While it could be possible that Kathy may have tried to claw or loosen something on her neck, I believe it would have left scratch marks on her neck.

I think the question here is did Kathy have long fingernails at the time of her abduction? Were there any fingernail scratch marks on her neck and were any of her fingernails broken when her body was found?

While I agree that Kathy was bound for quite a while, I also believe that Kathy was hogtied in weird positions as well.

I also think that if something was tied that tightly around her neck, there would have been abrasions or bruises other than the cuts, and that's not mentioned.

 

[December]

While it could be possible that Kathy may have tried to claw or loosen something on her neck, I believe it would have left scratch marks on her neck.

I think the question here is did Kathy have long fingernails at the time of her abduction? Were there any fingernail scratch marks on her neck and were any of her fingernails broken when her body was found?

While I agree that Kathy was bound for quite a while, I also believe that Kathy was hogtied in weird positions as well.

Yes.. the position is close to being hogtied. There is a slight variation. I have seen a photo of a position that I believe that Kathy may have been put into. (unfortunately) I will see if I can find something like I mean.. and I won't be able to post it, but maybe I can figure out a polite way to describe it.

I believe the police have seen every type of wound fingernails can cause. So, I don't think any type of wounds caused by her nails could mystify them for long. Also, like you said, there would be scratch marks as well as the cuts.

I don't know the condition of Kathy's nails, but I'll ask. I hope her nails weren't long, honestly. She would have cut her own hands with her nails due to pain and I don't want her to have to have endured any more pain than she did. I think it is unlikely that her nails were long.

But, my nails are tough and grow easily so they are longish. I have cut my hands due to clenching my fists in pain. The cuts are not "almond shaped". They are obviously caused by fingernails...crescent shaped cuts. It's not exactly the same thing, but still.. that did happen. And those cuts hurt, but they weren't very big. I'm not sure if they'd show up very well in a photo such as what was taken of Kathy.

I think they bound her hands early.. before they put anything on her neck. Murderers are squeamish about being hurt. They wouldn't want her to smack them or scratch them. Even though she couldn't really do much damage, murderers (in my experience) are huge babies and would avoid even the feeble slaps of a 12 year old girl.

 

[December]

I also think that if something was tied that tightly around her neck, there would have been abrasions or bruises other than the cuts, and that's not mentioned.

That is a good point. She would have naturally strained against it as much as she was able. It's instinctive to try to get out of some type of bindings even if it is impossible. I think the police could tell pretty easily.

 

[nerosleuth]

Here's the case of an unidentified female victim that was found in a rural area of Harlan County, Kentucky on June 2, 1969.

The area where the victim was found isn't far from the Kentucky-Virginia border and also isn't far from the Kingsport and Knoxville areas.

The unidentified victim was thought to be in her late teens or early 20's when her nude badly decomposed body was found. She was thought to have been deceased for approximately three weeks.

The victim had been beaten and had stab wounds in her chest. The victim was also punched so hard that some of her teeth rested in her throat.

No clothing, personal belongings, or identification of any kind were found near the body.

The Memorial Day holiday was pretty close to the date the victim was found.

The unidentified victim also has a thread on Websleuths.


KY KY - Harlan County (Little Shepherd Trail) - WhtFem (UP #5880), 16-22, Jun'69 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[December]

More knives! I'm going to show a katana blade.. two examples. 500,000 "samurai swords" (there are different kinds) were brought back to the U.S. after WW2. One of these is a machine made blade general issued to people in their military who did not have an ancestral blade, but were to carry a sword. The other one, I think may be machine made also, I am not sure about it. But, these would be the most common ones.

I kind of doubt the perp had a samurai sword, but then again 500,000 were somewhere in the U.S. after WW2. So, maybe he did.

(I am not sure the one that says 'handmade' is or not.. the site was a little shaky on that.)

 

[December]

Here's the case of an unidentified female victim that was found in a rural area of Harlan County, Kentucky on June 2, 1969.

The area where the victim was found isn't far from the Kentucky-Virginia border and also isn't far from the Kingsport and Knoxville areas.

The unidentified victim was thought to be in her late teens or early 20's when her nude badly decomposed body was found. She was thought to have been deceased for approximately three weeks.

The victim had been beaten and had stab wounds in her chest. The victim was also punched so hard that some of her teeth rested in her throat.

No clothing, personal belongings, or identification of any kind were found near the body.

The Memorial Day holiday was pretty close to the date the victim was found.

The unidentified victim also has a thread on Websleuths.


KY KY - Harlan County (Little Shepherd Trail) - WhtFem (UP #5880), 16-22, Jun'69 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

That poor girl. (crying)

But, that sounds like it could be the same type of murderer for sure.

I wonder if animals took all of her possessions too far from her body for them ever to be found? Or if the murderer disposed of them another way?

She is older, but maybe ..