TN TN - Kathy Jones, 12, Nashville, 29 Nov 1969 #1

[December]

After reading that Kathy attended Woodbine Elementary, I decided to find the school. Unfortunately, it's no longer in the Nashville school system and there was very little info on it. Well....I finally found it! It's currently a health center & Woodbine Community Center and is located at the corner of Burbank Ave & Oriel St. It's about four blocks from Kathy's house.

http://goo.gl/maps/9bXF3

I drove around the building looking for a cornerstone with a year - but to no avail.

thank you for checking it out. i found a photo, but idk if it is this building or not. i can't read the writing. but if it is, i will post it.

 

[December]

Waiting for the LEO to supply some answers to our questions.
Though I will admit I am not as optimistic now as I was earlier on.

From my personal experience they will take information from you.
But as far as confirming or adding to, explaining things etc in reply's is extremely rare in a ongoing investigation such as this.

Though he may just surprise us all with some answers in the future.
If he does he will only do so with approval from the higher ups.

considering the amount of time this has been under investigation.. there may be facts that were released to the press after a time. i think some of the answers to our questions may be among these facts. we are just not having nearly all of the information that even was released. this story was never much of a focus, but there were details here and there they let out along the way. some of these were just things they did not know the first day or so... but not a huge secret either.

i have not received a call back, but maybe this means he is working on the case. it is pretty detailed.

i don't expect to get any secret information or anything though.

 

[December]

Another possibility is that the person living at that house may have been a tennant who rented that house. There could have been rental houses in that area.

maybe, but idk...

i'm not sure what difference that would make in hearing something?

 

[December]

I believe this is the former Woodbine Elementary. Now Woodbine Community Center.

 

[bessie]

maybe, but idk...

i'm not sure what difference that would make in hearing something?

It goes to recreating the block on Grandview in order to pinpoint the exact size and location of the vacant lot. Finding an address for the neighbor who lived next to the lot could help in that regard. Was her house on the McClain side of the lot? And how close to McClain was her house? Or was her house on the opposite side, closer to Thompson? If she were a renter, however, then her name won't show up in property records. I believe that was NS's point.

 

[Searchin']

I believe this is the former Woodbine Elementary. Now Woodbine Community Center.

Thanks for posting the school photos. I believe I found smaller versions of those. Photo #1 appears to be what was the original main entrance to the school. I appreciate the fact that they put the name "Woodbine" above the arch. That was my clue that I had found the correct place.

 

[bessie]

I will try to get info about the search.

here is whaI think is the correct info...

when the search started and why.

names associated with the search mentioned in papers.
i think thee banner talked to the guy who ordered the search so that guy would know those facts. I imagine those were recorded correctly.

There is something else though.. about the fieldI will try to find out i

I'm confused, December. What else are you trying to find out about the search? Whether the lot had been searched prior to Tuesday, December 2? What else could be relevant?

 

[nola]

It goes to recreating the block on Grandview in order to pinpoint the exact size and location of the vacant lot. Finding an address for the neighbor who lived next to the lot could help in that regard. Was her house on the McClain side of the lot? And how close to McClain was her house? Or was her house on the opposite side, closer to Thompson? If she were a renter, however, then her name won't show up in property records. I believe that was NS's point.

I'm also wondering if other neighbors were interviewed. It appears (from the 1951 aerial) that there were several residences all along Grandview and even on Nolensville that would have or could have witnessed a vehicle or something that weekend. Anything these people might have seen could have lead LE to who was involved in activity around the empty lot that night. But only the one neighbor (M Mc) is quoted. hmmmmm.

 

[Backwoods]

i don't think so. the other ones all match.

this field was just a place to leave her. it was done fast. it didn't need to be that remote.

they wanted her to be found.--- i might have more info on that angle soon.

i don't know why, but they did.

I still don't know what to believe about how and "why this way?" -- but just some thoughts:

The perp(s) could have attacked Kathy on that site and just left her when they were "done".

She could have been left -- or placed -- there as some kind of "taunt" -- but to whom...?

Left at the actual attack site, or placed there from somewhere else, I think it is possible that she was still alive at that point. Or -- she may have been abandoned there partly because she died.

I hope maybe some more definite info about time of death/cause of death will turn up in your searching, December -- and maybe a little clearer idea of how those things were determined (if there is more to it than we already know).

 

[Backwoods]

yes... I have thought about that.. I will see what the police think, I guess.

the people who were most upset about speaking about it are mostly dead by now.

but, no one likes to talk about it. and no one knows much. it is frustrating. my immediate family wasn't in Nashville then. different ones of us have lived in Nashville, but iI don't think any of us did in 1969.

so, if they want to interview a family member we can not say much. because we do not know.

there are a couple of people who are closer but they only know what they have been told.

but maybe.

it is very hard to explain, really, without going into a long story.

bbm: Understood. (I really am not trying to pry.)

One thing I did want to ask you -- has crossed my mind a few times and now I am reminded again: Did you ever hear of any family members being contacted by someone claiming knowledge of what happened, being threatened in any way by telephone, mail, etc. after Kathy's death? Any kind of weird communication?

I know you might not know whether anything like that happened.

Just wondered, since some family members said it was "dangerous" to talk or think too much about what happened. (They could, as you suggested might be the case, have been speaking more about the emotional danger, etc., I know)

 

[Backwoods]

Another question, December:

Do you know if Kathy's family attended church and/or any type of community club, etc.?

I hate to think of a church as being a possible spot for an attack to take place (if it was not at the vacant lot), but I was looking at maps from back then last night and I saw a good many churches there in Kathy's neighborhood and it just came to mind. It also could connect up if this was by chance an attack by someone she knew and wouldn't immediately have been frightened of.

Those maps I mentioned -- aaackk! I spent a lot of the wee hours last night/early this morning (I'm meaning Sunday night/Monday morning here) looking at historical Geographical Survey Maps for the area. They just about drove me crazy!

First, wouldn't you know it, the Woodbine and Thompson Lane/Grandview Ave. areas happen to lie right where several map quadrangles connect, so it was really hard to decide which quadrangle(s) gave the best look for our purposes.

And of course, me not being too familiar with Nashville, and those types of maps being what they are and pretty intricate and hard to follow even when you DO know an area, I spent the first hour or so of looking just plain LOST.

Then I had trouble deciding which year of these multiple historical maps (aerial photo year/field check year etc.) would be best...

And then, wouldn't you know, it turned out that much of the area we would want to see was shaded "red", which means that the little blocks and drawings that represent houses, buildings, etc. -- and which I thought might be helpful to us -- were limited to "landmark buildings" (such as churches! that's why I noticed them).

So, I had a pretty frustrating foray, all in all, and ended up not knowing which map(s) to link here.

There was some interesting stuff -- in my wonderings across Nashville (before I found the right area, LOL), I noticed that drive-ins were labeled, for one thing. And I saw the school indicated (Kathy's elementary school).

I had thought I would come back earlier today and narrow it down to one or two of the maps I looked at and post the links, but I didn't get a chance -- and now, I'm really tired and the prospect of struggling with those PDFs again seems too daunting. I will TRY to do it in the next day or two, in case anyone wants to take a look.

 

[nola]

bbm: Understood. (I really am not trying to pry.)

One thing I did want to ask you -- has crossed my mind a few times and now I am reminded again: Did you ever hear of any family members being contacted by someone claiming knowledge of what happened, being threatened in any way by telephone, mail, etc. after Kathy's death? Any kind of weird communication?

I know you might not know whether anything like that happened.

Just wondered, since some family members said it was "dangerous" to talk or think too much about what happened. (They could, as you suggested might be the case, have been speaking more about the emotional danger, etc., I know)

Backwoods, I like this question --- this did happen in the Marcia Trimble case. There were ransom calls and other tips called into the the family during the time she was missing. One that pointed in the general direction of the area where the now known killer lived.

 

[December]

I'm confused, December. What else are you trying to find out about the search? Whether the lot had been searched prior to Tuesday, December 2? What else could be relevant?

Yes, if it had been searched already, of course. It seems like it would be one of the first places searched and they did have the chance to search it in the daylight.. not just at night.

But, there are other things that could be relevant. Sometimes people look places because other people told them to look there.. this particularly happens with places that have already been searched.

So, there are a couple of things.

There may be something else.. maybe someone was a suspect, but I do not know that or anything... just speculating.

But, when I talked to the police, there was some study of the search going on..and I can't explain better than that without more information.

 

[December]

It goes to recreating the block on Grandview in order to pinpoint the exact size and location of the vacant lot. Finding an address for the neighbor who lived next to the lot could help in that regard. Was her house on the McClain side of the lot? And how close to McClain was her house? Or was her house on the opposite side, closer to Thompson? If she were a renter, however, then her name won't show up in property records. I believe that was NS's point.

Oh, o.k.

Wouldn't it be easier to try to figure out who owns the vacant lot? And if they've owned it the whole time?

If you're looking at property records.

It would have to be resurveyed if any parts of it were sold.

The only exception would be if the same person owns it who owns something right beside it and it is more just a vacant part of one property and then it could be partially developed.

But, you can't sell any part of a property without having the tract resurveyed. This would show up in the property records.

 

[December]

Thanks for posting the school photos. I believe I found smaller versions of those. Photo #1 appears to be what was the original main entrance to the school. I appreciate the fact that they put the name "Woodbine" above the arch. That was my clue that I had found the correct place.

I actually had photos of a different place allegedly in the area. Then your search helped me find the right photos.

 

[December]

I'm also wondering if other neighbors were interviewed. It appears (from the 1951 aerial) that there were several residences all along Grandview and even on Nolensville that would have or could have witnessed a vehicle or something that weekend. Anything these people might have seen could have lead LE to who was involved in activity around the empty lot that night. But only the one neighbor (M Mc) is quoted. hmmmmm.

Interviewed by the Banner and interviewed by the police are two different things.

If any media comes to my door I am not talking to them EVER. They can seriously take a hike. I won't believe what they tell me the reason is for this story and probably I don't know anything anyway.

But, if the police come to my door, I will talk to them. I probably don't know anything anyway, but this might actually be relevant to their investigation.. that I live where I live and I don't know anything.

Surely, I can't be the only one who feels this way? Especially IRT something so depressingly sad. So, some people might have just been too upset to talk about it unless they felt it was needed.

 

[December]

I still don't know what to believe about how and "why this way?" -- but just some thoughts:

The perp(s) could have attacked Kathy on that site and just left her when they were "done".

She could have been left -- or placed -- there as some kind of "taunt" -- but to whom...?

Left at the actual attack site, or placed there from somewhere else, I think it is possible that she was still alive at that point. Or -- she may have been abandoned there partly because she died.

I hope maybe some more definite info about time of death/cause of death will turn up in your searching, December -- and maybe a little clearer idea of how those things were determined (if there is more to it than we already know).

I have very delicately talked around this..

But, yes, it is logical to think that they attacked her then and there and raped her every which way and cut her with knives and so forth.. and alll of this went on with no one hearing or seeing because it was freezing cold night and everyone was inside. And when they were done they just sauntered off.

But, the reason I think despite whatever else that it didn't happen that way was the condition of her body. That is why I do not think she was dead and lying in the lot since Nov. 29.

Anyone would have been able to have seen the difference between a person dead about a day and a person dead a few days. It was only very cold at night. during the day... it warmed up to even 53 degrees one day.

In Tennessee, we still have insects and birds in December. So, those would have done their work on her (I mean external insects, not ones found only in autopsy.) Birds would have pecked at her eyes.

She would have frozen and thawed a couple of times.

There are cats and dogs that could have gotten to her. There are even other types of creatures people do not consider to be part of a city, but they exist in Nashville. I saw a possum over east once in the 90s. (That's East Nashville I forget the street, but behind an old, old house that was occupied.) then there are mice and rats.

Glenda Sirmans also disappeared 11/29 and her clothing was scattered to the four winds by dogs. She was in such bad shape from animals, etc. that they didn't know if she was even sexually assaulted.

But, all of Kathy's clothing (except maybe her street shoes) was there including light things like her panties. A strong breeze could have probably blown those away, but let's say they were caught on something.

No one reported anything being dragged up to their door by their pets because it was all there with her. Her playing cards were there or mostly there.

This is why I do not think she was in the lot all of that time and I think anyone who examined her would have seen she was not. I do not know why the crime happened as it did.

I wish it had happened quickly and she had been found quickly and all of that. so it is actually painful to me to read over and over everyone who has a theory that makes more sense than mine.

I am sorry. I am not trying to be rude. i appreicate everyone's help.

but, am i just insane here or would a body lying there be so much worse condition?

This isn't like those two poor girls in Chicago who were frozen because it was not as cold where Kathy was.

And it is not like Marcia either because she was in a garage so she was protected from some things. Kathy wasn't. she was right out there.

maybe the guy who did the exam was stupid. i do not know, but i can't believe he was THAT stupid.

ETA
Glenda wasn't discovered until Dec. 14. So, I thought it wasn't quite that long. So I guess that would make less time


I'm sorry. I'm just having a hard time right now...

 

[December]

bbm: Understood. (I really am not trying to pry.)

One thing I did want to ask you -- has crossed my mind a few times and now I am reminded again: Did you ever hear of any family members being contacted by someone claiming knowledge of what happened, being threatened in any way by telephone, mail, etc. after Kathy's death? Any kind of weird communication?

I know you might not know whether anything like that happened.

Just wondered, since some family members said it was "dangerous" to talk or think too much about what happened. (They could, as you suggested might be the case, have been speaking more about the emotional danger, etc., I know)

I do not know.

They seemed scared.

I think some others didn't know the reason any more than I do. So, for them it was more 'emotionally dangerous'.

But, I really do not know.

I'm sorry.

 

[December]

Another question, December:

Do you know if Kathy's family attended church and/or any type of community club, etc.?

I hate to think of a church as being a possible spot for an attack to take place (if it was not at the vacant lot), but I was looking at maps from back then last night and I saw a good many churches there in Kathy's neighborhood and it just came to mind. It also could connect up if this was by chance an attack by someone she knew and wouldn't immediately have been frightened of.

Those maps I mentioned -- aaackk! I spent a lot of the wee hours last night/early this morning (I'm meaning Sunday night/Monday morning here) looking at historical Geographical Survey Maps for the area. They just about drove me crazy!

First, wouldn't you know it, the Woodbine and Thompson Lane/Grandview Ave. areas happen to lie right where several map quadrangles connect, so it was really hard to decide which quadrangle(s) gave the best look for our purposes.

And of course, me not being too familiar with Nashville, and those types of maps being what they are and pretty intricate and hard to follow even when you DO know an area, I spent the first hour or so of looking just plain LOST.

Then I had trouble deciding which year of these multiple historical maps (aerial photo year/field check year etc.) would be best...

And then, wouldn't you know, it turned out that much of the area we would want to see was shaded "red", which means that the little blocks and drawings that represent houses, buildings, etc. -- and which I thought might be helpful to us -- were limited to "landmark buildings" (such as churches! that's why I noticed them).

So, I had a pretty frustrating foray, all in all, and ended up not knowing which map(s) to link here.

There was some interesting stuff -- in my wonderings across Nashville (before I found the right area, LOL), I noticed that drive-ins were labeled, for one thing. And I saw the school indicated (Kathy's elementary school).

I had thought I would come back earlier today and narrow it down to one or two of the maps I looked at and post the links, but I didn't get a chance -- and now, I'm really tired and the prospect of struggling with those PDFs again seems too daunting. I will TRY to do it in the next day or two, in case anyone wants to take a look.

I do not know if there was a community center back then. There might have been, but I am leaning toward no. But, I could be wrong about that.

They did go to church, but I do not know where for sure.

My grandparents were Church of Christ, but I do not think Nora was a CofC. My parents were Methodist. And I think there is a Methodist church on those map. I don't remember seeing a CoC (as close, I'm sure there was one). There is also at least one Baptist church right in that area.

I cannot remember what church they went to other than some variety of Protestant.

However, when I was a little girl, I went to other churches with my friends sometimes. A church would explain why they had to move her as people would be going there on Sunday except they moved her after that...

But, there are a lot of churches and I did look at that. I also wondered if some of those churches maybe weren't in use because there seemed to be a lot of the same kind right in that area.

By the time I wandered through that area, I did not get the impression that there were as many churches as show up on these old maps and things like that. So, I don't know if I didn't notice them or what. Some may have been old smaller type churches rather than big churches since the big churches were all downtown.

I have also been trying to work on the angle of old building. I thought i had found one, but it burned to the ground about ten years too early. by 1969, something else was probably on its location.

 

[December]

Backwoods, I like this question --- this did happen in the Marcia Trimble case. There were ransom calls and other tips called into the the family during the time she was missing. One that pointed in the general direction of the area where the now known killer lived.

Marcia being missing for so long and getting so much more publicity probably caused some of that as some of it was obviously totally unrelated to the murderer.

I do not know if anyone outside of Kathy's family and the police and a few people in Woodbine had any idea she didn't come home 11/29. There may have been a small article about the search going on before she was found (maybe.. IDK), but that would have been about all there would have been. And she was found so much faster than Marcia.

There were some tips called into the police, but IDK more than that about those.

IDK about tips called in to Nora. she moved, so that might have made a difference there.

IDK about ransom calls, but I never heard anything about such a thing. That's the kind of thing that might have been mentioned, too. So, I'd guess there weren't any.

ETA
The night Marcia went missing, they ran a story about her on TV news. This probably made a big difference in public interest.