TN TN - Kathy Jones, 12, Nashville, 29 Nov 1969 #1

[December]

i have wondered what they did expect to find with their search. not what they did find, surely.

but, did they think she was alive?

did they think maybe she was hurt and couldn't get home? or call out?

i have tried to think... what would you think? nothing this bad had happened before in Nashville. even though there have been some very bad child murders since, this one might still be the worst. although not everyone heard about it. i think quite a few people did and their expectations may have started to change that 'missing' could mean something much worse than a forgotten curfew.

i just keep trying to think what did they expect to find? i am sure a few thought she might be dead, but did most people?

did they walk around calling for her?

 

[Searchin']

Marcia being missing for so long and getting so much more publicity probably caused some of that as some of it was obviously totally unrelated to the murderer.

I do not know if anyone outside of Kathy's family and the police and a few people in Woodbine had any idea she didn't come home 11/29. There may have been a small article about the search going on before she was found (maybe.. IDK), but that would have been about all there would have been. And she was found so much faster than Marcia.

There were some tips called into the police, but IDK more than that about those.

IDK about tips called in to Nora. she moved, so that might have made a difference there.

IDK about ransom calls, but I never heard anything about such a thing. That's the kind of thing that might have been mentioned, too. So, I'd guess there weren't any.

ETA
The night Marcia went missing, they ran a story about her on TV news. This probably made a big difference in public interest.

Speaking of Marcia....I've read that the garage had been searched beforehand and found nothing suspicious. It was speculated that they held her (or her body) elsewhere before it was found under the plastic pool in the garage.

 

[December]

Speaking of Marcia....I've read that the garage had been searched beforehand and found nothing suspicious. It was speculated that they held her (or her body) elsewhere before it was found under the plastic pool in the garage.

I remember hearing that speculation as the garage was searched more than once.

i know mostly old info about that case.
i heard it was solved and i was very glad to hear that.

i do know that 'solved' doesn't mean all of the questions get answered since there are a few unanswered questions about my friend's case (nothing that would make her murderer innocent, just small things). because the problem is either the murderer offers a scenario (that makes them look as innocent as possible). but murderers are liars. or the murderer says nothing about any subject at all except they don't know why they are here in court today.

i don't think Marcia was there the first time they searched the garage. it seems like they searched more than twice, but i'dI'd have to look back through it to be sure.

murderers do weird things. but they do sometimes bring the victim back to where they were taken (or close). maybe just because it causes the police to spend some time looking at an area that is unrelated to the crime?

 

[December]

I don't really think victims are usually left as 'taunts' to police unless there is a serial killer/communication with police thing going on which is kind of obvious.

i think murder victims get moved from their place of death to another location for a lot of reasons.

in Kathy's case, she was brought back to the area she was known to be headed. not exactly where she was going, but close.

in a case like that, i think it is to focus the police's attention on that area. so, the police are knocking on doors around there (which is still reasonable as the murderer was there part of the time) instead of possibly knocking on doors around where the killer lives. this might be true even if the killer lives kind of nearby, just not in that immediate vicinity.

depending on the crime, it can also be done to terrorize a neighborhood. this wouldn't be your run of the mill murderer doing such a thing. I'm just saying.

sometimes it's done to more effectively hide a body, but in this case, iI don't think that applies.

 

[bessie]

Speaking of Marcia....I've read that the garage had been searched beforehand and found nothing suspicious. It was speculated that they held her (or her body) elsewhere before it was found under the plastic pool in the garage.

The debate in MT's case was over some of the same issues at question here.


Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - TN TN - Kathy Jones, 12, murdered while walking to Nashville skating rink, November 1969


Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - TN TN - Kathy Jones, 12, murdered while walking to Nashville skating rink, November 1969


Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - TN TN - Kathy Jones, 12, murdered while walking to Nashville skating rink, November 1969


Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - TN TN - Kathy Jones, 12, murdered while walking to Nashville skating rink, November 1969


Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - TN TN - Kathy Jones, 12, murdered while walking to Nashville skating rink, November 1969

 

[bessie]

Here are just a few articles that might be of interest:

Our results prove that it is possible to find a persistence of rigor mortis that is much longer than the expected when environmental conditions resemble average outdoor winter temperatures in temperate zones. Therefore, this datum must be considered when a corpse is found in those environmental conditions so that when estimating the time of death, we are not misled by the long persistence of rigor mortis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15541589

http://forensicmd.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/early-postmortem-changes1.pdf

http://forensicpathologyonline.com/printpdf/26

ETA: For reference

http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KBNA/1969/11/30/DailyHistory.html

 

[nola]

Here are just a few articles that might be of interest:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15541589

http://forensicmd.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/early-postmortem-changes1.pdf

http://forensicpathologyonline.com/printpdf/26

Great info!
Snipped from your second article...
Livor Mortis (Hypostasis)
Livor mortis is the result of the cessation of cardiac activity and the settling of blood in the capillaries and venules, thus distending them, in the dependent parts of the body. The dependent engorged blood vessels impart a purple-blue color to the overlying skin with the exception of those parts of the body serving as ‘pressure points.’ As an example, if someone dies in a supine position (resting on their back) livor mortis will develop on their back with the exception of the shoulder blades, buttocks, calves and heels. It is these parts of the body, which are supporting its weight and thus are referred to as ‘pressure points.’

We were questioning earlier whether or not the bruising could have been mistaken for livor mortis. This clears that up. Thanks Bessie.

 

[December]

Great info!
Snipped from your second article...
Livor Mortis (Hypostasis)
Livor mortis is the result of the cessation of cardiac activity and the settling of blood in the capillaries and venules, thus distending them, in the dependent parts of the body. The dependent engorged blood vessels impart a purple-blue color to the overlying skin with the exception of those parts of the body serving as ‘pressure points.’ As an example, if someone dies in a supine position (resting on their back) livor mortis will develop on their back with the exception of the shoulder blades, buttocks, calves and heels. It is these parts of the body, which are supporting its weight and thus are referred to as ‘pressure points.’

We were questioning earlier whether or not the bruising could have been mistaken for livor mortis. This clears that up. Thanks Bessie.

I have said before I believe some of the bruising in some places was intensified by livor mortis. However, there were some other bruises that weren't in those places. i will try to get information about those and about how long bruises of those types would take to appear.

i really believe she had bruises also in places that would be affected by livor mortis, but these would be cataloged more as injuries ... i don't know how to explain. just that two things were happening in that location, but it is too difficult to separate out which is which.

however... it may be some of this was easier to discern than i think. i guess it depends on how long she had been there. she may have died in a different position for all i know.

 

[Backwoods]

Not sure whether there has been any discussion of mentions of Kathy's case in the the book, A Season of Darkness -- which, I believe, deals mostly with the Marcia Trimble case?

The googlebooks search linked below (and I hope it is OK to link and will link correctly) shows Kathy discussed a bit at two points in the book. Hit "view all" to see both excerpts. In the longer one, the name of the Civil Defense worker who found Kathy is given.

http://books.google.com/books?id=3M...v=onepage&q="kathy jones" 1969 murder&f=false

 

[December]

Here are just a few articles that might be of interest:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15541589

http://forensicmd.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/early-postmortem-changes1.pdf

http://forensicpathologyonline.com/printpdf/26

ETA: For reference

http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KBNA/1969/11/30/DailyHistory.html

the day times were so much warmer than i expected them to be. except for 11/29/69 when the high was only in the mid forties (and it doesn't count since she was seen alive during that time period), the temperatures were in the fifties.

i orginally thought 1969 was a particularly cold winter. but, i am too young to know this from memory. so, if it was, the cold hadn't really come to Nashville yet in the relevant time period. except for the night of 11/29/69.. the temperatures were in the 30s. so, days in the 50s and nights in the 30s... it seems more like autumn temperatures. which, to me, explains maybe why she set out on her walk.. it had been such mild weather, mostly.

if someone is dead and on a cold surface, i understand how some of these temps are maybe not that warm. but, is it really how most people would characterize 'winter'? i'm asking... on another thread, people are talking about lakes freezing so you can drive your car on it, so compared to that kind of winter...

 

[December]

Not sure whether there has been any discussion of mentions of Kathy's case in the the book, A Season of Darkness -- which, I believe, deals mostly with the Marcia Trimble case?

The googlebooks search linked below (and I hope it is OK to link and will link correctly) shows Kathy discussed a bit at two points in the book. Hit "view all" to see both excerpts. In the longer one, the name of the Civil Defense worker who found Kathy is given.

http://books.google.com/books?id=3M...v=onepage&q="kathy jones" 1969 murder&f=false

thank you for the excerpt.

he is named in a couple of the newspaper articles we have as well.

 

[Backwoods]

thank you for the excerpt.

he is named in a couple of the newspaper articles we have as well.

Sorry, I did not remember that he was.

ETA: Someone needs to write a book about Kathy!

 

[December]

Sorry, I did not remember that he was.

ETA: Someone needs to write a book about Kathy!

i don't remember his name, but i remember us talking about him and wondering if he was questioned by police.

i know it is hard to tell it from my rambling sometimes, but i am a professional writer. (sigh) maybe i will if this is ever figured out. but, it is so sad. i honestly feel guilty sometimes.

 

[December]

http://www.aaanimalcontrol.com/professional-trapper/wildlife/tn-nashville-wildlife.htm

here is a page about some of the creatures running around Nashville year round. this doesn't even include people's pets or birds. we have quite a few birds year round. some go farther south, but some we are far enough south for them to just stay here. some of those are things like crows. so...

i have seen lots of squirrels and a possum in Nashville. Rats, omg. idk. i have seen mice though.

 

[December]

http://crossville-chronicle.com/gladesun/x1569785335/ENJOYING-NATURE-Animals-in-winter/print

a happier article about creatures in winter

 

[Backwoods]

i don't remember his name, but i remember us talking about him and wondering if he was questioned by police.

i know it is hard to tell it from my rambling sometimes, but i am a professional writer. (sigh) maybe i will if this is ever figured out. but, it is so sad. i honestly feel guilty sometimes.

No, you express yourself well, December -- not hard for me to believe you write professionally -- probably just "let your hair down" a little here, which is good to have a place to do sometimes!

Guilty? Why? Do you mean for delving into the subject?

 

[bessie]

the day times were so much warmer than i expected them to be. except for 11/29/69 when the high was only in the mid forties (and it doesn't count since she was seen alive during that time period), the temperatures were in the fifties.

i orginally thought 1969 was a particularly cold winter. but, i am too young to know this from memory. so, if it was, the cold hadn't really come to Nashville yet in the relevant time period. except for the night of 11/29/69.. the temperatures were in the 30s. so, days in the 50s and nights in the 30s... it seems more like autumn temperatures. which, to me, explains maybe why she set out on her walk.. it had been such mild weather, mostly.

if someone is dead and on a cold surface, i understand how some of these temps are maybe not that warm. but, is it really how most people would characterize 'winter'? i'm asking... on another thread, people are talking about lakes freezing so you can drive your car on it, so compared to that kind of winter...

Temps were average. Check the charts and graphs. Temperatures were in the low 50's for roughly 4-5 hours during the day. Lows at night dipped into the 20's, but weren't sustained long enough to freeze a body. Mean temps in the 30's, average dew point in the 20's, and average humidity in the upper 50's. Conditions were favorable to *advertiser censored* decomposition. IMO.

http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KBNA/1969/11/30/DailyHistory.html

 

[Backwoods]

i have wondered what they did expect to find with their search. not what they did find, surely.

but, did they think she was alive?

did they think maybe she was hurt and couldn't get home? or call out?

i have tried to think... what would you think? nothing this bad had happened before in Nashville. even though there have been some very bad child murders since, this one might still be the worst. although not everyone heard about it. i think quite a few people did and their expectations may have started to change that 'missing' could mean something much worse than a forgotten curfew.

i just keep trying to think what did they expect to find? i am sure a few thought she might be dead, but did most people?

did they walk around calling for her?

I imagine they were searching for...whatever was there to find.

They may have called out her name.

They may have also been looking for anything she might have dropped, any signs of blood or a struggle anywhere, and maybe informally questioning folks along her supposed route.

I expect they were somewhat prepared to find her perhaps injured or even deceased, but I agree that they probably were not completely prepared to find her where they did and in that condition. Who could prepare for that, completely.

 

[bessie]

Sorry, I did not remember that he was.

ETA: Someone needs to write a book about Kathy!

He describes finding Kathy's body here.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9dpNu3jLO3tZGpUV0lvMnY4RnM/edit?usp=sharing


Re: book about Kathy, I second the motion.

 

[December]

No, you express yourself well, December -- not hard for me to believe you write professionally -- probably just "let your hair down" a little here, which is good to have a place to do sometimes!

Guilty? Why? Do you mean for delving into the subject?

thank you.

guilty because it is a sad thing to make other people think about.