TN TN - Kathy Jones, 12, Nashville, 29 Nov 1969 #1

[December]

http://www.leelofland.com/wordpress/jonathan-hayes-notes-on-forensic-medicine-smell/

people would have noticed this... right behind km especially

 

[Backwoods]

December, something I've been wondering: The Banner article says Kathy had her dollar to pay for admission for skating. From you, and I think maybe in some of the other media accounts, we've heard that her $1 was for treats, specifically from Krispy Kreme.

Here's what I want to know -- do you feel pretty sure that it was known that Kathy planned a trip to KK? I mean, do you think she and her mother discussed how she would spend the money, specifically mentioning KK, or was it more like "for a treat, wherever", maybe including something available at the Rollerdrome?

I just got to thinking that MAYBE the story that she planned to stop in at KK developed after her body was found behind there -- just on an assumption or a theory that KK must have been, therefore, where she wanted to spend her money.

Now you may know FOR SURE that KK was the plan -- not doubting you, at all -- but just wondered if you have any feeling that "fact" might be something that "came down" through the years but might not be definite. Just wanting your take on this.

 

[Backwoods]

He describes finding Kathy's body here.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9dpNu3jLO3tZGpUV0lvMnY4RnM/edit?usp=sharing


Re: book about Kathy, I second the motion.

I still wish we knew what those rectangular things on the ground are, in the Banner picture of Kathy's covered body.

 

[Backwoods]

Also, December -- I keep remembering little things I've wanted to ask -- do you have any idea if Kathy went skating at Rollerdrome pretty often? (I know early in the thread you said she had been before -- wondering if it was a fairly regular activity.)

I know she had the new (to her) skates that she was eager to use, so I'm thinking, if she'd been at other times, she either rented skates or had some older ones of her own.

 

[bessie]

I still wish we knew what those rectangular things on the ground are, in the Banner picture of Kathy's covered body.

I don't believe they're evidence, but something placed on the ground by LE. They could be markers to show where evidence lay before it was removed. Or, they could be covering footprints left by the killer.

 

[December]

December, something I've been wondering: The Banner article says Kathy had her dollar to pay for admission for skating. From you, and I think maybe in some of the other media accounts, we've heard that her $1 was for treats, specifically from Krispy Kreme.

Here's what I want to know -- do you feel pretty sure that it was known that Kathy planned a trip to KK? I mean, do you think she and her mother discussed how she would spend the money, specifically mentioning KK, or was it more like "for a treat, wherever", maybe including something available at the Rollerdrome?

I just got to thinking that MAYBE the story that she planned to stop in at KK developed after her body was found behind there -- just on an assumption or a theory that KK must have been, therefore, where she wanted to spend her money.

Now you may know FOR SURE that KK was the plan -- not doubting you, at all -- but just wondered if you have any feeling that "fact" might be something that "came down" through the years but might not be definite. Just wanting your take on this.

I have always heard that she intended to go there and that was what the dollar was for. It always seemed like there was a discussion about this, not that it was an after the fact thing someone surmised.

However, who knows really? I have set out places and changed my mind before I got there of what I was going to do.

She had her skates, so she was going to go skating. I would take that as definite. Krispy Kreme, even if she told Nora she was going there and would spend her dollar there, she might have changed her mind before the night was over if the night had gone normally.

Just because she was found behind the KK doesn't mean the killer had any knowledge she planned to go there. It may have been the closest vacant lot (that provided a bit of cover) to the Rollerdrome.

I think maybe the kids who went to the skating rink went over the the KK for doughnuts pretty frequently. So, there's that.

In that it wound up being really cold that night though, some hot chocolate might have sounded really good to her after she was finished skating.

I don't know what, if any, treats were at the RD. I know HD had a snack bar, but I don't know anything about what RD offered other than skating and the bus.

 

[December]

Also, December -- I keep remembering little things I've wanted to ask -- do you have any idea if Kathy went skating at Rollerdrome pretty often? (I know early in the thread you said she had been before -- wondering if it was a fairly regular activity.)

I know she had the new (to her) skates that she was eager to use, so I'm thinking, if she'd been at other times, she either rented skates or had some older ones of her own.

she had been before.

some report said she hadn't been "in a while", but who knows what "a while" is? a couple of weeks? a few days? a month? there is no way to know what that even means. so, as close as I can come is she went regularly for some amount of time. then she missed some time. now she was going back.

she just rented skates, i think. this is why she was so excited to get her own pair of skates. you can imagine the difference in her skating this might have made as well as how much nicer they would be to wear.

 

[nola]

http://www.leelofland.com/wordpress/jonathan-hayes-notes-on-forensic-medicine-smell/

people would have noticed this... right behind km especially

Q&A from this site...

CJC says:
May 20, 2009 at 5:18 pm
With the temperature staying around 75 deg F how soon would a body begin to smell after death? I hope to alleave the concerns of a friend on how long her mother may have lain dead without discovery. There was no smell of decaying. Could it have been as long as 5 days or would two days be enough for the smell of decomposition to be evident? This is a tough one to search on the internet.

Lee Lofland says:
May 20, 2009 at 10:05 pm
CJC – I sent your question to DP Lyle, M.D.

Dr. Lyle is the author of Forensics, A Guide For Writers and Forensics for Dummies. Here’s his reply:

Under those conditions a faint musty odor would appear in about 24 hours and by 48 the odor of decomposition would be easy to detect. It would then increase from there and by about 96 hours would be very strong. SO if an odor of decay was detected, the body could be 24 hours old or more.


I have submitted a similar question with Kathy's circumstances (up to 72 hours at temps ranging from 20s overnight and 50s during the day) -- will share if I get a reply.

 

[nola]

she had been before.

some report said she hadn't been "in a while", but who knows what "a while" is? a couple of weeks? a few days? a month? there is no way to know what that even means. so, as close as I can come is she went regularly for some amount of time. then she missed some time. now she was going back.

she just rented skates, i think. this is why she was so excited to get her own pair of skates. you can imagine the difference in her skating this might have made as well as how much nicer they would be to wear.

It makes me mad as H*LL to realize that she most likely NEVER got the thrill of skating in her new skates!

 

[bessie]

Something I've been meaning to mention, the AWRD building was large, at least two stories. In addition to the skating rink, the owner also ran an insulation business at the same location. I read somewhere that the second floor was used for baton twirling classes, too. One would ASSume the entire facility was well-searched, but I think it's a good question to ask if you get the opportunity, December. A building like that could have lots of nooks and crannies.

 

[December]

Q&A from this site...

CJC says:
May 20, 2009 at 5:18 pm
With the temperature staying around 75 deg F how soon would a body begin to smell after death? I hope to alleave the concerns of a friend on how long her mother may have lain dead without discovery. There was no smell of decaying. Could it have been as long as 5 days or would two days be enough for the smell of decomposition to be evident? This is a tough one to search on the internet.

Lee Lofland says:
May 20, 2009 at 10:05 pm
CJC – I sent your question to DP Lyle, M.D.

Dr. Lyle is the author of Forensics, A Guide For Writers and Forensics for Dummies. Here’s his reply:

Under those conditions a faint musty odor would appear in about 24 hours and by 48 the odor of decomposition would be easy to detect. It would then increase from there and by about 96 hours would be very strong. SO if an odor of decay was detected, the body could be 24 hours old or more.


I have submitted a similar question with Kathy's circumstances (up to 72 hours at temps ranging from 20s overnight and 50s during the day) -- will share if I get a reply.

O.k....

I guess it is also a possibility she was alive after the murderer thought she was dead. I mean barely alive.. but alive enough not to decompose.

ETA
Wasn't it only in the 20s the first night then in the 30s? That is a big temperature jump is all...

 

[December]

It makes me mad as H*LL to realize that she most likely NEVER got the thrill of skating in her new skates!

Unless she made it there that night and skated, she did not.

There is a very slight possibility she did. I hope so.

 

[December]

Something I've been meaning to mention, the AWRD building was large, at least two stories. In addition to the skating rink, the owner also ran an insulation business at the same location. I read somewhere that the second floor was used for baton twirling classes, too. One would ASSume the entire facility was well-searched, but I think it's a good question to ask if you get the opportunity, December. A building like that could have lots of nooks and crannies.

I posted a few photos of it.. some of it as H H Gregg warehouse and some of it as Performance Studios (as it is currently).

I hadn't realized it was two stories, but now that I think about it.. I think they mention that in the Performance Studios commercials.

Interesting all of the things the building had it in when it was a roller skating ring!

I have reason to believe the search was pretty thorough. but the problem is they thought she was alive. Still .. they might have searched that building thinking she was hiding in it somewhere since they thought she had run away from home. (This would be the searchers for the civil patrol.)

 

[December]

BTW, I found out that Flat Rock officially changed its name to Woodbine in 1939.

Searching these names there are a lot of places called Flat Rock around North America (and probably other places). There may be even MORE places called Woodbine! IDK if that is in any way significant, but I learned it.. so (shrug).

 

[December]

I talked to the police yesterday... I have permission to share this.. brace yourselves.

There was an autopsy.

 

[December]

I am going to email the police a few of our suspects. I will list the ones I send in case anyone has any very good possibilities.

He told me that if some information comes in, then they pull out the cold case and look at it. Obviously, I don't want to send anything that is total b.s., but a few I think are real possibilities.. and some are in prison, so it should be pretty easy for the police to get their information and see if it is anything relevant.

Yesterday, Kathy's file WAS being looked at...so..

But, if anyone has any really good ideas..

The suspect needs to be in Nashville Thanksgiving weekend 1969 (11/29/69... Saturday) and a violent rapist. VERY violent rapist. Especially if he uses bondage. Remember she had wounds from probably a knife (IMO) as well as everything else. So, a rapist who will use a weapon, bind his victim, and violently rape her every which way. Who might like a 12 year old girl or mistake such a girl for a woman. (P.S., she didn't look like a woman, but maybe from the back in the dark?)

Kathy had short blonde hair and blue eyes. I believe her hair was dark blonde, but IDK how it looked at night. But, from my experience (granted I am a woman and maybe more observant of hair), you can tell dark blonde hair is blonde even at night. She had a coat/jacket (probably a short coat), a white blouse and bobbie socks. I don't know for sure if she had a skirt or pants, but I think I have always heard a skirt. Just to put in people's mind how she may have looked. She had roller skates and a purse. I imagine this would be a cute, small purse as she was only 12.

 

[December]

Here is the link the the Performance Studios website (the same building as Rollerdrome).

They do a lot, lot of Halloween stuff, so the website looks spooky right now.

They have a "virtual tour" and some commercials where they walk through the building showing you the size of it.

The building has changed a good bit, obviously, since its days as the AWRD. But, it is still the same building. So, maybe this will be helpful?

Between this place and AWRD, it was a warehouse. So...

http://www.performancestudiosinc.com/\

ETA
OMG! the virtual tour lets you look around outside as well! They still have the wood floor and maybe even the counter! It's crazy! (It's repainted and polished up, but I think it is the same stuff!)

 

[December]

I don't believe they're evidence, but something placed on the ground by LE. They could be markers to show where evidence lay before it was removed. Or, they could be covering footprints left by the killer.

It could also be info about the searchers who walked through the field. (As in marking off footprints as being theirs.) The police did talk to everyone who searched the field.

 

[December]

Oh, this isn't any kind of confidential info.. just what anyone in the area would know..

the lot is not that big.. it was not that big then either. it is probably exactly how it looks now except there were those weeds.

(I asked specifically about the lot when I talked to the police.)

So, either they just missed her the first time or ????

But, it wasn't because the lot was any huge place.

I would say look at current photos.. then look at the weeds in the crime scene photos. imagine all those weeds in the current photos and you have the lot. remember there are a few trees in it as well.

ETA
I do not believe she would have chosen to walk into the lot. It was too weedy for that. I'm just saying it wasn't a short cut or anything, she would have walked on the street past it IF (and this is a true if) she walked past it at all. I am only talking about her choosing to walk somewhere of her own volition. I'm not talking about anything that might have happened under duress.

 

[December]

I believe now that she did leave for skating at night.

I think it was a little earlier than 7:45, but not that much earlier. But, enough that she could have potentially skated for a while because 7:45 was cutting it almost too close since it would take her 20 minutes to walk to the rink in the first place. So.. 7ish?

ETA
I'm really not sure where the newspapers got 7:45. This may have been around the time she would be expected to arrive at the rink though. It's very weird, honestly because of the fact the rink does indeed close at night so she had a limited amount of time to achieve her goals for the night.

IDK.. JMO