ellroy1958
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Remembering Kathy Jones, missing 45 years ago today.....
TN TN - Kathy Jones, 12, Nashville, 29 Nov 1969 #2
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GA Maria Gomez-Perez,12, missing from her home, Hall Co., 29 May 2024
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ellroy1958
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Thank you, bessie. Just realized the days of the week also match up. Like today, November 29, 1969 was also a Saturday. The afternoon Nashville Banner of Tuesday, Dec. 2, 1969, reported her being "missing since 7:45 p.m. Saturday," her body being discovered the same day as that edition of the Banner, at 12:10 p.m. Dec. 2nd.
ellroy1958
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2804 Grandview Avenue, then and now.
If my perspective is accurate - In the '69 pic, the building in the center stood where the parking lot is today, approx. where the Krispy Kreme truck is parked in the 2014 pic. The multi-angled roofline of the Furniture Warehouse can be seen on the right in both pics, as well as a jumble of scrub growing there in 1969 (also on right) as it still is today.
If my perspective is accurate - In the '69 pic, the building in the center stood where the parking lot is today, approx. where the Krispy Kreme truck is parked in the 2014 pic. The multi-angled roofline of the Furniture Warehouse can be seen on the right in both pics, as well as a jumble of scrub growing there in 1969 (also on right) as it still is today.
ellroy1958
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Grandview then and now - an alternate perspective.
Trying to determine by contemporary landmarks where the old newspaper photo was taken. The light patch in the weeds in the photo is the trampled grass where the investigators were standing when they were examining the scene.
The 1969 press pic was definitely taken on the very eastern edge of the vacant grassy lot, the photographer likely may have been standing in the alley, aiming the camera to the southwest. Due to the old photo's poor quality and how the Krispy Kreme property has changed, I am not certain relative to the Furniture Wharehouse roofline if the pic was taken further back on the lot (to the north), or closer to Krispy Kreme and Thompson Lane (to the south).
The right edge of the wharehouse roofline suggests the photographer may have been standing further south, which is where I was standing today when I took this alternate pic, closer to the where the parking lot is today.
In both instances when I took the pics, the fence separating the alley from the grassy lot was immediately to my back. In today's pic, I was even standing on a patch of alleyway asphalt exposed on the grassy-lot side of the fence.
From this more southern angle, the building in the center of the old pic more likely could have then been the old Krispy Kreme as it lines up closer to where the new Krispy kreme is today.
Trying to determine by contemporary landmarks where the old newspaper photo was taken. The light patch in the weeds in the photo is the trampled grass where the investigators were standing when they were examining the scene.
The 1969 press pic was definitely taken on the very eastern edge of the vacant grassy lot, the photographer likely may have been standing in the alley, aiming the camera to the southwest. Due to the old photo's poor quality and how the Krispy Kreme property has changed, I am not certain relative to the Furniture Wharehouse roofline if the pic was taken further back on the lot (to the north), or closer to Krispy Kreme and Thompson Lane (to the south).
The right edge of the wharehouse roofline suggests the photographer may have been standing further south, which is where I was standing today when I took this alternate pic, closer to the where the parking lot is today.
In both instances when I took the pics, the fence separating the alley from the grassy lot was immediately to my back. In today's pic, I was even standing on a patch of alleyway asphalt exposed on the grassy-lot side of the fence.
From this more southern angle, the building in the center of the old pic more likely could have then been the old Krispy Kreme as it lines up closer to where the new Krispy kreme is today.
bessie
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Thank you for the photos, Ellroy. I think you're right, and the building in the background of the 1969 photo is the KK. That would put the crime scene fairly close to the alley rather than Grandview, which makes sense. I've always had this notion that Kathy was abducted as she passed KK, and forced through the alley to the back of the building. Since it seems the original KK was set back off of the street, perhaps she walked up close to look inside for her friends. In the shadow of the building, the abductor could have grabbed her without being seen by passersby. JMO
ellroy1958
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Hello Bessie, yes, I do have some thoughts. I have visited the site before, but have been back to Grandview a couple of times in the past few days, and all sorts of new impressions have been jumping out at me that I have not had before from maps, photographs, and articles. After I write them down to clarify them to myself, I will post them here. In the mean time, I've also edited a zoomed in version of the photos. Been trying to triangulate the pitch and angle of the Furniture Warehouse roofline to try and pin down where along the alley the old photograph was taken.
Also including a photo of the back (north east) corner of the lot (for reference, note concrete slab in the grass in both 2014 pics). Been wondering if the old photo was taken along the fence line (the alley just on the other side of the green mesh), somewhere on a point between the concrete slab in the foreground and back a few paces down slope towards the large trees.
Also including a photo of the back (north east) corner of the lot (for reference, note concrete slab in the grass in both 2014 pics). Been wondering if the old photo was taken along the fence line (the alley just on the other side of the green mesh), somewhere on a point between the concrete slab in the foreground and back a few paces down slope towards the large trees.
ellroy1958
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Hello Bessie, in answer to your question about what might have happened, I’ll start with what you wrote earlier, a scenario I’ve never thought of before but which seems like a very real possibility:
“I've always had this notion that Kathy was abducted as she passed KK, and forced through the alley to the back of the building. Since it seems the original KK was set back off of the street, perhaps she walked up close to look inside for her friends. In the shadow of the building, the abductor could have grabbed her without being seen by passersby.”
It gets to the idea that sometimes the most simple explanation is the most accurate explanation.
So much hinges on the time of death that strikes at personality identity of the perpetrator and what “type” of person he was. These things are sad and horrible to contemplate:
Could this really have been his only murder? The brutality suggests it might not have been his first (or last) time. Could he be classified as a serial killer? (eg. Adcox was questioned about both Kathy Jones and Wanda June Anderson from 1965). He definitely would have been some type of serial offender.
It gets into questions about organized vs. disorganized serial killers / offenders.
An impulsive crime right then and there at the Krispy Kreme (disorganized) vs. an abduction and held captive elsewhere for 36 hours and then brought back there (more “organized”
seem like they are not only two different types of crimes but two different types of criminals.
Time of death plays a significant role in that question, whether she was attacked and died on the night of Nov. 29, or whether she died around noon that following Monday.
Over this past anniversary weekend, as 7:45 p.m. Saturday evening transitioned to lunchtime this past Monday, I thought about her, a twelve year old girl, held alive and captive over that passage of time in real time as it elapsed. It was harrowing to contemplate.
This is also harrowing and heartbreaking to contemplate:
That if she could have been accosted and assaulted right then and there that Saturday night at the Krispy Kreme, never held captive elsewhere, and was not discovered till Tuesday at 12:10 p.m., what is to say that she really didn’t die at noon on Monday? Maybe she was never held captive in a private residence. After an impulsive (disorganized) attack right there on site that night, she was simply left there, wounded and alive but unconscious, in the weeds exposed to the elements, day and night, until she succumbed to her wounds around lunchtime Monday, completely alone back there, not to be discovered for 24 hours.
Krispy Kreme was on her route that night. She left home, headed for the Krispy Kreme and the roller rink, but only got as far as the Krispy Kreme.
Just some thoughts. I do not know how consistent this scenario is with information in the police reports and photographs.
“I've always had this notion that Kathy was abducted as she passed KK, and forced through the alley to the back of the building. Since it seems the original KK was set back off of the street, perhaps she walked up close to look inside for her friends. In the shadow of the building, the abductor could have grabbed her without being seen by passersby.”
It gets to the idea that sometimes the most simple explanation is the most accurate explanation.
So much hinges on the time of death that strikes at personality identity of the perpetrator and what “type” of person he was. These things are sad and horrible to contemplate:
Could this really have been his only murder? The brutality suggests it might not have been his first (or last) time. Could he be classified as a serial killer? (eg. Adcox was questioned about both Kathy Jones and Wanda June Anderson from 1965). He definitely would have been some type of serial offender.
It gets into questions about organized vs. disorganized serial killers / offenders.
An impulsive crime right then and there at the Krispy Kreme (disorganized) vs. an abduction and held captive elsewhere for 36 hours and then brought back there (more “organized”
seem like they are not only two different types of crimes but two different types of criminals.Time of death plays a significant role in that question, whether she was attacked and died on the night of Nov. 29, or whether she died around noon that following Monday.
Over this past anniversary weekend, as 7:45 p.m. Saturday evening transitioned to lunchtime this past Monday, I thought about her, a twelve year old girl, held alive and captive over that passage of time in real time as it elapsed. It was harrowing to contemplate.
This is also harrowing and heartbreaking to contemplate:
That if she could have been accosted and assaulted right then and there that Saturday night at the Krispy Kreme, never held captive elsewhere, and was not discovered till Tuesday at 12:10 p.m., what is to say that she really didn’t die at noon on Monday? Maybe she was never held captive in a private residence. After an impulsive (disorganized) attack right there on site that night, she was simply left there, wounded and alive but unconscious, in the weeds exposed to the elements, day and night, until she succumbed to her wounds around lunchtime Monday, completely alone back there, not to be discovered for 24 hours.
Krispy Kreme was on her route that night. She left home, headed for the Krispy Kreme and the roller rink, but only got as far as the Krispy Kreme.
Just some thoughts. I do not know how consistent this scenario is with information in the police reports and photographs.
ellroy1958
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Thompson Lane and Nolensville Pike, northwest corner, looking south / southeast down Nolensville. Thank you to nola (post #757) for posting the 1960s pics, and to Searchin' for ID-ing angle and location (post #760):
.I parked in Eckerd's lot which is about the location where the photographer stood. It's looking south down Nolensville Rd (White Castle is now across Thompson Lane from the Gulf station/Eckerd). The building in the background with the Kroger sign is still there....it's just another business."
Non-cropped 2014 pic:
Non-cropped 2014 pic:
ellroy1958
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Thompson Lane, aerial view, from the Banner, Dec. 3, 1969. Have some questions about the accuracy of the labels in the pic, but I could get to that later.
ellroy1958
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All Weather Roller Drome, from the Banner, Dec. 3, 1969. South side of Thompson, looking east.
nerosleuth
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Thank you Ellroy for posting pictures of what the area from 1969 and 2014.
About the alley behind the Krispy Kreme store, is it an industrial area or residential area?
Were the any buildings on the alley behind Krispy Kreme that could have been a place of business back in 1969?
About the alley behind the Krispy Kreme store, is it an industrial area or residential area?
Were the any buildings on the alley behind Krispy Kreme that could have been a place of business back in 1969?
nerosleuth
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I meant to say pictures of what the area looks like from 1969 and 2014.
I was thinking about the alley that is behind the Krispy Kreme store. I was wondering if there were any street lights in that alley back then. My guess is that there probably weren't any street lights in the alley. If it was indeed a dark alley back then, I dont think that Kathy would walk along a dark alley at night.
The newspaper picture of the high weeds where Kathy was found gives me the impression that it was a very dark place where nobody would be seen at night.
I was also thinking about the configuration of the Krispy Kreme store back in 1969.
I was wondering if the front entrance of Krispy Kreme actually had side entrances located in the front part of the building where customers enter from the store parking lot.
Was there another side entrance on the rear part of the Krispy Kreme where perhaps public restrooms and dining tables were located? This could be an area where someone could enter the Krispy Kreme store without being seen by the store employees working at the front counter.
Were the parking lot and all of the store entrances well lighted back then?
If there was a picture of what the Krispy Kreme store looked like and how it was configured back then, it may give us a better idea of whether Kathy could have been abducted from near Krispy Kreme or somewhere else.
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I have been in that KK in the eighties and nineties (before they changed the road and moved it). I do not recall any way to get in (for customers) than the front door. This gave you access to the counter, tables, a view of doughnuts being made. I guess probably restrooms as well, I never used to restroom there.
It was DARK behind the store. No way can I imagine anyone going back that way. I mean, surely there would be some light for employees, but nothing that encouraged anyone to stroll back there and see. You could probably get out through the back if you really had to (as in the store is on fire), but IDK if you could get inside that way.
At that time, I thought the KK Kathy was going to was a totally different one (that also had a roller rink nearby). That one, the back was a little more commercial/lit. This one, was not any place to go. It was residential, but it was in Nashville. I believe there would be street lights... just not really lighting up the back of KK and the vacant lot, but a few yards past those to where there were houses (in 1969, per maps). I do not see her going back there, but she could have been lured or chased or even driven in a car. In any of those cases, her actual route might not be shortest route (e.g., just going around back of the KK) because the shortest route makes no sense for HER to choose.
I have been reading about places in the area and there were a few places that sold food very near KK (on down Thompson Lane). There would be a road that more or less ran behind all of these stores that linked up with approximately where she was found. There is a video on the old thread, I think of a car pulling out of the current location that made me think of some of those places (gone since decades.. even when I lived nearby). The hotdog place might be a possibility. She had a whole dollar, that would buy a lot more than a doughnut in 1969 especially for a 12 year old girl. What if, after her hike, she was just too hungry for only KK and never even went there?
It was DARK behind the store. No way can I imagine anyone going back that way. I mean, surely there would be some light for employees, but nothing that encouraged anyone to stroll back there and see. You could probably get out through the back if you really had to (as in the store is on fire), but IDK if you could get inside that way.
At that time, I thought the KK Kathy was going to was a totally different one (that also had a roller rink nearby). That one, the back was a little more commercial/lit. This one, was not any place to go. It was residential, but it was in Nashville. I believe there would be street lights... just not really lighting up the back of KK and the vacant lot, but a few yards past those to where there were houses (in 1969, per maps). I do not see her going back there, but she could have been lured or chased or even driven in a car. In any of those cases, her actual route might not be shortest route (e.g., just going around back of the KK) because the shortest route makes no sense for HER to choose.
I have been reading about places in the area and there were a few places that sold food very near KK (on down Thompson Lane). There would be a road that more or less ran behind all of these stores that linked up with approximately where she was found. There is a video on the old thread, I think of a car pulling out of the current location that made me think of some of those places (gone since decades.. even when I lived nearby). The hotdog place might be a possibility. She had a whole dollar, that would buy a lot more than a doughnut in 1969 especially for a 12 year old girl. What if, after her hike, she was just too hungry for only KK and never even went there?
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Performance Studios shows you their store from the inside. You can still see a FEW aspects of AWRD even now. Of course, it has been a few different businesses through the years.
Thanks for these photos.
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Actually, this is kind of possible from my memory of what the entrance to the place was like. She could have been off to the side of the front door looking in the window pretty easily. It wouldn't be in the shadows, but possibly no one would notice her. Then the murderer might come up and talk to her. So close to a business, she might talk to him even if she didn't know him. BUT, what if she did (or more like, he recognized her). People who didn't know who she was might assume these two people were together. If he could think of a ploy to edge her a little more out of their view then he could spring his trap pretty easily. If he got her just a little further away, unless she was able to get out a loud scream then the road noise (etc.) would drown out a possible call for help if she was ever able to do this.
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Thank you... I wish I could do more.
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The orientation seems a little weird, but the labels seem accurate...