Trail to the Water & Cadaver dog hits

[Houndacres]

Hi Indigo,
I have a lot of thoughts and questions about that one. I have no doubt that a dog could/would track an old scent. Perhaps it was the path she took to catch the bus (to the end of the park or by the RR tracks). There have been dogs that have tracked scents accurately that were several days old. I have read of experiences where the dog tracked a scent that was up to a month old or longer. I don't think this is the norm, nor have I ever seen this happen. A lot would depend on the reliablity of the dog and training of the dog/handler. In my opinion, which by no means is a professional opinion, it would not be unusual for a dog to track her to the dock, had she recently visited in that area (a previous scent trail). What I don't know is if a dog will choose to follow a fresher scent, as compared to a previous trail that was in the same area.
What concerns me the most is that I read somewhere on this thread (but don't know to be true?? just not sure of the info) that the dog followed the path thru the backdoor. I was under the impresison that she didn't use the backdoor, so a fresh scent there would be unusual. If the dog and handler were reliable (and I have no reason to think they weren't) and the dog followed her scent thru the backdoor and to the dock, in my opinion, this was the direction she was taken.


ETA. . . I will check with my good trailing buddy to see if a dog can determine an old vs. fresh scent.

 

[Indigo]

Hi Indigo,
I have a lot of thoughts and questions about that one. I have no doubt that a dog could/would track an old scent. Perhaps it was the path she took to catch the bus (to the end of the park or by the RR tracks). There have been dogs that have tracked scents accurately that were several days old. I have read of experiences where the dog tracked a scent that was up to a month old or longer. I don't think this is the norm, nor have I ever seen this happen. A lot would depend on the reliablity of the dog and training of the dog/handler. In my opinion, which by no means is a professional opinion, it would not be unusual for a dog to track her to the dock, had she recently visited in that area (a previous scent trail). What I don't know is if a dog will choose to follow a fresher scent, as compared to a previous trail that was in the same area.
What concerns me the most is that I read somewhere on this thread (but don't know to be true?? just not sure of the info) that the dog followed the path thru the backdoor. I was under the impresison that she didn't use the backdoor, so a fresh scent there would be unusual. If the dog and handler were reliable (and I have no reason to think they weren't) and the dog followed her scent thru the backdoor and to the dock, in my opinion, this was the direction she was taken.


ETA. . . I will check with my good trailing buddy to see if a dog can determine an old vs. fresh scent.

Thanks again, Houndacres. The trail from the backdoor that was never used to (or close to) the water is odd. Here's the quote again from Sheriff Hardy:

NG: Sheriff Hardy, you stated that dogs had hit near water. Has the child ever been down to the water with adult supervision? What do you make of them hitting near the water?

HARDY: Nancy, the -- we had several bloodhounds that went ahead and did several different tracks. They did track down towards the water area. We don`t know, you know. These bloodhounds can track scent for several days. Their noses are very astute. And so as far as tracking Haleigh all the way down to the water, that -- we`re uncertain about whether or not that Haleigh ended up in the water.

 

[Houndacres]

Another thought about this; were the dogs taken in the boat on the water? I do know that dogs can follow a scent in/on water. If the dog hit on her scent on the water, it would have given some indication if she was transported by boat. And finally, did the cadaver dogs search the water?
o/t . . I have always threatened my son that if he didn't come home when he was supposed to (and caused me to worry!:slap: ), I would release the hounds. I assurred him that when they found him, and covered him with drool and slobber, he would never get a girlfriend!

 

[Indigo]

Another thought about this; were the dogs taken in the boat on the water? I do know that dogs can follow a scent in/on water. If the dog hit on her scent on the water, it would have given some indication if she was transported by boat. And finally, did the cadaver dogs search the water?
o/t . . I have always threatened my son that if he didn't come home when he was supposed to (and caused me to worry!:slap: ), I would release the hounds. I assurred him that when they found him, and covered him with drool and slobber, he would never get a girlfriend!

Ha, ha! Good thinking, Houndacres. My daughter gets similiar assurance--but the tracking dog is ME! Mom slobber is even less attractive, I'm sure.

 

[Houndacres]

Indigo,
Here's more of an answer to the question we were talking about earlier. I asked this question on our bloodhound list: if a person had been in the same area at two different times, one old scent and one newer scent, would a bloodhound be able to determine the difference between scent ages and would the dog be able to pick up and follow the newer scent. A friend, with much experience in this area, answered me and this is her response:

"he could smell them both but the fresh scent would be stronger so he should follow it. You can't fool them much, you'll think for sure they are going in the wrong direction and they'll be right. they call us the dope on the rope cause we're just there to keep them on the lunge line, they know what they're doing.

its like shaking up a beer and you see it spill over and the foam goes out on the ground further and further that's what happens to a person's scent when they stop for any length of time so you'll notice sometimes the dog will stop and work an area cause the person stopped there for a while."

I am of the opinion that if the dogs went out the backdoor and to the water, that was the direction she was taken.

 

[Trino]

Indigo,
Here's more of an answer to the question we were talking about earlier. I asked this question on our bloodhound list: if a person had been in the same area at two different times, one old scent and one newer scent, would a bloodhound be able to determine the difference between scent ages and would the dog be able to pick up and follow the newer scent. A friend, with much experience in this area, answered me and this is her response:

"he could smell them both but the fresh scent would be stronger so he should follow it. You can't fool them much, you'll think for sure they are going in the wrong direction and they'll be right. they call us the dope on the rope cause we're just there to keep them on the lunge line, they know what they're doing.

its like shaking up a beer and you see it spill over and the foam goes out on the ground further and further that's what happens to a person's scent when they stop for any length of time so you'll notice sometimes the dog will stop and work an area cause the person stopped there for a while."

I am of the opinion that if the dogs went out the backdoor and to the water, that was the direction she was taken.

Do you think H simply walked toward the water and drowned?

 

[Indigo]

Indigo,
Here's more of an answer to the question we were talking about earlier. I asked this question on our bloodhound list: if a person had been in the same area at two different times, one old scent and one newer scent, would a bloodhound be able to determine the difference between scent ages and would the dog be able to pick up and follow the newer scent. A friend, with much experience in this area, answered me and this is her response:

"he could smell them both but the fresh scent would be stronger so he should follow it. You can't fool them much, you'll think for sure they are going in the wrong direction and they'll be right. they call us the dope on the rope cause we're just there to keep them on the lunge line, they know what they're doing.


its like shaking up a beer and you see it spill over and the foam goes out on the ground further and further that's what happens to a person's scent when they stop for any length of time so you'll notice sometimes the dog will stop and work an area cause the person stopped there for a while."

I am of the opinion that if the dogs went out the backdoor and to the water, that was the direction she was taken.

Fascinating stuff! Thank you. Please, thank your friend for me too.

 

[txsvicki]

I just hope Haleigh wasn't taken down to the water and tortured or frightened by threats to throw her in since she is said to be afraid of water.

 

[Indigo]

I just hope Haleigh wasn't taken down to the water and tortured or frightened by threats to throw her in since she is said to be afraid of water.

Normally when I hear on the news that a child is missing I can keep my emotions in check somewhat. But when I heard that Haleigh was afraid of the water and that the dogs had tracked down to the water, I actually started sobbing. I hope beyond hope that this isn't what happened.

 

[Houndacres]

Do you think H simply walked toward the water and drowned?

In my opinion, I don't believe that she would have walked outside by herself. If the door was open and she walked outside (perhaps the door was open and others were outside), I still don't think she would have ever walked to the water by herself in the dark. I just don't see her getting up by herself, with MC and Rj asleep in the same room and walking to the water by herself. Even if she woke up and couldn't find MC, I don't think she would have walked to the water looking for her.

 

[Houndacres]

I'm rambling here again (too much DP!), but I had a couple of questions about this. If he takes her out the backdoor, he wants to make sure he wasn't seen or heard. So, he goes to the water, which is the most isolated place, compared to the other direction. From the water to the out-building. Why the out-building? What was in the out-building that he was looking for or needed? From there, it looks like he went thru the woods and out to the street ( I can't tell from the picture if the trail went thru the woods or was on a street). At this point, the trail turns left, instead of heading to the exit of the park. Perhaps he turned the wrong direction and then realized this, which would account for the circle around the area to the left of the home. He then corrects himself and heads towards the exit and to the RR tracks. It would make no sense to me if he were on foot. How do you carry or walk a child around like that and not be seen? In my opinion, this happened way before 3am. Also, if he were on foot, why walk around the big circle on the streets? unless he was totally lost? If he were on foot, he would take the shortest route. If he was in a car, or parked his car in the area of the big circle, he does the circle to turn around, then head to the exit. Scent is lost at the RR tracks. If he were on foot and walked down the RR tracks with Haleigh, I think the dogs would have hit on that. Why does it stop at the tracks? Could he have driven across the tracks (there is a road, 309?, right across the tracks). Could he have driven across the tracks, but a train come thru and disturbed the scent trail to the point the dogs couldn't pick it up after the tracks? I'd be interested to know if the dogs were taken across the tracks to see if they picked up a trail on the other side of the tracks, perhaps down 309 a little ways? Sorry. . just wonering out loud here.

 

[winterrose]

Maybe someone else will remember this. Which one of the family members said something about working on that river for like 20 years or so and that they knew the river well? This was early on, I saw it in one of the general discussion threads and have searched many times since and can not find it. I think crabbing was mentioned. Is it ring a dinging any bells with anyone?

I thought it was Grandma Sykes.

 

[winterrose]

I'm rambling here again (too much DP!), but I had a couple of questions about this. If he takes her out the backdoor, he wants to make sure he wasn't seen or heard. So, he goes to the water, which is the most isolated place, compared to the other direction. From the water to the out-building. Why the out-building? What was in the out-building that he was looking for or needed? From there, it looks like he went thru the woods and out to the street ( I can't tell from the picture if the trail went thru the woods or was on a street). At this point, the trail turns left, instead of heading to the exit of the park. Perhaps he turned the wrong direction and then realized this, which would account for the circle around the area to the left of the home. He then corrects himself and heads towards the exit and to the RR tracks. It would make no sense to me if he were on foot. How do you carry or walk a child around like that and not be seen? In my opinion, this happened way before 3am. Also, if he were on foot, why walk around the big circle on the streets? unless he was totally lost? If he were on foot, he would take the shortest route. If he was in a car, or parked his car in the area of the big circle, he does the circle to turn around, then head to the exit. Scent is lost at the RR tracks. If he were on foot and walked down the RR tracks with Haleigh, I think the dogs would have hit on that. Why does it stop at the tracks? Could he have driven across the tracks (there is a road, 309?, right across the tracks). Could he have driven across the tracks, but a train come thru and disturbed the scent trail to the point the dogs couldn't pick it up after the tracks? I'd be interested to know if the dogs were taken across the tracks to see if they picked up a trail on the other side of the tracks, perhaps down 309 a little ways? Sorry. . just wonering out loud here.

I saw in the video with LE talking to Ron at the dock Monday,wondered if a boat didn't come up to there,followed treeline back and forth to boat.The man who took the Lisk Sisters used a canoe.He picked them up in vehicle and got in his canoe.I am wondering about the abandoned car found,if it was abandoned.

 

[tehcloser]

I thought it was Grandma Sykes.

Interesting.....wish we knew for sure............:waitasec:

 

[tx_Dot]

2-26.....Dogs Back ??

Since we've yet to hear much about 'what the dogs found', in todays updates is says the dogs will be searching around the woods near the trailer.....Geez, I hope this isn't the first time they've been there !!! & I hope LE takes them INSIDE the trailer......
(last night on NG she said Caylee *might* of been killed in her bedroom......too bad LE didn't take the dogs inside that house months ago.....(

--------------------------------------------------------------
UPDATED: Canine Teams To Search Around Haleigh's Home
Family Releases Video, New Photos Of Missing 5-Year-Old
POSTED: Thursday, February 26, 2009
UPDATED: 10:11 am EST February 26, 2009
<snipped>
SATSUMA, Fla. -- Several teams of dogs specially trained to find human remains were to spend Thursday searching the area around the mobile home where 5-year-old Haleigh Cummings disappeared Feb. 10, the Putnam County Sheriff's Office announced.
The canine search was to begin about 10 a.m.

 

[mydailyopinions]

These are cadaver dogs too!
I am afraid they will find her little body right under their noses..Just like Caylee.

 

[Carrington]

The canine teams are a part of Canine South, a non-law enforcement organization that specializes in canine searches. The teams consist of cadaver dogs that specifically seek out human remains.

http://www.wftv.com/news/18801373/detail.html


NOT good news IMO

 

[Capri]

http://www.news4jax.com/news/18800793/detail.html

Same basic info, different source, so I guess I'll leave it.

 

[Indigo]

Do you know where the bus stop is on the map? Is it in the same area, could the dogs have picked up her scent from the bus stop?

Yes, Scopian. I asked this question yesterday and a poster gave a link to a map of Haleigh's bus route. I think the dogs may have picked that up, as it would have been only hours earlier. (will find the link for you)


ETA: Here's the link--courtesy of Aries72 (thanks, Aries)


http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=202+Green+Ln+Satsuma,+FL&daddr=Tyler+St+%26+Buffalo+Bluff+Rd,+FL+32189&hl=en&geocode=&mra=ls&sll=29.57434,-81.672345&sspn=0.004292,0.009463&ie=UTF8&z=17

 

[mydailyopinions]

The canine teams are a part of Canine South, a non-law enforcement organization that specializes in canine searches. The teams consist of cadaver dogs that specifically seek out human remains.

http://www.wftv.com/news/18801373/detail.html


NOT good news IMO

Investigators said Thursday's search was not in response to leads received from the family or the public, but as a routine procedure that has proven itself in other missing child cases.

Why would investigators insert that statement about the routine procedure that has proven itself in other missing child cases? I personally think they are on to something.