Trial Discussion Thread #1 - 14.03.03-06, Day 1-4

[zwiebel]

Try these zwiebel

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/8316451/Oscar-Pistorius-girlfriends-skull-crushed

http://news.yahoo.com/report-steroids-found-home-oscar-pistorius-131405281.html

Danke danke! I got the first one, but no dice with the second. Found this instead though:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...r-charge-steroids-found-at-athletes-home.html

Steroids count as cheating, don't they? Oh, but I forget, they weren't Oscar's...of course.

 

[Cherwell]

Most of the main "bathrooms" in America have a toilet as well as a shower/bath, and sink, all in one room.

Yes, our bathrooms usually contain a toilet too.

Some also have a second bathroom that we call a "half bath" ~ which is a toilet and sink only.

This is the point. We would never call this room a "bathroom", and this case demonstrates the confusion that can arise from doing so.

What I wanted to check is whether the terms are interchangeable in South Africa, as in the USA. I suspect that they aren't.

 

[zwiebel]

The post he made about mistaking the washing machine for an intruder ( my words, not his) is a bit of a gift for the defence. It is sure to be mentioned. It's not such a leap from panicking about a swooshing washine machine, to panicking about........now what exactly WAS it about the bathroom that made him panic? Noise, shut door, light?

Do we even know why he went in the bathroom in the first place? If it was pitch black in the bedroom, I'd be scared burglars were more likely to be hiding in there - more likely to be jewelry/cash in there.

 

[Cherwell]

Not forgetting the dogs that didn't bark in the night :detective:

 

[aa9511]

I've been running this through my mind all day.

Let's go with what Roux is telling us. Let's say that Burger & Johnson did actually hear the cricket bat hitting the door (not gunshots). That would mean that there was very loud distressed screaming that sounded like a woman on and off somewhat consistently for two minutes prior to the banging.

In Oscar's statement, he says that after the shots he yelled to Reeva to call the police. And he also says that he went out to the balcony and yelled for help from there too. But that is all that he mentions about yelling.

He went back inside afterwards. He was supposedly running back and forth from room to room before he bashed the door in. He did not say that he was screaming at the top of his lungs during this time, so much so that he sounded like a woman. He also did not say that he was screaming his head off right before and during the bashing of the door. Remember, the screams were heard immediately before and during the banging sounds. It still doesn't totally fit with what Roux is saying.

What do you guys think? Am I looking at this right?

Yes, I believe you are.

Re: your prior post, I have been thinking about this:

Oscar calls security (or whoever it was), as you calculated, about 2 minutes after he would have shot the gun. I would expect, if he knew it was Reeva the whole time, to kind of hedge-and-haw about calling anyone. To take some time to set up the scene, think about what he was going to do. I would not expect a guilty person to very shortly afterwards, call the police.

UNLESS, he knew someone would have heard the gunshots. I mean, there were 4 of them. It looks as if there were neigbors and people all around him. Surely, he figured out SOMEONE would have heard those gunshots.

So, upon thinking of this, he thinks, well omigosh now I have to start putting on my act. I have to start screaming and crying. I have to go out on the balcony so everyone can hear my screaming for help. I have to get Reeva and take her downstairs to make it seem like this was all just a terrible accident.

I am surprised, thought, at how quickly he thought all of it through.

JMO.

****Also, I think the 2 minutes or so were for putting his prosthetics on plus checking to see what position she was in, how bad damage was, etc..

 

[soozieqtips]

On the night of 13th March in SA 37.6 per cent of the moon was illuminated. There are some photos here of the phases of the moon for March 2013. What we don't know is whether there was any cloud cover but I am sure I can find it somewhere.

http://www.vercalendario.info/en/moon/south_africa-month-march-2013.html

Did you mean February?

 

[Carol70]

Originally Posted by Cherwell
Carol70,

Could you clarify something for me, please? Do South Africans use the word 'bathroom' to mean 'toilet', or are the two things always distinct, as in the UK?

I ask because Americans use the word bathroom to mean toilet (as in "bathroom break"). In Britain we never do this: when we say 'bathroom' we mean a room containing a bath and/or shower.
We use many different words to describe the small room with just a WC (toilet, loo, lavatory, WC and many more ), but we never call it a bathroom. (Although regrettably this US usage is starting to creep in with younger people)

I'm sure this case is demonstrating how important it can be to distinguish between the two things.

It's pretty much the same for the uk, bathroom is the shower/ bath, we call the room with just a toilet the loo ie: going to the loo, going to spend a penny haha

I have mentioned before that I have never come across a home in SA that has an enclosed loo INSIDE the bathroom, it's always nextdoor to the bathroom.(meaning the bathroom and loo will be two completely separate rooms, not a room within a room kwim...It was very confusing to me to understand what and how this happened initially until I saw the blue prints. Very unusual.

 

[shane13]

Okay for me the case comes down to one point: if it was Reeva who was screaming at any point (and we pretty much know she was), then OP knew he was shooting HER and he continued to do it. Regardless of what happened in what order with shots or cricket bat, none of that matter. Reeva didn't think there was an intruder and she had no reason to scream unless her own life was in danger. And her life was in danger because the one person who was in the room with her put her life in danger.

I think he's not only guilty but now I think I could find him guilty of premeditated murder. To me there is no way he couldn't know Reeva was in that toilet room. Not with her bloodcurdling screams for her life. That's a primal type of scream, not one done in anger. I think he went into a rage and killed her, just like that. Then panicked afterwards and tried to create a story that would save his hide.

Don't forget about at least 1 witness hearing loud arguing for 1 hour leading right into the shooting.

 

[aa9511]

Charl Johnson stated that the lady person's voice sounded distressed, while the male voice sounded monotone.

Oh, well there we go.

ALSO, if the witnesses are confused and maybe mistaking Reeva's voice for Oscar's, why do they say they heard 2 distinct voices?

Makes no sense if it was just one person (eiither Oscar in woman voice, or Reeva).

 

[lisasalinger]

BRAVO!! Thank you for your excellent analysis!! Some of the folks on here lay things out much better than either side's attorneys in many of the cases I've followed, where in the end, they still can't give the jury a clear picture like this.

You are very right - IMO, there's NO WAY he could have done all of that in that time frame. I hope the prosecution goes into the exact timings, etc., like you did.

So how do you all think he got the key to the bathroom?

Do you guys think the door was really locked? I know that sounds like a silly question, but maybe he just decided he wanted to shoot her and didn't care about the door being in the way. IDK.

**Edit: But Reeva would have locked it when she went in to hide from him. Maybe he had another key somewhere?

Thanks, aa9511

At first glance, the news of there only being 2 minutes between the bangs and Oscar's call to security was a win for the defense.

But after much thought about this, I think it works against them.

The sounds of the gunshots heard by Burger and Johnson coincide with the end of a phone call, so they have a documented time via phone records. It was very shortly after 3:17am that the shots occurred. And I do believe them when they say they heard "gun" shots. They are credible to me.

Then, the defense has a documented call from Oscar to security (Stander) at 3:19am and approximately 30 seconds.

To me, this disproves Oscars detailing of events. I don't think he did all that running around and trying to figure out where Reeva was, etc. after he shot her.

I tend to think that he knew exactly who he shot. After the shots, he pretty quickly got that door down and pulled her out of that toilet room, picked up the phone and called Stander. That would make sense within 2 minutes. Just my opinion.

Yes, I do believe that the door was locked. We'll need to wait and hear testimony about the door actually being locked and where exactly that key was found. Oscar previously stated that the key to the toilet was found inside the toilet room once he broke the door panel. He reached in and used the key to unlock the door and get Reeva out.

 

[Pisto_lius]

Pisto-lius, I think a lot of people may not know a handy is a cell/mobile phone in German, though I think it's great name!

A couple of other things;

I distinctly heard the Dr S stress 'it was moments, only moments' between the sets of shots today.

Dr S is saying it was the bathroom window he saw the person through. Oscar's whole excuse for putting bullets through the toilet door was because he saw the bathroom window open, panicked and thought a burglar had climbed through it and was hiding in the toilet cubicle.

BIB 1 - Wouldn't it be great if the Dr could say that bathroom window was closed when he went out on his balcony and heard the shots?

Oscar's girlfriend had just died on the floor beside him, and DrS said Oscar was praying over and over to God to help her live, he'd devote his life to God etc....BIB 2 - then he leaves her, before the ambulance arrives, to pop upstairs and wash his face and hands? Or have I got that wrong, because it sounds SUCH an unnatural thing to do. I've been stewing and stewing on that while digging my garden this afternoon...

Thinking German but writing English is rather difficult sometimes therefore I didn't realized this mistake

BIB 1 - I respectfully disagree because the witnesses couldn't hear the screams as clear as they testified if the bathroom window was closed.

And if Dr. Stipp (or another witness) would say he/she saw the bathroom window was closed Roux would then a fortiori say it's not possible for the witnesses to distinguish gunshots and beating with a cricket bat

BIB 2 - I guess he also called his relatives (e.g. his father Henke, brother Carl and sister Aimee). They are all at the prosecutor's witness list....

Remember: there was a further phone that the defence withheld until the bail hearing and I think for this phone prosecutors needed the help of APPLE.

 

[aa9511]

Roux wants this awkward business of the screaming before the shooting to just GO AWAY

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

 

[Feynman]

On the night of 13th March in SA 37.6 per cent of the moon was illuminated. There are some photos here of the phases of the moon for March 2013. What we don't know is whether there was any cloud cover but I am sure I can find it somewhere.

http://www.vercalendario.info/en/moon/south_africa-month-march-2013.html

But the shooting was in the early hours of February 14 2013. This was checked a year ago. Not much moon out.

 

[Madeleine74]

Don't forget about at least 1 witness hearing loud arguing for 1 hour leading right into the shooting.

Yes, that overheard argument, along with today's witness seeing someone walking right to left at the window (did OP have his legs on afterall?), and lights on at the time the shots rang out, are all icing on the proverbial cake. I know we're only 3 or 4 witnesses in, but I've been thinking about this and there is no way to not realize when a woman in your home, in your own bathroom and bathroom area, is screaming in terror. If people hundreds of feet away can hear it then surely you can too.

Oscar is guilty of that I am now certain. He knew exactly who he was shooting and he knew why he was shooting her and it was no accident. One shot is an accident, maybe. 4 shots is no accident.

 

[shane13]

On the night of 13th March in SA 37.6 per cent of the moon was illuminated. There are some photos here of the phases of the moon for March 2013. What we don't know is whether there was any cloud cover but I am sure I can find it somewhere.

http://www.vercalendario.info/en/moon/south_africa-month-march-2013.html

Thanks.
But it is Feb 13th we need. And that shows 8.8% illumination on that date.

But that is still insufficient because it does not tell us the position of the Moon in the sky at 3 Am on the 14th.

 

[Carol70]

Don't forget about at least 1 witness hearing loud arguing for 1 hour leading right into the shooting.

Shane, I find this the most intriguing. I wonder why it hasn't been brought up in court more, both sides have almost dismissed it as being irrelevant but I think it's a huge statement to make from the witness.

 

[aa9511]

the woman continued screaming while shots were being fired..


god almighty

I am thinking the first shot could have been the missed one, or the one in the right thigh. In any case, after the first shot, Reeva knew her very life was on the line. Hence the extreme fear in her voice.

 

[aa9511]

'Heard three shots went to balcony. I heard screaming...female...three or four times. I phoned security.'

OMG so is this a FOURTH witness stating he heard "woman's screams"???

There goes all of the numerous hours Roux has done so far- down the drain.

 

[shane13]

Shane, I find this the most intriguing. I wonder why it hasn't been brought up in court more, both sides have almost dismissed it as being irrelevant but I think it's a huge statement to make from the witness.

Thanks, Carol.
Yes it's strange, as that ipso facto negates the whole "unknown intruder" claim.

But my earlier post an hour or so ago, indicates that I am on the verge--after Nels' words to mylady today--that both sides' versions are wrong.

We will see how it unfolds.

 

[Carol70]

Just a note for interests sake, I'm not sure how the proceeding are going to go in the following days, our country's electricity is "apparently" under strain and they started load shedding today, we will be loosing 4-6 hours of electricity during the day ( we have been without for most of the day).. I'm not sure if the courts have generators to keep proceedings going during the hours of outage or if they will just postpone every time they load shed. The timing is city/suburb dependant. I hope it doesn't delay and interfere too much with proceedings. Just a heads up..