Trial Discussion Thread #1 - 14.03.03-06, Day 1-4

[minor4th]

I am really anxious to see the ballistic evidence. I think that will be important evidence and we've really heard no mention of it yet.

 

[Pisto_lius]

Oscar Pistorius trial: doctor describes finding body of Reeva Steenkamp

Dr Johan Stipp says he raced to scene after hearing screams and found Pistorius weeping over body of his girlfriend

[...]

Stipp continued: "I tried to assist her. So I tried to open the airway and look for any signs of life. She had no pulse in her neck, she had no peripheral pulse, she had no breathing movements that she made. She was clenching down on Oscar's fingers as he was trying to open her airway.

"I tried to do a jaw lift manoeuvre to open the airway. It was very difficult with the clenching down, and all during that time there wasn't any signs of life that I could see. I opened her right eyelid: the pupil was fixed dilated and the cornea was milky – in other words, it was already drying out. So to me it was obvious she was mortally wounded".

"I looked at the rest of her body and I noted that she had a wound in her right thigh, also a wound in her right upper arm. As I looked further, I saw that there was blood and hair and what looked like brain tissue intermingled with that to the right area of her skull."

Read more: http://news24s.com/oscar-pistorius-trial-doctor-describes-finding-body-reeva-steenkamp/

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[shane13]

Ooops, sorry lost it there. Here is some other data that may be of interest.


Moon Phases etc for February 2013:-

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclo...month=2&year=2013&obj=moon&afl=-1&day=1&n=269


Historical Weather for Pretoria 13.2.2013 – not a lot of detail. I have been unable to track down much historical weather data for Pretoria:-

http://www.wunderground.com/history...retoria&req_state=&req_statename=South+Africa

Thank you so much IB!

Your 1st link was definitive.

Regardless of phase, there was no Moon in the sky over Pretoria at 3 AM on the mornng of Feb 14 2013.

This is relevant to the aspect of outside light entering OP's residence at the time of the shooting.

Conclusion here; zero from the Moon.

 

[shane13]

Hi Shane,

The 2 minutes was discussed in court yesterday when Roux was questioning Johnson. See my post #1098 in this thread for more details.

Let me know what you think.

My query was re the time interval betwen the 2 sets of 3 shots in Dr. Stipp's testimony.

 

[lisasalinger]

My query was re the time interval betwen the 2 sets of 3 shots in Dr. Stipp's testimony.

Oops, sorry. I haven't listened to all of today's testimony yet, so I'm not sure. I'd like to know that myself.

 

[Schuby]

I am really anxious to see the ballistic evidence. I think that will be important evidence and we've really heard no mention of it yet.

I am too. Whether or not he was wearing his prosthetics at the time of the shooting could really turn the whole case either way. If he did, his whole story breaks down. If not, the image of them embattled in an hour long argument ending with her cowering in fear in the bathroom becomes suspect. I hope there can be a definitive determination one way or the other.

Hi WSers! :seeya: Just now catching up on the thread.

 

[Interested Bystander]

That was very interesting and informative. Thank you for posting it.

This program was discussed in detail here at the time and was generally rubbished because the tests that were conducted were not felt to be carried out under the correct conditions. There was much more light in the studio than the actual moonlight levels and one would expect a short spell of blindness under the studio conditions. In reality, he walked through open doors to collect the fan and back into the bedroom. He could obviously see to carry the fan back in, close the doors, blinds and curtains. Also, the sound experiment was conducted when it was raining with quite marked rain noises on their umbrella. It was not raining on the night of the murder.

 

[minor4th]

This program was discussed in detail here at the time and was generally rubbished because the tests that were conducted were not felt to be carried out under the correct conditions. There was much more light in the studio than the actual moonlight levels and one would expect a short spell of blindness under the studio conditions. In reality, he walked through open doors to collect the fan and back into the bedroom. He could obviously see to carry the fan back in, close the doors, blinds and curtains. Also, the sound experiment was conducted when it was raining with quite marked rain noises on their umbrella. It was not raining on the night of the murder.

Listening to some of Roux' comments in court today, I have a feeling we will find out through expert testimony about the ability to hear screams from an enclosed toilet room. Apparently Roux' team has carried out audio tests.

ETA: Of course it was chalked up to rubbish among the group who has been convinced or Oscar's guilt before hearing evidence.

 

[Schuby]

Now tell me why would Reeva be in the toilet with the light not on? Unless she ran in there locked the door and was trying to hide from him.

Today the court was adjourned at 3: pm at Roux's request. The witness who's house is just 70 metres from OP's home testimony that the light was on in the bathroom, but not in the toilet has rattled him and he wants time to prepare himself before he continues with his cross examination.

Actually (sorry guys, I know you will hate this post but please believe me that I'm not advocating for OP's innocence or guilt, just trying to think about plausible ways to reconcile the evidence) it makes more sense to me that the light would be off if she had gotten up to use the bathroom. I don't turn my bathroom light on in the middle of the night, most people don't, because your half asleep and it hurts your eyes. On the flip side, it would make more sense that it be on if she is holed up in fear and trying to frantically manipulate a phone.

 

[minor4th]

To follow Schuby's unlikeable post, here's another that will surely be hated:

I'm just now listening to Dr Ship's testimony, and it is becoming clear that the sounds heard at 3:17 by Ship and by Burger and Johnson was the sounds of the cricket bat breaking the door. It is the only thing that makes sense if Dr Ship is to be believed about what he heard.

 

[dgfred]

Listening to some of Roux' comments in court today, I have a feeling we will find out through expert testimony about the ability to hear screams from an enclosed toilet room. Apparently Roux' team has carried out audio tests.

ETA: Of course it was chalked up to rubbish among the group who has been convinced or Oscar's guilt before hearing evidence.

Good luck finding a woman to scream like she had just been shot... or was about to be.

Not rubbish... but not easy to test exactly.

 

[minor4th]

Good luck finding a woman to scream like she had just been shot... or was about to be.

Not rubbish... but not easy to test exactly.

It sounds like Roux is going to put on evidence that Oscar's screams could sound like a woman screaming. I have no idea how they will do it, but that is what Roux said in court today.

 

[dgfred]

A mocking scream? Or a help scream?

 

[Schuby]

I've been thinking about this and there is no way to not realize when a woman in your home, in your own bathroom and bathroom area, is screaming in terror. If people hundreds of feet away can hear it then surely you can too.

Oscar is guilty of that I am now certain. He knew exactly who he was shooting and he knew why he was shooting her and it was no accident. One shot is an accident, maybe. 4 shots is no accident.

That was my first instinct when I read about the neighbors reports of simultaneous screaming and gun shots. Ironically, it was MB's emotional testimony about the "blood curdling" quality of the screams that made me question it. When people scream in a state of true immediate fear for their life, it is almost inhuman sounding. It doesn't sound "like them."

That may sound like spin but I only thought of it after reading MB's testimony because her description reminded me of the one (and, thank goodness, only) time I heard a scream like that. It came from a woman being mugged at gun point outside my house in the middle of the night. It's a very startling sound and there is no "familiar" quality to it.

 

[minor4th]

Nel said he agrees that Reeva could not have screamed after she was shot in the head. So there goes all the witness testimony about Reeva screaming after the shots ended. So either it was Oscar screaming, or the witnesses have mistaken the timing of the shots vis a vis the screaming

 

[minor4th]

Nel also concedes that there are discrepancies between the State's witnesses

 

[Deleted member 102539]

First: Thank you so much to all of you for your updates and grateful statements. This makes it possible for me to imagine what happened in court the last two days. Thanks a lot :loveyou: :blowkiss: :tyou:


Changing the actions OP claimed in his affidavit perhaps could explain what the witnesses heard - maybe I'm wrong with my following speculations but I don’t believe OP’s affidavit version


1. there was an argument.... he attacked Reeva.... she fled (with her iPhone) into the toilet room, locked the door...

2. OP threatened her: "Come out by yourself or I'll get you out!".... Reeva said: "NO! If you will do this I call for help, I have my handy with me"

3. OP becomes increasingly angry.... he takes his cricket bat.... banging against the door once....

4. Reeva screams for help.... OP imitate her screams... thinks he is in a stronger position because of her fear...

5. Reeva screams louder....

6. OP banging against the door several times.... one door panel smashed....

7. now he can see Reeva inside the toilet room....

8. Reeva is crying, screaming desperately for help very loud.... (the bathroom window is open, neighbours could hear her screams)....

8. OP takes his gun... turns on the lights in the bathroom for a better view....

9. he fires the first shot through the not broken part of the door, aiming where he sees Reeva - this hits Reeva's thigh.... she's still screaming....

10. now OP knows he must bring Reeva to silence..... he fires the second shot through the broken panel, he can see exactly where Reeva is - this hits Reeva's shoulder because she's still moving, trying to dodge the gunshots.... still screaming....

11. OP fired the third shot through the broken panel... this hits Reeva's head..... her screams fall silent... Reeva is dead immediately.... time: appr. 3:17…..

12. OP fired the fourth and last shot, again through the not broken panel.... Reeva lies on the ground of the toilet room.... this shot hits the toilet wall but it doesn't matter....

13. OP goes to the balcony, screaming for help.... he takes his iPhone and returns to the bathroom.... he calls Stander.... goes downstairs to open the door....

14. back in the bathroom.... OP opens the toilet door.... pulls out Reeva from the toilet room.... grabs her bloody iPhone and places it at the bathmat near the cricket bat and his gun...

15. then he carries Reeva downstairs....


* first he used the cricket bat, then his gun.... that's the reason why no witness heard the bang... bang... bang noise of the cricket bat....

* two shots through the not broken panel, two shots through the broken panel....

* witnesses didn't heard the cricket bat noises because this wasn't as loud and two people cried very loud all the time.... they awoke by Reeva's screams.... the next they heard were the gunshots in which Reeva's voice broke off...

Yyyyessss, Pistolius!!! IMO too!

But I remember 3 bullet holes in the not broken panel?

 

[Trooper]

Nel said he agrees that Reeva could not have screamed after she was shot in the head. So there goes all the witness testimony about Reeva screaming after the shots ended. So either it was Oscar screaming, or the witnesses have mistaken the timing of the shots vis a vis the screaming

Actually, Nel said nothing of the sort.. he , in objecting to Roux painting the scenario to Dr Stipp as a FACT, that the head shot was FIRST, which is not the stipulated facts, and which Roux was trying to propose to the witness in error AS a fact. ( it was dealt with in the objection and the ruling hasn't come down yet)

Nels said.. the witness states she WAS screaming both before the shots AND DURING the shots.. therefore, the head shot was the LAST shot and not the first, which was the scenario, the Accused scenario wanted tabled.. This resulted in a long and tense interchange, and in the end Roux had to submit and resile from portraying his idea that the head shot was the first.. he had to admit to and continue along with his cross examination on the proviso that this theory is NOT the state case , it is the version of the accused and must be addressed as such.

Then Roux attempted to question Dr Stipp on what Roux says is OSCARS version and what does Dr Stipp think about it?? Dr Stipp replied.. I understand you are making an observation about my testimony.. ( that is, Dr Stipp understood that Roux was offering an OPINION and a THEORY and not a stipulated fact...

it all ended in tears anyway because not long after this, Dr Stipp drops the bombshell that he saw a person. .he wont be drawn on man or woman IN the bathroom, WITH the light on, the SCREAMS and SHOTS were simultaneously occurring.. at this point , Roux calls for a very hast and sudden adjournment for the afternoon. no doubt to consult with his client.

 

[dgfred]

Nel said he agrees that Reeva could not have screamed after she was shot in the head. So there goes all the witness testimony about Reeva screaming after the shots ended. So either it was Oscar screaming, or the witnesses have mistaken the timing of the shots vis a vis the screaming

Actually I wanted to ask you: What does it matter who was screaming?

The reasons of why and how mean much more to me... not what happened after the shots or as the shots were fired.

Even if witnesses were wrong about the screams... they don't have anything to do with how things got to that point.

Do you see what I'm asking? I know it isn't too clear.

 

[Trooper]

the interesting thing , among so many, of Dr Stipps testimony was the person he saw in the bathroom, during this screaming , shooting moment. A light coloured silhouette. either it's Reeva OR Oscar with his legs on.

Because, if it's Oscar, he couldn't be WITHOUT his legs on.. the top of the bathroom window is frosted, and without his legs he wouldn't be HIGH enough , or plainly on his knees... so.. was it Oscar with his legs ON during the shooting, screaming lights on in the bathroom period?? or was it Reeva, standing on her own legs.. remains to be seen.