Trial Discussion Thread #1 - 14.03.03-06, Day 1-4

[Cherwell]

But the cricket bat successfully broke the door through, so if he used the cricket bat first to try to get at her ...he was successful. Why would he need to then go get a gun and shoot her? That really makes no sense, and even the state is not putting that forth as a possibility.

He broke a panel of the door - not enough to get through. Maybe he was in such a rage that he lost patience and picked up the gun. He might have had it with him already.

You asked for a scenario so I've suggested one. It's not implausible. People who fly into rages are unpredictable, and we don't know what might have provoked him.

 

[gxm]

Oh good grief, the problem the defense has is that anyone was screaming before or during the gun shots. We know that Reeva was awake and in the toilet room so if she'd heard OP screaming (and who screams as they sneak up to subdue an intruder?) she would have shouted "Are you okay, Oscar?" and he would have known it was her. The fact that there are several witnesses that heard screaming and/or arguing before and during the gun shots, IMO, destroys the defense narrative.

 

[aa9511]

Forgot to mention, he said man's scream much lower in tone. He made the differential.

This is important!!!!

So, IMO, there were definately a woman's screams there.

 

[Lyra500]

How can that be?

Hmm let's see - a scenario where battering a hole in the door happens first.

OP and Reeva are in the midst of a furious row. She runs and locks herself in the loo. OP smacks a hole in the door with the cricket bat, Reeva starts shrieking in fear for her life, Oscar completely loses it and shoots her.

 

[Lyra500]

That would be RS locking herself in the loo, OP trying to break the door down with the bat to get at her, then totally losing it and using the gun.

Exactly

 

[aa9511]

'On the second occasion there were 3 bangs, one on top of the other. Bang bang bang.'

Łunch

Is he talking about the gunshots or the "bat shots"?

 

[Amber29]

First: Thank you so much to all of you for your updates and grateful statements. This makes it possible for me to imagine what happened in court the last two days. Thanks a lot :loveyou: :blowkiss: :tyou:


Changing the actions OP claimed in his affidavit perhaps could explain what the witnesses heard - maybe I'm wrong with my following speculations but I don’t believe OP’s affidavit version


1. there was an argument.... he attacked Reeva.... she fled (with her iPhone) into the toilet room, locked the door...

2. OP threatened her: "Come out by yourself or I'll get you out!".... Reeva said: "NO! If you will do this I call for help, I have my handy with me"

3. OP becomes increasingly angry.... he takes his cricket bat.... banging against the door once....

4. Reeva screams for help.... OP imitate her screams... thinks he is in a stronger position because of her fear...

5. Reeva screams louder....

6. OP banging against the door several times.... one door panel smashed....

7. now he can see Reeva inside the toilet room....

8. Reeva is crying, screaming desperately for help very loud.... (the bathroom window is open, neighbours could hear her screams)....

8. OP takes his gun... turns on the lights in the bathroom for a better view....

9. he fires the first shot through the not broken part of the door, aiming where he sees Reeva - this hits Reeva's thigh.... she's still screaming....

10. now OP knows he must bring Reeva to silence..... he fires the second shot through the broken panel, he can see exactly where Reeva is - this hits Reeva's shoulder because she's still moving, trying to dodge the gunshots.... still screaming....

11. OP fired the third shot through the broken panel... this hits Reeva's head..... her screams fall silent... Reeva is dead immediately.... time: appr. 3:17…..

12. OP fired the fourth and last shot, again through the not broken panel.... Reeva lies on the ground of the toilet room.... this shot hits the toilet wall but it doesn't matter....

13. OP goes to the balcony, screaming for help.... he takes his iPhone and returns to the bathroom.... he calls Stander.... goes downstairs to open the door....

14. back in the bathroom.... OP opens the toilet door.... pulls out Reeva from the toilet room.... grabs her bloody iPhone and places it at the bathmat near the cricket bat and his gun...

15. then he carries Reeva downstairs....


* first he used the cricket bat, then his gun.... that's the reason why no witness heard the bang... bang... bang noise of the cricket bat....

* two shots through the not broken panel, two shots through the broken panel....

* witnesses didn't heard the cricket bat noises because this wasn't as loud and two people cried very loud all the time.... they awoke by Reeva's screams.... the next they heard were the gunshots in which Reeva's voice broke off...

First thanks to all for the great updates as I haven't been able to follow consistently but have been reading page by page trying to stay in the loop!

I agree with your post here, thank you for such a thought out version. I too think he took the cricket bat to the door before the gun shots.

 

[AlwaysShocked]

Oh yes, it can be reconciled. The doctor thought he heard two series of gunshots. The screams he heard were between the first and the second series of sounds.

If the first sounds were the bat hitting the door and the second sounds the actual gunshots, that reconciles it.
---------------------
From above: "Is he talking about the gunshots or the "bat shots"?"

This witness, the doctor, thought that both sets of sounds were gunshots. The facts tell us this could not have been the case.

At dispute at this time is whether the first set was gunshot or bat shot and thus, the second set had to have been the opposite. The doctor says they sounded the same to him.

---------------------------

In thinking about it, it seems "ear witnesses" are every bit as bad as eye witnesses. These four witnesses are all over the place in terms of how many shots they heard, aren't they? It is kind of like reading the testimony of the various witnesses at the Kennedy assassination site. Different people heard different numbers of gun shots that day.

Ballistics has determined that four shots were fired in this case.

 

[shane13]

Clearly there is more than one interpretation of the evidence because the way I see it, the only way to reconcile the witnesses' testimony is in a way that favors OP's version.
There is still a lot of trial left, so conclusions at this point are premature.

BBM

Maybe it would have been more proper to NOT have snipped my post.
Nothing is further from the truth that your sentence in bold. So far, Roux/OP's version is absurd, and each witness ahs told Roux that in effect, despite badgering, distortions and outright lies from Roux.

The one thing we can agreee on, is of course, we need to wait till the trial's conclusion.

<modsnip>

 

[aa9511]

Open the bathroom window???

GOOD thinking!!

He was probably thinking up his story as the doctor was working on poor Reeva.

He already knew she was dead.

He was thinking of what he was going to say.

OMG I think you are absolutely right!! He was probably thinking, burglar came in...uh oh...but from where?

 

[minor4th]

He was clear that all of the bangs he heard sounded like gunshots. They all sounded the same. It is <modsnip> OPs team who keep insisting the second set of sounds must be the cricket bat because that supports OPs story. That does not mean it is a proven fact.

Apparently this is not in dispute. There are apparently gunshots in the panel that was knocked out of the door, so no one (except people on this board) are suggesting that the cricket bat could have come before the gunshots. The state is not contesting this.

 

[minor4th]

BBM

Maybe it would have been more proper to NOT have snipped my post.
Nothing is further from the truth that your sentence in bold. So far, Roux/OP's version is absurd, and each witness ahs told Roux that in effect, despite badgering, distortions and outright lies from Roux.

The one thing we can agreee on, is of course, we need to wait till the trial's conclusion.

But speaking generally now, despite anyone's statements about not being an apologist, the people are not stupid.

Like I said, there are different interpretations of the evidence. For you to conclude that there is no validity at all to my interpretation is rather dogmatic - <modsnip>.

 

[minor4th]

Oh yes, it can be reconciled. The doctor thought he heard two series of gunshots. The screams he heard were between the first and the second series of sounds.

If the first sounds were the bat hitting the door and the second sounds the actual gunshots, that reconciles it.

But even the state is not suggesting that the cricket bat was first. This is just a theory that has been speculated about on this board, but the state doesn't contest that the gunshots were first and the cricket bat was later. Roux stated this in court and Nel did not object or attempt to argue the point.

Apparently a couple of the gunshots were through the panel that was broken out by the cricket bat, so it's impossible for the cricket bat breaking the door could have happened before the gunshots.

 

[soozieqtips]

Hey guys. Not all of us have the same viewpoint in all of this, which is fine.

Let's just play nice and agree to disagree.

 

[Trooper]

OMG OMG!

THERE IS NOT REASON FOR HIM TO GO UPSTAIRS DURING THE MIDDLE OF THAT.

GUILTYYYYYYYYYYYYY.

btw what does "off himself" mean?

I apologise for that terminology AA.. I was using common Australian vernacular... It means to kill oneself.. to suicide..

While Dr Stipp was frantically looking for any sign of life on Reeva, and after removing Oscars fingers from Reeva's mouth. ( will not go into detail about that , just now) .. Oscar disappears from view and goes upstairs.. ( to ting his lawyer?? to open the bathroom window?) and because Oscar is distraught, Dr Stipp concedes the possibility that Oscar may have gone upstairs to kill himself. He asks the security guard where the gun is. perhaps it still has a bullet in it and he is concerned that Oscar will use it to kill himself upstairs out of view.. The guard has the weapon, or has it secured, somewhere.

 

[soozieqtips]

I apologise for that terminology AA.. I was using common Australian vernacular... It means to kill oneself.. to suicide..

While Dr Stipp was frantically looking for any sign of life on Reeva, and after removing Oscars fingers from Reeva's mouth. ( will not go into detail about that , just now) .. Oscar disappears from view and goes upstairs.. ( to ting his lawyer?? to open the bathroom window?) and because Oscar is distraught, Dr Stipp concedes the possibility that Oscar may have gone upstairs to kill himself. He asks the security guard where the gun is. perhaps it still has a bullet in it and he is concerned that Oscar will use it to kill himself upstairs out of view.. The guard has the weapon, or has it secured, somewhere.

Maybe he was trying to remove anything incriminating and checking everything was laid out to coincide with the story he'd made up. Unless he was taking a pee.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Excuse me - it's not a bombshell that Shipp saw the lights on and a person walking. It comports with Oscar's statement that after the shooting he put on his prosthetics and turned the light on

Yes he did say that.

 

[aa9511]

Roux is trying the cricket bat sounds and gunshot sounds on Dr Stipp.. Stipp letting Roux take his question all around the mulberry bush without interrupting to answer.. waiting till its quite clear Roux has come to the end of whatever question it is.. Roux is putting it to Dr Stipp the timing of the sounds and the rhythm and quality of the shots..

But what is Roux going to contest now? This witness has already confessed to hearing two sets of sounds. That means that, in all likelihood, the second set was from the cricket bat. WAIIIIIIITTTT.........

What if OP tried to knock down the locked door with the cricket bats FIRST??

AND THEN FIRED THE GUN?

 

[Amber29]

Yes, I believe you are.

Re: your prior post, I have been thinking about this:

Oscar calls security (or whoever it was), as you calculated, about 2 minutes after he would have shot the gun. I would expect, if he knew it was Reeva the whole time, to kind of hedge-and-haw about calling anyone. To take some time to set up the scene, think about what he was going to do. I would not expect a guilty person to very shortly afterwards, call the police.

UNLESS, he knew someone would have heard the gunshots. I mean, there were 4 of them. It looks as if there were neigbors and people all around him. Surely, he figured out SOMEONE would have heard those gunshots.

So, upon thinking of this, he thinks, well omigosh now I have to start putting on my act. I have to start screaming and crying. I have to go out on the balcony so everyone can hear my screaming for help. I have to get Reeva and take her downstairs to make it seem like this was all just a terrible accident.

I am surprised, thought, at how quickly he thought all of it through.

JMO.

****Also, I think the 2 minutes or so were for putting his prosthetics on plus checking to see what position she was in, how bad damage was, etc..

BBM I completely agree he was already in cover up mode for sure.

As for the witnesses it's like how many witnesses are we up to now that woke up that night to the screaming/gunshots? 4? 1,2 I would say you can discredit but 4! I think the defense can do all the sound tests they want, that many people woke for a reason that night and it's not because they couldn't hear anything.

 

[shane13]

We all also need to remember that from OP's BH affidavit, he alleges great fear of an intruder or intruders.

But then instead of holing up in his bedroom with his gun, and calling police and security. he goes into the bathroom (allegedly) and on his stumps, and to confront what may be several people lying in wait with guns or machine guns etc. AND he warns them that he is coming in after them before entering the bathroom! (Again according to his own affidavit.)

As Det. Botha and the Pros have said, it's possible (and I agree) but highly improbable.