Trial Discussion Thread #11 weekend thread

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Thank you. There is a very large misunderstanding regarding questioning witness statements. Almost everybody falls into the trap that if you dispute a witness statement you are doubting their integrity or suggesting that they are lying. This is simply incorrect.

Believing that cases are won by accepting witness statements (specifically recollections) on face value would win you very few cases.

If you ask a witness whether a policeman said 'shoot' or 'don't shoot' he may give you either answer. He may have sent that person down for life because of his answer, and he could be wrong. He doesn't think he's lying, and he's not. You're not suggesting he's lying, you're testing his statement and he's merely providing a recollection. Nobody's suggesting that there's some kind of conspiracy for them to lie. A persons integrity, wealth and status in the community does not have one iota of bearing regarding hearing, eyesight, memory and all the other things needed to provide a solid witness statement.
With all due respect if one's intent isn't to infer a witness may be lying why use statements such as he 'cocked up'; 'tripped up' and 'remembered its meant to be a woman' in regards to that witness' testimony?

It's possible, imo, to question the veracity of a witness without the inference that they're designing their testimony to fit the known facts of the case.
 
And that's the point. With all due respect, I am not the person who first brought up db levels to make a point. I understand that none of us, as lay people, are physics experts or understand the complexities of such a thing. Saying "140 is 10 times blah blah blah" means nothing when comparing the bat sound measurement in comparison to the average woman's scream. It defies logic, to me, that they could hear screams but not the bat hitting the door. You can't deny one point while only acknowledging another when both points are logical. My overall point is you can't have it both ways. Either you acknowledge that the science is something we cannot understand or interpret, or acknowledge the possibility that what I am saying is right and the Burgers COULD, POSSIBLY hear the bat strikes.

I post from a cell phone so my messages are usually short and when there are a flurry of posts all at once, forget about it! I get lost. I don't usually argue about every tiny detail of the case, because I am looking at the picture as a whole, not putting my bet on one piece of evidence or another, but looking at all of the pieces to see what most likely happened.

That said, I believe the ear witness testimony goes against OPs version if events, significantly against his version.
 
With all due respect if one's intent isn't to infer a witness may be lying why use statements such as he 'cocked up'; 'tripped up' and 'remembered its meant to be a woman' in regards to that witness' testimony?

It's possible, imo, to question the veracity of a witness without the inference that they're designing their testimony to fit the known facts of the case.
That's because most of the posters who dared to question that a witness statement might not be totally correct are no longer here now. It's no real coincidence. I'm not referring specifically to my previous post. That post you refer to has an inference exactly as you read it, which is certainly allowed IIRC. What's the point of a Websleuth forum if you're not entitled to question both sides of a case? Not really sleuthing is it?
 
No, those averages were taken from women told to scream as loud as they possibly can as if in fear.

However, you did not mention that the loudest screams were recorded from women in RS's age group or that they could be heard 500-700 ft (152-213 metres) away across a busy highway and river. Conditions couldn't have been more different from the Silverwood Estate.
 
however, you did not mention that the loudest screams were recorded from women in rs's age group or that they could be heard 500-700 ft (152-213 metres) away across a busy highway and river. Conditions couldn't have been more different from the silverwood estate.

lol!!!
 
See you all tomorrow, thank you for the thought provoking posts! :pillowfight2:



:sleep: :eek:fftobed:

.
 
How did OP know when he was charging to the bathroom on his stumps... and in the dark... that the 'intruder' wasn't going to come flying out with a gun and shoot him instead? The 'intruder' would have heard him approaching and shouting so how was OP confident enough that he wasn't going to be shot at? Bearing in mind how terrified he said he was?
 
Would someone please tell me why many people argue about whether or not Reeva died where she was shot and not as OP was carrying her? I don't understand the significance of that point. Is it to explain away the blood by the bed?
 
I post from a cell phone so my messages are usually short and when there are a flurry of posts all at once, forget about it! I get lost. I don't usually argue about every tiny detail of the case, because I am looking at the picture as a whole, not putting my bet on one piece of evidence or another, but looking at all of the pieces to see what most likely happened.

That said, I believe the ear witness testimony goes against OPs version if events, significantly against his version.

I get that viper and I totally respect it. I can see how one can look at the evidence and come to the conclusion that Oscar is guilty. I see it. But there's too much doubt for me. Now I know why jury deliberations can be an emotional and daunting thing. It's making me emotional thinking about it. I don't know if I should believe him or not. I don't think the state proved beyond a reasonable doubt that he's guilty. It's an uneasy feeling.
 
I don't understand why some posts here have to get so hostile and accusatory. My god
 
Would someone please tell me why many people argue about whether or not Reeva died where she was shot and not as OP was carrying her? I don't understand the significance of that point. Is it to explain away the blood by the bed?

I think it's just to challenge OP's contention that Reeva died in his arms. Overall, it doesn't matter much to the case when or where she died.
 
However, you did not mention that the loudest screams were recorded from women in RS's age group or that they could be heard 500-700 ft (152-213 metres) away across a busy highway and river. Conditions couldn't have been more different from the Silverwood Estate.


I posted a link for God's sake. You really think i was trying to hide something or misrepresent? I didn't make one single conclusion or draw any inferences - I simply answered a question about how loud is a human scream.
 
Just re-watched the last part of Wednesday's testimony to get ready for tonight/today.

The look on Oscar's face is really interesting when they are talking about the iPad. Here is the exchange between Nel and Sales, and then look at Oscar's face...

Nel: So that would indicate that at 9:19pm that was accessed? (looking at a page with cars).

Sales: That's correct, my lady

Nel: And so one can go through every address, one can see on this particular web browser history, it would indicate to you what the person with the iPad did?

Sales: That's correct, my lady

Nel: And you confirm that is what you downloaded, you were able to open the specific websites and you were able to see what was browsed?

Sales: That's correct, my lady

Nel: Now... although you downloaded for the purposes of your evidence, the history and the bookmarks, you also downloaded all the data on that iPad?

Sales: That's correct, my lady

Nel: Was all of that information handed to the defense?

Sales: Yes, my lady

Oscar lifts his head and looks blankly for a few moments, as if in deep thought. Puts his head back down. Then looks up and does it again. Kind of "deer in headlights" kind of look.

After court adjourns, Roux is whispering to Oldwadge (but caught on microphone) "I cannot stop it"... "I cannot stop it"

Hmmmm......
 

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I just can't imagine what could be in OP's iPad history that could be that damaging to his case. If it's more *advertiser censored* then...not much.
 
Just re-watched the last part of Wednesday's testimony to get ready for tonight/today.

The look on Oscar's face is really interesting when they are talking about the iPad. Here is the exchange between Nel and Sales, and then look at Oscar's face...

Nel: So that would indicate that at 9:19pm that was accessed? (looking at a page with cars).

Sales: That's correct, my lady

Nel: And so one can go through every address, one can see on this particular web browser history, it would indicate to you what the person with the iPad did?

Sales: That's correct, my lady

Nel: And you confirm that is what you downloaded, you were able to open the specific websites and you were able to see what was browsed?

Sales: That's correct, my lady

Nel: Now... although you downloaded for the purposes of your evidence, the history and the bookmarks, you also downloaded all the data on that iPad?

Sales: That's correct, my lady

Nel: Was all of that information handed to the defense?

Sales: Yes, my lady

Oscar lifts his head and looks blankly for a few moments, as if in deep thought. Puts his head back down. Then looks up and does it again. Kind of "deer in headlights" kind of look.

After court adjourns, Roux is whispering to Oldwadge (but caught on microphone) "I cannot stop it"... "I cannot stop it"

Hmmmm......
Thanks for that lisa. The "I cannot stop it" remark is intriguing, as if something damaging was about to come out that Oldwage wanted kept quiet? Was it shortly afterwards that court was adjourned?
 
If anyone thinks audio tests conducted by Roux are totally worthless unless they exactly replicate every single condition - I think that's naive. Roux has to raise possibilities, nothing more.
 
You need to review the replay of the witnesses because he definitely said the cricket bat was after the gunshots. Period.

And I didn't skip anything about Stipp - I said there was silence after the second set of bangs - the witnesses contradict each other was to whether help help help was said before the 3:17 bangs or after - so I didn't include that as something that is established by the evidence.

The witness was asked whether the minor marks on the door could have been made before the gunshots. He said yes.

He also said that the bat was used to break open the door. When he showed how, he inserted it into a crack and showed how it was used to twist out the panels. At no point did he indicate that it had been swung back and smashed into the door four times.

You've said there was a silence after the bangs. Why? This has been "established as evidence" (which I thought was the point of your list), has it? When Stipp made it clear he heard "help, help, help" after the last bangs? He even knows where he was and the fact that he was talking to security from his balcony when he heard it - which can ONLY have been after the last bangs.

And you seem to have reached the bizarre conclusion that there can only have been one call for help audible that evening. Help is the natural word to scream, yell - I think it's passingly credible that it was used more than once on such a traumatic evening.

You know what? How about it was heard at two separate times, because it was used at two separate times? Shocker!

I think your list is somewhat biased, to be honest.
 
IN response to the posts of Lemon mousse. My thankyou button often goes into intertia, but I do want to record my thanks for your posts.

Neither Roux, nor Nel nor Oscar have any control or omnipotence over physics.. no one can change the way bullets travel, or sound travels, or what level certain sounds can reach.. physics, like gravity , or time, (elapsed and/or forward ) sun rising in the east, etc.. all these things are impartial, completely indifferent to the human condition. They take no sides, they infer no judgment, they simply are.


Take the process of time, for example..

at that infinitively split sliver of time, where Oscar has his finger on the trigger, its at the very point of no return.. at this point, physics says, definitively, that Oscar can be one of only two things. He can be a man in the zone to be a murderer, or he can actually , and consequently be a murderer .

He pulls the trigger.. the nth moment he does this, for Oscar, time has to be replayed backwards.. he has to arrange time in a sequence that relieves him of the burden of the particular consequence that physics decrees will ensue.. that bullet, and subsequent bullets are impartial to Oscar, and Reeva . The path those bullets follow, obeying without access to the suspension of physics , time, gravity, are totally indifferent to Oscars situation, and Reeva's.. they just do and be.

Oscar has no control or mastery over the inevitable sound they make, how far that sound travels and what sound that will impact on his ear or anyone elses... his only area of control is the decision to pull the trigger over the fulcrum of to fire.. or not to fire.

Once he's fired it, he has to play time backwards to bring himself forwards to the moment of that decision. To avoid or defer the consequences he has no choice but to attempt to suspend time from that moment, wind it backwards to the beginning point ,and re work the sequence , including every peripheral factor , every single one to bring himself back to that split second decision.

but time doesn't suspend its self for anyone.. you, me, murderers,

Oscar is as subject to these inhibitors as every other person thing and matter on this earth.

While Oscar is replaying elapsed time backwards, and then working it forwards, time, like it inconveniently does, with out exception, goes forward on its relentless path for everything else. Everything. .

People wake up to provoking sounds. People react to the sounds that reach them, as time and physics continues on, regardless. They make judgments about these sounds, and react. Reeva begins her inevitable process of dying. The Black Talon bullets , unable to resist gravity and time and physics expend their energy and , their designed job over, enter into the law of inertia. Reeva herself is traversing the unstoppable journey from energy depleted to intertia.

For Oscar. ..his process is to reconcile the progression of time, and physics before pulling the trigger, 4 times, and the progression of time and physics after pulling the trigger 4 times.

From his statements ( not testimony , he has taken no affirmation, he hasn't been subjected to x-examination, ) he hasn't achieved this reconciliation into the area of me assigning credibility. Except in one particular. He states he shot her, he killed her. I don't disagree with that claim.
 
The witness was asked whether the minor marks on the door could have been made before the gunshots. He said yes.



He also said that the bat was used to break open the door. When he showed how, he inserted it into a crack and showed how it was used to twist out the panels. At no point did he indicate that it had been swung back and smashed into the door four times.



You've said there was a silence after the bangs. Why? This has been "established as evidence" (which I thought was the point of your list), has it? When Stipp made it clear he heard "help, help, help" after the last bangs? He even knows where he was and the fact that he was talking to security from his balcony when he heard it - which can ONLY have been after the last bangs.



And you seem to have reached the bizarre conclusion that there can only have been one call for help audible that evening. Help is the natural word to scream, yell - I think it's passingly credible that it was used more than once on such a traumatic evening.



You know what? How about it was heard at two separate times, because it was used at two separate times? Shocker!



I think your list is somewhat biased, to be honest.


Think whatever you want.

You're interpreting evidence and giving weight to some and not to other. My list ONLY included items that are not in dispute, not challenged, and accepted by both sides. All the rest is disputed or contradictory or somehow in doubt.
 
I get that viper and I totally respect it. I can see how one can look at the evidence and come to the conclusion that Oscar is guilty. I see it. But there's too much doubt for me. Now I know why jury deliberations can be an emotional and daunting thing. It's making me emotional thinking about it. I don't know if I should believe him or not. I don't think the state proved beyond a reasonable doubt that he's guilty. It's an uneasy feeling.

I was a foreman on a jury for an attempted murder case a few years ago and it was seriously one of the most stressful things I've ever done. Deliberations are so intense... this forum is like Disneyland compared to that. I was extremely confident with our ultimate decision and yet still cried for a week after because I had so much emotion built up.
 
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