Trial Discussion Thread #21 - 14.04.09, Day 19

[Really?]

::
I wish we could see true transcripts because I'm sure he said "I try not to lie"(in his day to day life) when Nel asked him about his religion etc, not "I"ll try not to" (on the stand, in the present).. Actually a huge difference between the two.

my memory has been known to fail me......I recall him saying that when affirming he will tell the truth....."I try......:jail:

 

[soozieqtips]

I kind of doubt that is where they are going with this - but if so, they won't get very far. I think OP is just having a hard time completely accepting that his own deliberate actions caused Reeva's death (even if he did mistake her for a burglar)

Even though he didn't mistake her for a burglar... I think he's having a hard time accepting that his own deliberate actions will probably result in him spending a lot of time in a small cell reading the Bible, and asking where the Lord was last year when he was calling him instead of calling for medical help.

 

[jay-jay]

Am trying to figure out the explanation for the damaged bedrooms doors and whether or not he still maintains they were locked so he couldn't get out of the room.

Did he say today that he had to force them when he went upstairs for Reeva's bag ?
Thinking I must have misunderstood something because that was after he had taken Reeva downstairs ? So he couldn't possibly have had to force them .

He forced them when he came back upstairs from having gone downstairs to open the door (in order to take Reeva's body out to the car), not when he went upstairs for Reeva's bag. But, you are right, and this is something I meant to have said .. why would he needed to have forced that door if he had already gone out of it (i.e. from the bathroom, to go downstairs and open the door) .. it can't surely have got stuck in that short space of time?

Edit: .. have just gone back and read zwiebs post again from earlier today .. it says ..

O:...I ran downstairs to open the front door. I could barely pick Reeva up, wouldn't have been able to picke her up and open door. I opened the bedroom door as well....I tried to force open my bedroom door...it has latches at the bottom and top. I ran into it and the door opened

Now explaining how his house is wheelchair friendly and all about latches.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Trial Discussion Thread #21 - 14.04.09, Day 21



.. seems he forced the bedroom door open on his way out from there, but that's not quite how it sounded when he said it .. I'll try and youtube it tomorrow.

 

[turaj]

I can't keep up with all the pages here but finally found more of Nell's cross and all I can say is I like him...I think he is effective...and he is tailoring the questions to what I think he feels Milday considers important. OP sounds like a two year old. I think Nell could be the JM of SA.

 

[Cher352]

Found these sabcdigitalnews videos for today.
The first 4 are before the lunch break.
Only found one for the afternoon, not sure if that is all as I am just watching it now.

Session 1: Oscar Pistorius Trial: Wednesday 9 April 2014, Session 1 - YouTube

Session 2: Oscar Pistorius Trial: Wednesday 9 April 2014, Session 2 - YouTube

Session 3: Oscar Pistorius Trial: Wednesday 9 April 2014, Session 3 - YouTube

Session 4: Oscar Pistorius Trial: Tuesday 8 April 2014, Session 4 - YouTube

Session 5: Oscar Pistorius Trial: Wednesday 9 April 2014, Session 5 - YouTube

 

[minor4th]

That ain't murder?

Nope.

 

[Feynman]

Exactly, he does not want to be cornered. To me his whole story just does not make sense. If there was enough light to even see the fans....there was light to find the gun....but not enough light to see a human form missing from bed? And "one" noise made him shoot multiple times. Right...anger management problem. Indulged life.

Sure he's sorry now. He knows he has lost everything.

IMO

Nope. The fans are visible because the balcony doors are open. Close the doors, blinds, curtains, it gets pitch dark. THE PT HAS NEVER DISPUTED THIS. You don't need light to find a gun you put under/by the bed; you can easily feel your way around to that. (Haven't we all done something similar in pitch dark?)

 

[minor4th]

Hey Minor.

What's a suspended sentence verdict which may be issued? Jail time which Oscar doesn't actually serve?

Thank you

Basically it's like probation - there is an actual sentence imposed but it's not actually served as long as the convict follows whatever rules are imposed on his conditional release.

 

[Rumpole]

OP can not be found guilty of any crime involving the shooting at/killing of, an intruder. There was no intruder. No intruder was in any way harmed or even threatened.

OP may well have fired at what he imagined to be an intruder, but me MISSED.

The "imaginary intruder" got away, vanished, was never there.

What did happen is that OP "missed" the "intruder" and hit Reeva... ACCIDENTALLY.

I hope that clears things up for everybody.

 

[Duchy]

Well glad we got that burning question out there... where was the fan plugged in :floorlaugh:

OP was too polite? to say.... how the heck would you know WHAT was plugged in to that extension lead BEFORE the Cops got there... and plugged in camera chargers etc... then perhaps just plugged something in that they tought was there before.

THAT is what the issue with Police contamination is all about... you can not actually rely on the photo detail once you KNOW somethings were changed.

Don't know why he just didn't say cops must have removed fan plug from ext. lead and plugged clippers in.

 

[Duchy]

That's very astute - because that can only be what he seems to be insisting on, if he wasn't aiming to shoot anyone behind it.

Maybe he meant he shot the 4 shots involuntarily :floorlaugh:

 

[BritsKate]

I agree that there's a difference - Mrs. Stipp was clearly lying (or she was tricked by the police into signing a statement that they fudged) and Oscar's was an in-artful use of words that has now been clarified - no reason for him to contradict himself and give a different version now. It's not like he totally made up seeing a person that he didn't see.

Yes, it was a mistake to shoot through the door - he mistakenly believed it to be an intruder. That ain't murder. Is he minimizing it at times? YES, of course he is.

But that's NOT what the law in South Africa says. It states that if Oscar knew shooting through that door could lead to someone's death and he proceeded anyway it is murder with the requisite intent being proven by dolus eventualis.

The only thing that stops it from being murder is mitigating the requisite intent with putative self-defence. It doesn't matter if it was Reeva or an intruder which Nel made very clear during the bail proceedings.

Oscar Pistorius shot at a door either knowing or having the duty to know that someone might be hit and killed by his bullets. Whether it is a robber or Reeva behind the door is irrelevant: the Error in Objecto rule, where someone intends to murder A, but accidentally murders B, still results in a murder conviction.

In a case where the state has proven that an accused had shot and killed another person in his house in the absence of an attack on his life or property, it would be difficult to escape conviction for murder unless the accused is found to have acted in putative self-defence.

http://sacns.scripturelink.net/2014/03/oscar-pistorius-will-not-be-acquitted.html
http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/oscar-pistorius-criminal-law-101/

 

[Feynman]

I've always thought that 66 seconds was not long enough.

Dispatcher answers phone. OP says he needs an ambulance. Dispatcher asks for address. OP gives it. Dispatcher asks what is wrong. OP tells dispatcher ALL of Reeva's injuries. Dispatcher then would need to say to bring her in instead of waiting for ambulance.

Now, would the dispatcher really tell someone to bring Reeva in in the car instead of waiting for an ambulance IF the extent of Reeva's injuries had truly been explained? I don't think so.

MOO

66 seconds is more than enough time - easily.

And I need to ask: Why do you think OP would need to describe all of Reeva's injuries? What a waste of precious time that would be.

I just timed myself: "Sir, you should bring her in yourself instead of waiting for an ambulance." Five seconds max.

 

[kaos]

OP can not be found guilty of any crime involving the shooting at/killing of, an intruder. There was no intruder. No intruder was in any way harmed or even threatened.

OP may well have fired at what he imagined to be an intruder, but me MISSED.

The "imaginary intruder" got away, vanished, was never there.

What did happen is that OP "missed" the "intruder" and hit Reeva... ACCIDENTALLY.

I hope that clears things up for everybody.

Not quite. If the intruder wasn't there, then he couldn't have missed him/her as there was nothing to miss.

 

[jay-jay]

I missed that but he did make sure he mentioned most of the doors were 'wheelchair-friendly' even though, to my knowledge, he doesn't use a wheelchair at all.

I found that interesting.

I found it interesting, too .. and interesting why he even made reference to them being 'wheelchair friendly', why is that relevant .. he even went as far as to say he had them put in, but I can't really see that as the door surround in the bedroom already appears to have been designed for a double door in the first place

 

[soozieqtips]

66 seconds is more than enough time - easily.

And I need to ask: Why do you think OP would need to describe all of Reeva's injuries? What a waste of precious time that would be.

I just timed myself: "Sir, you should bring her in yourself instead of waiting for an ambulance." Five seconds max.

You don't think they'd ask for details of the injuries to ascertain whether it was safe for her to be moved or not? People with neck or spinal injuries shouldn't be moved. If OP said he'd shot his girlfriend in the head, do you think they'd have told him to bring her in? Or are you assuming they didn't ask for any details?

 

[steveml]

BBM... I strongly agree!

According to Oscar's testimony everybody and their brother... literally... has been a victim of crime at some point in South Africa. His whole family has apparently been terrorized.

Yet, they are not shooting people in the middle of the night.

So is it the lack of legs? According to him, he was raised to be just like everybody else and has lived his life as such. Not only that, he has exceled beyond what most able-bodied people can do.

They have not convinced me at all, not even close, that he has good reason to be any more terrified than every single citizen living in South Africa.

Hi Lisa,

I was just reading some info. from people living in SA and quite a few people were saying it's a very region/wealth centered insecurity.

There were some people saying they felt no real sense of danger, and a few saying security is a worry but it does not seem unusual as this is how they have always lived.

There was only one comment that really stood out and that was a guy who'd recently got his own place. It wasn't on a gated complex, however he did say that fearing for your life and being ready to protect you and your loved ones in SA is not being paranoid, it's being rational.

One thing that surprised me is a mention that it's quite normal for all internal doors to have locks.
In the UK I think this is quite unusual. If we have internal door locks it's usually for privacy, rather than security.

 

[jay-jay]

::
I wish we could see true transcripts because I'm sure he said "I try not to lie"(in his day to day life) when Nel asked him about his religion etc, not "I"ll try not to" (on the stand, in the present).. Actually a huge difference between the two.

Yes, same here .. in fact I asked on yesterday's thread if anyone knew if they were available online .. it's much easier to try and find something on a transcript than it is to go trawling through hundreds of youtube vids of the actual trial. I found the ones of the Mark Duggan inquest, and it was much better being able to refer back to the testimonies, documented verbatim.

 

[Rumpole]

Not quite. If the intruder wasn't there, then he couldn't have missed him/her as there was nothing to miss.

Sure he missed! Otherwise there would be a dead intruder and Reeva would still be alive.

The intruder was two doors down about to break in somewhere else... but he ran off when he heard all the commotion at OP's house.

 

[Duchy]

Yyyesss!!!! And why had she have taken the phone into this room???????????????

I learned my lesson doing this....dropped my phone in the loo:facepalm: