Trial Discussion Thread #22 - 14.04.10, Day 20

[TorisMom003]

I am listening to todays court proceedings and I honestly do not know how Nel was able to keep himself from banging his head against the wall or the podium. My word, I have wanted to hit something for the last 15 mins now.

MOO

 

[lisasalinger]

Oscar carries a firearm everywhere with him, even on the lake, and its always one up. Chambered and ready to go.

He goes to the firing range frequently. He knows how to shoot, he enjoys shooting. He knows what a bullet can do.

He is constantly terrified so he keeps it with him for protection. He even keeps bullets in his drawer, even though it's negligent and illegal, but he's so darned scared all the time that he must have protection everywhere.

He hears a bathroom window open and obviously it must be an intruder. He is freaking out with fear. Isn't this the reason he has his gun in the first place? Of course he's going to get his gun.

He has the presence of mind to get himself, on his stumps, over to his side of the bed to get his weapon. This is not an easy task for him on his stumps, but he does it quite consciously. Again, this is a gun that he keeps one up at all times because he needs protection. He takes the holster off from the gun. A deliberate action because the gun is of no use if it's in its holster. You take a holster off when you intend to use it.

He considers that he shouldn't turn on a light or make loud noises because the intruder(s) will hear him. He had to think that through. He whispers to Reeva.

Now he's almost in the hallway. He has to slow down because they might be in the hallway. He thought that through.

He moves to the bathroom, slowly, intently, leaning against the wall. Mindful that they could be there. He now screams at them to get out. He decided he had to scream because now it's getting really tense.

Walks in the bathroom and mindfully recalls that he looked toward the shower. Nobody is in there. He recalls the scene very clearly. Very intently and mindfully looks at the window, looks at the door, looks back at the window, looks at the door. He considers that they might come in the window and start shooting at him.

He remembers there are ladders outside that these intruders could use.

Hears a noise in the toilet, thinks they are coming out...

BUT... he didn't have time to think about the action of pulling the trigger... four times. Nope. Couldn't possibly have considered that he'd ever pull the trigger on his one up gun that he carries everywhere for his protection.

He THOUGHT about everything else prior to that moment. But now all of a sudden he can't be held responsible for thinking when the gun went off?

He is evading this point and his story makes no sense because it's a LIE.

He thought about it, he KNEW there was a person in the toilet, aimed at the door, had his finger on the trigger and pulled 4 times.

Anybody who believes that he did not intentionally shoot that gun is in serious major denial.

Oscar has PROVEN to me in the last three days that he is a liar and a manipulator. I believe his intruder story as much as I believe that the .38 Special ammunition is his Dad's... who he hasn't spoken to in years... but who has the combination and access to his safe, and obviously a key to his house. That makes sense.

 

[IfIMay]

The text messages show that he was not jealous of the ex at all and there was testimony about it as well. OP knew that Reeva was going to visit her ex and they talked about it and OP was perfectly fine with it

and yet he called her twice in twenty minutes while she was at said meeting to "check in" and ask "is everything alright?". Yeah.. he's not jealous. :wink:

 

[minor4th]

Did we ever find out whether there is a panic button and where it is?

 

[soozieqtips]

Hi all, many thanks for your good wishes earlier this morning. It was a very long wait and it really cheered me up to receive well wishes from total strangers as once my wife ad to leave, you are so removed from your normal life - its almost like another world, most of you will know the feeling! I am now recovering from a successful surgery to repair facial fractures. Anyway, during the 7 hour wait for surgery I did manage to watch some live trial coverage as it was on Sky News. Expected to miss today so was very pleased to catch it! i couldn't hear everything but it seemed to me just how awkward and frustrating OP is at times. He has clearly been schooled in what to expect and is rightly very wary of Nel but I still find his attitude absolutely baffling, counter productive and potentially self-destructive.

For someone who is mainly relying on two things:
1) his honesty - the accuracy of his narrative and his memory
2) his character - his relevant background history, the relationship, his general demeanour
...I believe he has created further doubts purely based on the content and style of his responses and that these will surely have a very negative impact on his defence - perhaps fatally*

I guess it just shows that despite everything and everyone drumming into him what to say, how to say it, how to deal with things and also knowing that he has to try his very best to give himself any chance of a reduced sentence... That he just still, cannot help himself. They say leopards cannot change their spots or at least, not for very long. It's a really ee opener into the mind of a narcissist as he almost surely is.

I am too tired and groggy to go into all the inconsistencies just yet (I am seriously doped up to the eyeballs on a variety of painkillers and so feel wonderfully numb but not the sharpest I've ever been!). I have to have regular obs through the night so instead of sleep, I look forward to spending the night reading through your insightful comments and opinions on the state of play.

I am concerned that OP has set this pattern now, is avoiding 95% of responsibility and is being allowed to be awkward and obstinate and quite frankly his attitude defies belief at times. Truly remarkable actually. I will elaborate further when I'm back at home recovering.

I also fear that Nel is not as organised and focused as I would like to see. His style can lack some drama and timing and the ability to really strike a telling blow in the court record. I have seen him waste quite a few opportunities and really hope he starts to make more things stick as to me, there are a growing number of gaping holes in this flimsy narrative.

It is all so blatantantly implausible to me that it is cringeworthy and I want it to be thoroughly and systematically dismembered and discredited as there needs to be justice and absolutely no doubts.
There is still too much grey area despite so many inconsistencies and improbabilities and it needs some order and clarity of presentation, <before> more DT witnesses and closing arguments.

Time for evening meds!
Thanks again.
TD

Welcome back True. Get some rest and then get on back here!!

I hope you caught the part where OP denied pulling the trigger in the restaurant debacle. Apparently, the gun discharged itself, and even though it's been proven that this particular type of gun cannot POSSIBLY go off unless someone pulls the trigger... it did go off!! And OP repeatedly insisted he did not pull the trigger. But he cannot explain how it was discharged, only that he didn't discharge it. Now, isn't that interesting? OP is holding a gun that cannot possibly go off unless someone pulls the trigger - the gun goes off - but it wasn't OP's fault, because he didn't do it!

 

[shane13]

BBM - That's the whole point. The analyst is saying that OP said he had no communication with his father, but for his father to be using OP's safe to store his ammo (OP stated this) then he'd have had to have had a key to OP's house and would be able to enter even when OP wasn't there - which she said was a glaring inconsistency in OP's story, ie, the 'no communication'.

That's great, thanks. We're all in agreement then on this one.

 

[lisasalinger]

And in regards to the Tasha's incident...

He also stated, in the heat of the moment during testimony...

"I didn't have time to think"

Yep... Roux did an awesome job of planting that seed. Seems it can be applied to just about everything.

 

[TorisMom003]

Did we ever find out whether there is a panic button and where it is?

Not yet. Hopefully that is coming later on in the trial.

 

[BritsKate]

So, here's my overall take on the last couple of days of cross examination:

* Oscar is a bad witness. This could be due to a variety of factors, take your pick: He's lying and his whole story is falling apart; He's nervous and not thinking clearly; He's not very articulate; He's confused, etc

* Oscar does shift blame when it would suit him better to accept responsibility for some things and be done with it. I do think he feels a bit victimized about all of this - but that might be understandable if he's telling the truth and it really was a mistake and he didn't mean to kill Reeva. Nevertheless, he should be polished enough at this point to keep that mentality in check.

* I'm not sure what to think about the sunroof incident because he is very firm about that and his voice sounds confident and true - and I also don't think DF and ST are very reliable witnesses. Whichever way the judge goes on this, I wouldn't have a problem

* The Tasha's incident happened and there's no getting around that. Irrespective of Darren's own culpability, Oscar was negligent in the way that he handled the firearm and should receive a penalty for this transgression.

* Nel has effectively raised some questions about OP's ability and willingness to tell the complete and honest truth - or maybe it's better said that Nel has raised some questions about OP's ability to perceive events with accuracy and without defensiveness. If I were the judge at this point, I'd be wondering if there were things that OP left out or spun in his version ..enough that I would consider the whole ball of wax with skepticism, but I wouldn't be convinced that OP's overall account is false, especially since the physical evidence and phone call data and such do tend to corroborate his version.

* If the trial stopped right now, and if I were the judge, I would find him guilty of culpable homicide in the shooting, and I'd find him guilty of the negligent handling of firearm at Tasha's. Probably wouldn't find him guilty of the sunroof shooting only because the two prosecution witnesses both lack credibility and have secondary agendas.

* Based on those verdicts, I would sentence him to 8 years in jail (don't ask me why - it just seems an appropriate number) with a possibility for parole after 4 years.

* It's too bad the police screwed things up and went about the investigation in such a sloppy manner because it's now impossible to know if Nel really made a point about the fans and the various objects in the crime scene because those photos are simply not reliable.

For me, until and unless there is actual evidence put forth to discredit the 5 people who heard a woman screaming, it's still murder. If the defence can manage that, then I might start considering culpable homicide. Maybe. Perhaps. Okay, probably not, but I can try.

JMO

 

[minor4th]

And in regards to the Tasha's incident...

He also stated, in the heat of the moment during testimony...

"I didn't have time to think"

Yep... Roux did an awesome job of planting that seed. Seems it can be applied to just about everything.

That was a big blunder on OP's part

 

[lisasalinger]

That was a big blunder on OP's part

I don't consider it a blunder. I consider it evasion.

 

[liesbeth]

Crime analyst also saying it's interesting that despite OP having no communication with his father, "that his father would have had a key to OP's house and his safe, and would be able to enter his home when he wasn't even there, in order to put ammunition in a safe. These are glaring inconsistencies in the story yet again".

Gerrie Nel asked OP if he was aware that his father had refused to make a statement on this matter.

 

[minor4th]

For me, until and unless there is actual evidence put forth to discredit the 5 people who heard a woman screaming, it's still murder. If the defence can manage that, then I might start considering culpable homicide. Maybe. Perhaps. Okay, probably not, but I can try.

JMO

I know - we look at the evidence differently and for whatever reason, I am more convinced by the forensic evidence and what I believe has been established by the timing and order of the shots/cricket bat, while you are more convinced by the ear witnesses' interpretation of what they heard. In my mind there has already been actual evidence that raises doubts about the ear witnesses, but you see it differently.

Fair enough. The judge will certainly have to weigh those contradictory aspects and decide how much weight to give each one.

But this is why I said if the trial stopped right this minute, that's how I would rule - no telling how that might change based on whatever else is to come in the trial

 

[minor4th]

I don't consider it a blunder. I consider it evasion.

I would say it's both.

 

[lonetraveler]

This morning when listening to beginning testimony, there was a part where Oscar lost the whine and kind of had an attitude (which is why I think Nel is CEing like this). It was about 20/30 minutes in.. Then I had to stop watching the trial. Did anyone notice this, or/and did anyone notice Oscar lose the little boy whine way of speaking throughout any of the rest of the testimony? Thanks.

I've got to say that hearing him whine like that was perplexing, amusing, and entertaining all at the same time. I'm cynical anyway and I'll admit that but I couldn't help but wonder if he was trying to lend credence to it being his voice screaming for help, sounding like a woman.

I'm sure it was a strain for him to maintain that whine for so long. I couldn't help but wonder if he was wearing a thong way too tight in order to whine like that. :floorlaugh:

 

[minor4th]

For me, until and unless there is actual evidence put forth to discredit the 5 people who heard a woman screaming, it's still murder. If the defence can manage that, then I might start considering culpable homicide. Maybe. Perhaps. Okay, probably not, but I can try.

JMO

Oh, forgot to mention - I'd also find him guilty of the illegal possession of the ammunition. His explanation about that was completely lame.

 

[soozieqtips]

That's great, thanks. We're all in agreement then on this one.

We certainly are.

 

[lisasalinger]

I would say it's both.

Evasion is deliberate. A blunder is a mistake. It can't be both... I respectfully put to you

It's the same thing as Oscar saying he owned a one up gun that he retrieved that night to protect himself, but couldn't possibly have intended to shoot the person that he was aiming at who was coming out of the toilet to attack him.

It makes no sense.

 

[Britlaws]

For me, until and unless there is actual evidence put forth to discredit the 5 people who heard a woman screaming, it's still murder. If the defence can manage that, then I might start considering culpable homicide. Maybe. Perhaps. Okay, probably not, but I can try.

JMO

He voluntarily went toward the so called danger, pulled the trigger, 4 times, with deadly black talons, into a confined space... he must have known that the type of bullets within the tiny space was likely to kill anyone behind the door or at best (if you can call it that) was reckless as to the likely outcome. The person behind the door did in fact die, so that is Murder, pure and simple, irrespective as to whether OP knew who was behind the door. Now, the putative self defence 'might' applyto knock it back to culpable homicide, but I will assert that this has nothing to do with the screaming - that would just go to show he knew it was Reeva, which I don't think is relevant to the murder charge if PT have proved the other elements of the offence.

 

[lisasalinger]

Oh, forgot to mention - I'd also find him guilty of the illegal possession of the ammunition. His explanation about that was completely lame.

BBM

Lets be fair here... his explanation wasn't lame... it was a lie. Lying is very relevant in this case.