Trial Discussion Thread #25 - 14.04.14, Day 22

[Sarahlou]

With the way OP has been able to lie his way all the way through this trial, I'm actually finding myself thinking there is something even more sinister that has gone on here ..

I'm curious. Could you elaborate on that?

 

[Rumpole]

So prosecutor was lying about Oscar leaving out the door slam in the morning?

<modsnip>

So Nel admitted it? I missed that.

Great to hear, but I have spotted several occasions where Nel is not only badgering.. but he is incorrect. I remain disappointed that either the Defence are not picking these things up, or else its the SA way to just let Prosecutor get away with it.

And surely there must be a limit to how many times that Nel can talk OP through the moments around the shots? Surely we are past that limit now.

The State has not yet offered THEIR version of events. I wonder how the details of that would stand up?

I don't get the SA system whereby the State have rested their case and yet have not even offered a version of events for the defense to respond to. I am sure that any version the State offers would have FAR MORE holes than OP's version.

Even if the State could discredit OP's version (in part) (which they have not IMO)... that in itself does NOT mean that ANYTHING else is automatically true, or even any better than OP's version. The State need a version that withstands the test of "Beyond Reasonable Doubt"... Yet they have not offered a version???

 

[Val1]

Wow, this is amazing stuff today. I don't understand why Nel says he wants something on the record as isn't it all on the record? Any SA lawyers to explain this for me please.

I am sure Roux is abiding by the court rules of not discussing the testimony with his client. And particularly when it is in the international media spotlight. This is just one case for him and he is not going to jeopardise his career. When this is over he will just move on to the next case.

I do think that OP's family may have told him to just answer the questions. He does seem better at that today so maybe he finally has taken someone's advice. It's not helping him much though.

I'm betting that OP or one of his family are here... way too many coincidences with the theories and questions we've been posting.

 

[TrueDetective]

Hi Guys, sorry not been able to join in much......

Just thinking about it, I get the inference that Reeva having eaten later means they weren't sleeping but it also doesn't back-up the state's theory that there was bad feeling or arguing does it? Not sure why it is so important, am I missing something?

Because it means OP's version is a LIE. He specifically stated that they only ate at 7pm and were in bed/asleep by 10pm. A nice quiet evening, nothing out of the ordinary at all... until the coincidence of intruders breaking in to his bathroom at 3am just at the very same he wakes up to perform fan duty.
Anything that confirms any part of his story as false throws doubt upon the entire version. It is absolutely fundamentally key to this case.

 

[Suthrnqt]

I do hope that Roux and the Judge follow up on Nel taunting and demanding that OP never mentioned toilet door slamming earlier today. Because OP most certainly DID. Nel was WRONG. I wish OP had accepted the CHALLENGE that Nel offered.. to check today's record.

A LOT of what Nel claims as confusing (Does not make sense) actually does make sense. It is only Nel for whom it does not make sense.

I am disappointed that it seems to be the norm for defense counsel to just let badgering and false accusations go without objection.

Didn't Nel correct himself and advise the court of his mistake after the break?

 

[momrids6]

Ok: isn't it an issue if the same exact story comes out time after time- isn't there supposed to be some variations in how an innocent, or any person tells of an incident? I am not talking about the stark variations, the little stuff- like whisper vs tone type stuff.

I will have to spend some time researching the differences between SA and US law....

 

[Cherwell]

So Nel admitted it? I missed that.

Great to hear, but I have spotted several occasions where Nel is not only badgering.. but he is incorrect. I remain disappointed that either the Defence are not picking these things up, or else its the SA way to just let Prosecutor get away with it.

And surely there must be a limit to how many times that Nel can talk OP through the moments around the shots? Surely we are past that limit now.

The State has not yet offered THEIR version of events. I wonder how the details of that would stand up?

I can't see that Nel's cross-examination differs much from Roux's, which also featured a lot of repetition and badgering.

As to the BIB - the State's thesis of events is gradually emerging, like a developing photograph.

 

[Cher352]

I do hope that Roux and the Judge follow up on Nel taunting and demanding that OP never mentioned toilet door slamming earlier today. Because OP most certainly DID. Nel was WRONG. I wish OP had accepted the CHALLENGE that Nel offered.. to check today's record.

A LOT of what Nel claims as confusing (Does not make sense) actually does make sense. It is only Nel for whom it does not make sense.

I am disappointed that it seems to be the norm for defense counsel to just let badgering and false accusations go without objection.

To be fair neither did the state when Roux crossed the state witnesses.

Seems like almost anything goes there. Whereas in some of the trials here in the US what seems like constant objections and sidebars are equally frustrating.

 

[04009margaret]

Guilty of what? Murder one?

SA lawyer on Sky said that OP has changed his actual defense 3 or 4 times whilst on the stand. He then said that the version OP has given this morning has made it obvious that OP either lied at his BH or is lying on the stand now & the judge would not be impressed with this. He went one step further & said that today's version dismisses self defense & shows intent under SA Law.

 

[hetty]

I think it most likely that Oscar is guilty, and I believe he will be found to be so, but I'm horrified at Nels tactics, does he want to see Oscar convicted or his complete mental disintegration?.

 

[Val1]

I don't think it looks good that OP has said again and again that he didn't have time to think, but has just mentioned he didn't fire a warning shot into the shower because he thought it would ricochet.

I thought the shower had a glass door a person could see through?

According to OP, it was so dark in the bathroom that he could only see the silhouette of the bathtub, yet he didn't seem to feel that an "intruder" could be hiding in wait in the shower stall ...

 

[Rumpole]

Didn't Nel correct himself and advise the court of his mistake after the break?

Apparently they did... I missed It :doh:

I posted above.

Today's thing was blatant... but Nel has been wrong on other points that he has used to badger OP.

 

[Val1]

Ok: isn't it an issue if the same exact story comes out time after time- isn't there supposed to be some variations in how an innocent person tells of an incident? I am not talking about the stark variations, the little stuff- like whisper vs tone type stuff.

I will have to spend some time researching the differences between SA and US law....

Are you referring to the oft repeated scripted lines OP spouts?

 

[shane13]

When does Shrien Dewani trial start?

 

[Murphys_Law]

Finally an overhead picture of the toilet room.

If only Reeva stood up against that little bit of wall where it toilet roll is mounted.

Perhaps she had been hiding close to the shared bathroom/toilette wall where the toilette roll mount is and OP drove her from that position by pounding on the outer tile wall(recall the busted tiles) with the cricket bat.

Reeva, then may have climbed onto the toilette in an attempt to get out through the window ... perhaps that is whyéwhere the oft repeated phrase (by Mel and Oscar) "Get Down!" factors in. Nel seems to have a bead on that particular phrase. Why? Perhaps because one of the closest neighbours has stated in their affidavit that they clearly heard the words "Get down".

Of course the question then arises - why did Nel not call one of the closest neighbours to give testimony? I reason that Nel was confident that one way or another during cross examination that the adjacent neighbours ( Eonlte and Michael Nhlegenthwa, who also phoned security around 3:16) would be called to the stand. Further, their testimony would act like bookends to the truth that Nel had been able to extract from OP before OP had heard the Nhlegenthwa testimony.

Clearly, all of the above is pure speculation on my part, but the phrase GET DOWN ,in my mind, is a significant one.

 

[Viper]

Barry Bateman &#8207;@barrybateman 1h
#OscarTrial Nel: the first shot hit Reeva in the hip. She fell on the magazine rack. You changed your aim and shot at it. BB

OP knew exactly where in the WC that magazine rack was. That intimate knowledge along with Reeva's screaming made hitting her more than just lucky, it was nearly impossible for him to miss her.

Barry Bateman &#8207;@barrybateman 1h
#OscarTrial Nel asking about the grouping. Pistorius says it’s not very good grouping at all. BB

I just posted that tweet because it made me laugh! :smile:

 

[Cher352]

This is torture. I am teetering on the edge of the fence here.

Don't feel bad, I feel that way on so very many cases thus my avatar of being stuck on the fence.

 

[Suthrnqt]

Apparently they did... I missed It :doh:

I posted above.

Today's thing was blatant... but Nel has been wrong on other points that he has used to badger OP.

So sorry Rumpole. Didn't mean to single you out like that. :blushing: I didn't see your post. I've had a hard time keeping up today, no matter how many diet cokes I chug. LOL. Thanks for being a gentleman about it.

 

[shane13]

SA lawyer on Sky said that OP has changed his actual defense 3 or 4 times whilst on the stand. He then said that the version OP has given this morning has made it obvious that OP either lied at his BH or is lying on the stand now & the judge would not be impressed with this. He went one step further & said that today's version dismisses self defense & shows intent under SA Law.

Thank you for that Margaret.

Key points I gather are that that was a SAn lawyer, and the last thing means he opines that OP will likely be found guilty of PM charge?
.

 

[zwiebel]

When does Shrien Dewani trial start?

next hearing scheduled for May 12th I believe, but I don't think date for the trial itself has been set yet.