Trial Discussion Thread #27 - 14.04.16, Day 24

[patCee]

I don't see that at 52:47...is that time right?[/QUOTE

Yes the time is right, let it run for a minute, just when Roux says the sound test will be played. Across in the gallery on the left.]

 

[Giles]

That's not what the evidence supports. 3:02 for Annette Stipp with a fast clock; 3:12 to shoot estimated by Oscar; 3:15 phone call by Dr. Stipp; 3:16 phone calls by two neighbours; 3:17 second bangs; 3:19 call to Stander; 3:20 call to netcare.

Those are the times we have to work with.

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

I believe Annette Stipp awoke at 3:02am (unprovoked, ie. nothing woke her, she had a cold). You are correct that her clock was a few minutes fast. The shots however came a few minutes later if my memory serves me. (Nel would have a field day with that - I will check!)

 

[aoibhinn]

I've attempted to put together a timeline of sorts, it might be helpful. I tried not to cram in too much info so the times would stand out. I've mostly used juror13 as a source (if this is not ok, please let me know), along with other reports from the individual court dates.

Question : Who is Mr Nhlengethwa? I've read his name in the reports but that's it....

--------------------------------​

Phone records - Calls to security on 14th Feb

Silverwood Security land line:

3:15:51am - Dr. Stipp (army training - assult rifle & pistol). Reported gunshots.
3:16:16am - Mr Nhlengethwa. No answer.
3:16:36am - Mr Nhlengethwa. Reported gunshots.

Silverwood Security cell phone:

3:21:33am - Op to Baba. OP cries.
3:22:05am - Baba to OP. OP says “everything is fine”.

Security other:

3:16am - Mr. Johnson (gun owner). Heard gunshots - backed up by security phone records.

Silverwood Security:

3:19:50am - OP to Stander

Gunshots/bangs & screams reported to security on 14th Feb

1:56am - Mrs. van der Merwe (very loud woman's voice over an hour)

3:00am (approx) - Mrs. van der Merwe (gunshots/bangs)
3:00am (shortly after)- Security guard on bike. (gunshots)
3:00am (approx) - Mrs. Burger (gunshots)
3:00am (approx) - Mr. Johnson (gunshots)
3:04am - Dr. Stipp. (gunshots)
3:04am - Mrs. Stipp (gunshots)
3:16am (before) - Mr Nhlengethwa (gunshots)

-------------------------------------------​

Dr. Stipp - hears fearful female screaming, sees lights in OP's bathroom.
Mr. Johnson - male & female yelling for help, female and male screams intermingled.
Mrs. Burger - male & female yelling for help, woman screaming with scream escalating.
Mrs. van der Merwe - loud woman's voice, screams.

-------------------------------------------​

3:12am OP reports firing his gun


3:17am (approx) - Mr. Johnson (gunshots)
3:17am - Dr. Stipp (gunshots)

-------------------------------------------​

I can make changes if needs be....

 

[Feynman]

D says that he can recognize gun shots because he heard them before and he knows gun shots. That sounds exactly like what Dr. Stander said, "I know gun shots".

It seems like they both agree that gun shots cannot be mistaken.

It's Dr. Stipp. Now Stipp heard gunshots, then cricket bat bangs, IMO. But since he's in gunshot mode, with all the excitement and adrenaline going, he thinks the second set of bangs is gunshot also. It's a natural conclusion. Stipp, unlike Dixon, is of course not privvy to the fact that there will be gunshots and there will be cricket bat bangs - and he is to be asked which is which, or if there is any difference at all, etc. But that is the situation Dixon is in. Much easier to hear a difference in the cool light of day, when you know ahead of time there will be a difference.

 

[weeeva]

Wait so no one has mock you or made any sarcastic remarks to you in an argument before?

Not when they were on the verge of killing me. No.

 

[aa9511]

Let's see if this works. I hopefully have the video to start at when you can see her bent over. She is in the middle of the picture. There is a woman sitting on her right (as we are looking at them) that has on a white shirt, wearing glasses with dark brown/black hair. To the left of the woman wearing glasses in the white shirt, you can see a white "bump". That "bump" is Aimee bent over so that her head is not showing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ry7H9rQ72yE#t=3168

ETA: At 52:53 you can see the woman in the white shirt with the glasses on reach over and pat Aimee on the back.

ETA2: At 53:31 you can see Aimee begin to sit up.

Thanks, I see it now.

And at I believe 55:20, you can see the lady next to her stroking her back in a comforting manner.

Oscar with his head down does not convince anyone that he is not following along. We saw him on the stand how he knew exactly what witnesses had testified to. So obviously he is paying attention, that was very clear.

Also I don't see what the point is of him having fingers on his ears as if blocking out the sound. We know he hears everything. He's not even pushing in on his ears as if to apply pressure to block out the sound. He simply has fingers placed delicately over his ears. Which does nothing to block out sound. And as I said, it's obvious he has been hearing what the witnesses have been saying and hearing what has been going on. Ridiculous and he is fooling no one and it just makes him seem like a child, which is maybe the impression he wants to give the judge with all of his nonsensical antics.

 

[TrueDetective]

If both the PT and DT accept that the the bat noises were first, I'm fine with that. They've both accepted that the gunshot noises were first and as such I'm also fine with that.

I don't know exactly what happened in the time between the shooting and phoning Netcare. I was waiting for Nel to help me on that one. Only Nel can answer why he didn't pursue his line of inquiry further. As things stand we are left with a lack of information, and so is Judge Masipa.

I cannot understand why OP made the decisions he did at the time of the alleged intruder, although it's very clear that he made wrong ones. I'm not able to confidently interpret OP's state of mind regarding this, and will leave that in the Judge's capable hands.

With regard to the integrity of the crime scene, I would not take anything that appears in the bedroom photos on face value. We know the SAPS have moved some items out of their original position, and we also know the SAPS went further than this in the bedroom and stole items. The PT's claim of an argument with intent to kill Reeva is not convincing enough for me to say that there was probably a fight.

We've still yet to hear the remaining defense witnesses therefore I'll reserve my judgement regarding the witness hearing arguing until this has been concluded.

There are also a few questions which weren't raised by Nel that concern me somewhat :-

If there was any evidence that OP used the cricket bat as a weapon against Reeva, why was this not addressed by Nel during cross-x with OP?

If OP had an available panic button/s why was this not addressed by Nel during cross-x with OP?

If there is any dispute regarding events after OP carried Reeva downstairs, why was this not addressed by Nel during cross-x with OP?

If OP had fought with Reeva, why wasn't the damaged bedroom door with gun pellet hole, air rifle or any other specific area addressed by Nel during cross-x with OP?

I totally agree. It's still a mystery to me why those aspects have been ignored.
They are too potentially important to disregard. I just don't get it! Especially the bedroom door damage.

 

[Really?]

This sound expert is now somehow not relevant anymore. Ok...

Even though Roux put him up there testifying on sound to support OP case.

If this guy really was a sound expert and made his case, I am sure there will be numerous posts of "fatal flaw".

Here is a post...

what may I ask is a ' fatal flaw '...:blushing:

 

[katydid23]

I've attempted to put together a timeline of sorts, it might be helpful. I tried not to cram in too much info so the times would stand out. I've mostly used juror13 as a source (if this is not ok, please let me know), along with other reports from the individual court dates.

Question : Who is Mr Nhlengethwa? I've read his name in the reports but that's it....

--------------------------------​

Phone records - Calls to security on 14th Feb

Silverwood Security land line:

3:15:51am - Dr. Stipp (army training - assult rifle & pistol). Reported gunshots.
3:16:16am - Mr Nhlengethwa. No answer.
3:16:36am - Mr Nhlengethwa. Reported gunshots.

Silverwood Security cell phone:

3:21:33am - Op to Baba. OP cries.
3:22:05am - Baba to OP. OP says “everything is fine”.

Security other:

3:16am - Mr. Johnson (gun owner). Heard gunshots - backed up by security phone records.

Silverwood Security:

3:19:50am - OP to Stander

Gunshots/bangs & screams reported to security on 14th Feb

1:56am - Mrs. van der Merwe (very loud woman's voice over an hour)

3:00am (approx) - Mrs. van der Merwe (gunshots/bangs)
3:00am (shortly after)- Security guard on bike. (gunshots)
3:00am (approx) - Mrs. Burger (gunshots)
3:00am (approx) - Mr. Johnson (gunshots)
3:04am - Dr. Stipp. (gunshots)
3:04am - Mrs. Stipp (gunshots)
3:16am (before) - Mr Nhlengethwa (gunshots)

-------------------------------------------​

Dr. Stipp - hears fearful female screaming, sees lights in OP's bathroom.
Mr. Johnson - male & female yelling for help, female and male screams intermingled.
Mrs. Burger - male & female yelling for help, woman screaming with scream escalating.
Mrs. van der Merwe - loud woman's voice, screams.

-------------------------------------------​

3:12am OP reports firing his gun


3:17am (approx) - Mr. Johnson (gunshots)
3:17am - Dr. Stipp (gunshots)

-------------------------------------------​

I can make changes if needs be....

So, according to the defense version, the shots would have been the first 'bangs' heard, approximately 3:00 to 3:04 am, and the bat would have been the second set of bangs, heard around 3:17?

So if OP shot RS at 3:00-3:04 am, what did he do in those precious 13-17 minutes, before calling for medical help ? Were those things more important than getting an ambulance to the home?

If we believe the ear witnesses, he screamed and cried and fussed for much of that time.

 

[molly333]

That's not what the evidence supports. 3:02 for Annette Stipp with a fast clock; 3:12 to shoot estimated by Oscar; 3:15 phone call by Dr. Stipp; 3:16 phone calls by two neighbours; 3:17 second bangs; 3:19 call to Stander; 3:20 call to netcare.

Those are the times we have to work with.

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

Everyone thinks their clocks are right and their time is right, but the only times we have nailed is the second set of 'gunshots' and the phone calls.

Realistically, how long do we think the doctor is going to sit around doing nothing after hearing gunshots and screams? He's trained to respond quickly to emergencies and he did. So we should just figure out how long it takes him to find the security number and call them, and add the 2 minutes he is on the phone before the next set of shots happens, to get the time between the 'shots.'

 

[james83]

Interesting comment by tweeter about the straight-arm shooting versus crooked-arm position




Pistorius says he doesn’t know how he fired, but he says his arm was bent. If it was bent (if not he’s lying, rilly) he has to fight a gun recoil stronger than straight-arm position:

- It’s far more difficult to fire.
- The recoil is even greater
- Takes longer time to aim

So, Steenkamp was screaming while he shot out her hip, Pistorius is re-aiming, and moving arm back to position, another recoil and aiming and moving, another recoil and aiming and moving. Shudder.

Don't forget he also had one hand on the wall behind him, :floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

 

[BritsKate]

I believe Annette Stipp awoke at 3:02am (unprovoked, ie. nothing woke her, she had a cold). You are correct that her clock was a few minutes fast. The shots however came a few minutes later if my memory serves me. (Nel would have a field day with that - I will check!)

Thanks for the correction. Even conceding a few minutes it still doesn't support the defense case in its entirety though.


Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

 

[benn25]

PS Defense atty's often ask their experts not to write a report so they don't have to give it to the prosecution.

BIB...you mean geologist:floorlaugh:

 

[beach]

Reeva not calling the police---that makes me believe she was hiding from OP and not phantom intruders. If she thought there was a home invasion, she would have rung security or the cops. Even if she were afraid of speaking loudly, she could have whispered the address.

But if she was hiding from OP, she might have been bluffing about calling the cops. She peobably would have thought twice, and not really wanted to get them involved. She would not have wanted the bad publicity that would have resulted. But she may have threatened OP with the call to police and it may have triggered his rage.

BBM

That is exactly what I believe happened. Remember all the loud arguing before the shots?

Oscar would've done anything if he feared she would call the police and it would result in him being exposed. I think he was enraged and was determined that was NOT going to happen.

 

[Really?]

snipped to save space

OP terrorized Reeva for a bit outside the door, screaming at her and banging here and there. She's screaming/calling for help. OP manages to break through a door panel, which causes Reeva's screams to intensify. Now he sees exactly where she is, and she sees the gun - blood curdling screams erupt. He fires, aiming at her the whole time, moving as she moves.

My thoughts exactly.

now.....what in the world made those scratchy marks on the door?

the ones the top red arrow go thru in that last pic posted of the door. I wonder.........

 

[Carol70]

About the first sounds:

• Mr. Baba said a guard reported gunshots shortly after three.
• Mrs. Stipp woke at 03:02 (but said her clock was 3-4 minutes fast) and heard shots shortly afterwards.
• Mrs. van der Merwe said she heard 4 shots at about three.

About Dr. Stipp:

• He waited for Baba to come to his house and pointed out OP's house to Baba.
• He drove to security to find out if it was safe before he went to to OP's house.

Mrs. Stipp said she was coming inside and looked at the clock when she heard the second set of sounds. This was about 03:17.

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/08/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-4/
http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/08/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-5-part-1/
http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/09/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-5-part-2/
http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/11/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-6/
http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/26/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-14/

If Mrs Stipp looked at her clock when she heard the second set of shots and it was 2-3 minutes fast, she then in fact heard the shots at roughly 3.14/15am.

 

[soozieqtips]

Yes your scenario sounds very likely, especially considering the dent in the bathtub. It does make sense that he would be kicking things and in an uncontrollable rage.

That makes a lot of sense. Also, it looks like he got frustrated by his inabliity to get her out of the bathroom (while alive I mean), and that's why he got so frustrated and got his gun.

I just wish he had been taught easy ways to control his anger - like, leave the situation. If he had just gone outside and hit something outside like a tree or something, just to catch his breath. This tragedy would have never happened. This is IN NO WAY an excuse for him, I just wish he had been taught this from an early age so that he would have learned to deal with his anger.

Of course, if his temper escalated b/c of fear that she would call the police and/or call someone else, I suppose it wouldn't really have done any good. For example, if he went outside and she ended up calling the police, his anger would be even greater when he got back. B/c the root cause of the problem is something that wouldn't go away - fear of any bad publicity. If she really had called the police, it would have triggered his anger anyway.

I have also thought about the reason you mentioned about the "I love you," but the only thing is didn't he open the card, along with the present, like a year later? Or did he open it that night?

He opened it on her birthday, but he opened it on the wrong day, because (like so many other details) he must have forgotten when her birthday was!

 

[weeeva]

Why not? If someone is willing to shoot and kill someone doesn't it make sense that they are also able and willing to mock them as well? Especially knowing that the cries for help are pointless.

MOO

Well if someone is in such an in insane rage, that they are so outraged it results in a horrific murder, then I think making mocking sounds during their frenzy kind of trivializes the depth of their outrage. It is possible, but I just can't see it.

 

[TrueDetective]

All this cricket bat discussion reminded me about the bashed up metal bath panel. I do not recall it being mentioned in Nel's cross of Oscar. What do you think? Was it an oversight?

Very much so.

Anything that could be important physical or circumstantial evidence that is not examined and not used to question witnesses is in my opinion not merely an oversight, but negligent.

Considering the fine detail and exhaustive nature of other areas, I cannot believe tat this (and bedroom door damage) have been almost completely ignored.

Briefly mentioned during photo walkthroughs yes, but IIRC there have been absolutely no follow ups which I find shocking and inexplicable. I'm sure there are logical reasons for this - there must be. But I really want to understand them as they remain huge red flags for me.

As Shane keeps telling us "this one runs deep"

I'd like to know how. And why.

 

[Really?]

Did not Mrs. Burger say that the male help help help sounded mocking in tone to her? If so, then it does explain why OP would yell out help before using either the cricket bat or the gun. Reeva was screaming for help while OP was mocking her.

unfortunately, this is exactly what sick twisted OP did. The murderer.