Trial Discussion Thread #28 - 14.04.17, Day 25

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IMO Almost all of the experts have given testimony way beyond the scope of their expertise. Part of that is the attorneys asking them their opinions about things that are not part of the expertise - both Roux and Nel have done it while cross examining witnesses, and they have both gotten experts to make observations and give opinions that are really the province of fact witnesses or lay witnesses. It is baffling and also intriguing to me.

What many of the "guilty" crowd are seeing in Dixon, I was seeing in Vermuelen - astounded that an "expert" in materials (i.e., a geologist and chemist) would be doing a demonstration of body position in such a non-scientific and haphazard way and giving tool mark opinions without being certified in tool mark examination. There was nothing exact about his process at all. Same with Van Staden and the whole business with taking crime scene photos while others were mucking about with the evidence.

Even Mangena trotted into territory that was beyond his field when he started giving opinions about pathology.

This must be something that is common in South Africa -- and obviously it is great fodder for the opposing counsel on cross examination.

But I read a legal article the other day that might shed some light on this phenomenon. The SA judicial process was described as part adversarial and part inquiry ...meaning that information is presented to inform the judge as much as possible. I think this is why there are not so many rules of evidence and pre-trial challenges to experts and such; no hearsay objections, etc. Since it's a bench trial and no jury, the judge can sift through the evidence and give it the proper weight without being prejudiced.

With that in mind, it makes more sense that a witness might give testimony or do demonstrations that are not precise or exactly replicative of the night in question. The sound test wasn't meant to demonstrate that those sounds were exactly what witnesses heard on that night - the purpose was simply to inform the judge that a cricket bat hitting the door is very loud and could be interpreted as a gunshot. That's it. And for that purpose, the defense accomplished its goal through Dixon.

The judge has now at least heard a demonstration that provided enough information for her to put the cricket bat sounds in context with the witness testimony.

BIB 1: This was obvious to me from the start. The absence of a jury allows a much freer modus operandi.

BIB 2: I don't see how this benefits the defence, as nobody is contesting that there were gunshots.
 
He saw a photograph of the actual socks and used his eyes as instruments to determine they were the same fibres/fibers.

I was trying to describe Mr Dixon to my partner yesterday and wondering why he was hired in the first place. My partner said "maybe they asked him if he was a sound expert" and Mr Dixon thought "yes, my theories are always sound - sound as a pound". (perhaps only the Brits will get that reference).

:floorlaugh:
 
Right, the reliability of Dixon has really got me riled up with regards to the exterior photographs (which is the part of his cross exam I'm up to).

The fact he used a shorter person than Pistorius in the photo and the fact he failed to measure the distance from which he took the photograph can be (barely) put down to methodological ineptitude, but his observation regarding how objects appear from different heights is absolutely contrary to reality. An expert could not possibly believe and state as fact in open court what he just stated.

It is a scientific certainty that due to parallax foreground objects move further relative to the view of the observer than their background counterparts. In this instance the window ledge and head/torso of the Pistorius stand in respectively.

If you go up, you will experience that the ledge moves down more swiftly than the head/ torso. If you go down, then the ledge will move up more quickly.

Anyone can perform this test with two objects, the one behind the other - just move your head up and down. I just practised with a coffee cup and a screwdriver. The defence 'expert' witness should try it with a slice of humble pie and his p45.

Nobody unaware or incapable of deducing the basic laws of parallax should be employed as an expert in an experiment where parallax is the single most important variable. It beggars belief.

I found that quite shocking too.
 
Just a reminder - Vermuelen has an undergraduate degree in Geology and a Masters in Chemistry. Dixon has a Masters in Geology

[video=youtube;iiKK3vA9XpQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiKK3vA9XpQ&feature=share&t=25m20s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiKK3vA9XpQ[/video]
 
BIB 1: This was obvious to me from the start. The absence of a jury allows a much freer modus operandi.

BIB 2: I don't see how this benefits the defence, as nobody is contesting that there were gunshots.

Nobody contests there were gunshots but without the demonstration it is hard to believe that hitting a door with a cricket bat could sound similar.
 
If the judge believes that the cricket bat noises and gunshots could be mistaken it puts the witness testimonies regarding the different noises in doubt.
There are some that were quite sure that all the noises they heard were gunshots.

e.g. Johan Stipp thought he heard 6 gunshots, and Annette Stipp at least 5 gunshots.
 
The American company's graphic artists are "reanimating" like mad as we speak!

where is the Taiwanese one? thats what I wanna know....lol...they did so well with tiger woods
 
Nobody contests there were gunshots but without the demonstration it is hard to believe that hitting a door with a cricket bat could sound similar.

Yes, but demonstrating that they sound similar doesn't resolve any dispute about which sounds were heard first. It doesn't make the defence's version more likely than the prosecution's, and vice versa.
 
If the judge believes that the cricket bat noises and gunshots could be mistaken it puts the witness testimonies regarding the different noises in doubt.
There are some that were quite sure that all the noises they heard were gunshots.

e.g. Johan Stipp thought he heard 6 gunshots, and Annette Stipp at least 5 gunshots.

how does that really change anything, though? They heard loud sounds. Who really thinks "gee.. that sounds like someone is terrorizing their girlfriend with a cricket bat" at 3am? Not sure when they may have learned that Oscar used a bat to scare his victim, but when relaying what they heard, I'm sure they assumed it was all the same.

So they sound alike. What does that really get you? I don't understand. They heard series of loud noises that sounded like gunshots and screams from a woman intermittently among them. That in itself, is damning to Oscar.
 
yeah, the soil comparisons really were make or break in this case. I bet magic eyes can denote their differences with his eyes, too.

Point is that everyone's laughing about the defense expert being a geologist, but that's what the state's expert was too. But was any of his testimony about geology? Nope.
 
If the judge believes that the cricket bat noises and gunshots could be mistaken it puts the witness testimonies regarding the different noises in doubt.
There are some that were quite sure that all the noises they heard were gunshots.

e.g. Johan Stipp thought he heard 6 gunshots, and Annette Stipp at least 5 gunshots.

That's understandable if it's been proved that they sound the same then, isn't it? Doesn't make the witnesses less credible.

As I said - no one is denying that there were gunshots, and as far as I'm aware the prosecution and defence are agreed on the number.
 
If the judge believes that the cricket bat noises and gunshots could be mistaken it puts the witness testimonies regarding the different noises in doubt.
There are some that were quite sure that all the noises they heard were gunshots.

e.g. Johan Stipp thought he heard 6 gunshots, and Annette Stipp at least 5 gunshots.

But both Stipps agree to hearing the first bangs around 3:00, whereupon both looked toward the sound of bangs/screams, either immediately [AS] or within moments [DrS], right into the lighted bathroom of OP. This was when OP claims he was backing slowly out of the pitch black bathroom, then slowly down the pitch black passage, then into the pitch black bedroom where he did a number of different things before returning to the bathroom, now wearing his legs, and finally unafraid enough to turn on the bathroom light.
 
If the judge believes that the cricket bat noises and gunshots could be mistaken it puts the witness testimonies regarding the different noises in doubt.
There are some that were quite sure that all the noises they heard were gunshots.

e.g. Johan Stipp thought he heard 6 gunshots, and Annette Stipp at least 5 gunshots.

Demonstrating that the bat and the gun sound very much the same simply reinforces what the witnesses heard.
 
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