Trial Discussion Thread #30

[TorisMom003]

The State's expert said it was arterial spurts, but he was not a doctor IIRC, he was the forensic blood spatter analyst.

Edit: Sorry, I'm talking only of the blood on the stairs and dripping down from the stairs. He did not say what the blood by the bed was.

He didn't say that the blood on the stairs and dripping down the stairs was from arterial spurts. He said that the blood on the couch under the landing area of the stairs was arterial spurts. The blood on the stairs, leading down them were drips from Reeva's hair and/or body (her wounds).

 

[crasshopper]

The State's expert said it was arterial spurts, but he was not a doctor IIRC, he was the forensic blood spatter analyst.

Edit: Sorry, I'm talking only of the blood on the stairs and dripping down from the stairs. He did not say what the blood by the bed was.

Thank you Minor! I will certainly defer to his expertise in the matter.

...where's Dexter when we need him

 

[minor4th]

He didn't say that the blood on the stairs and dripping down the stairs was from arterial spurts. He said that the blood on the couch under the landing area of the stairs was arterial spurts. The blood on the stairs, leading down them were drips from Reeva's hair and/or body (her wounds).

Right, that's what I was talking about the blood downstairs that was caused by the spurt while she was being carried on the stairs.

 

[Viper]

The State's expert said it was arterial spurts, but he was not a doctor IIRC, he was the forensic blood spatter analyst.

Edit: Sorry, I'm talking only of the blood on the stairs and dripping down from the stairs. He did not say what the blood by the bed was.

BIB. He said that the blood over the bed on the wall was arterial spatter. But as you are kind to note he is a blood investigator not a doctor and he did not have access to the autopsy report as he formulated his opinions.

 

[minor4th]

BIB. He said that the blood over the bed on the wall was arterial spatter. But as you are kind to note he is a blood investigator not a doctor and he did not have access to the autopsy report as he formulated his opinions.

I don't think he did say that. I think he just said it was consistent with Oscar's account

 

[TorisMom003]

Right, that's what I was talking about the blood downstairs that was caused by the spurt while she was being carried on the stairs.

The way it was worded it sounded as if the blood trail on the stairs was from the arterial spray instead of over the railing to the couch below.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Well to answer part of that, near the time of death your body releases a lot of insulin and other factors which completely dilate your capillary bed (which holds way more than your blood volume), makes the capillary bed "leaky" allowing more of the plasma out of the intravascular blood and the eventual actual seeping of blood cells into the extravascular space which contributes to "lividity."

So nearly dead she would have exsanguinated as much as someone with an intact brainstem or no head injury. Assuming, which I do, that her limbs were hit first, in the seconds before the head shot, the bodies response was to vasoconstrict arteries to stem blood loss, just a tidbit there.

Thanks . I will be googling some of your post to understand it as much as possible
Is this why the blood outside the toilet was much paler than the blood inside ?
Or is it just because there was a larger quantity inside the toilet area ?

 

[Viper]

I don't think he did say that. I think he just said it was consistent with Oscar's account

He did say that. We can track down that part of the transcript later. I recall having a debate about this, the blood shooting all the way from the hallway / bedroom area over to the wall, it was just so fantastic! But later Nel asked OP whether he carried Reeva to the bedside before taking her downstairs and that was more plausible. But equally plausible is that OP initially carried her there and then turned quickly causing blood to cast off of Reeva's head on to the wall.

 

[TorisMom003]

OP sure does seem to have a certain "type" that he is attracted to. All of the girlfriends that I know about are all blonde and look as if they could possibly be related.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...icky-Miles-Samantha-Taylor-Russian-model.html

 

[katydid23]

Mostly I am Ok with the case being decided on the evidence. In my mind the evidence this far is not indicative of a guilty of PM. I'm from a family of gun owners where there is no such thing as an unloaded gun, I am overly cautious as I would like all gun owners to be. Yes I know that is not the reality of the world.


That said I don't know if CH is proven at this point given the extenuating circumstance of Oscars disability and the ever present pervasive fear that seems to be prevalent in SA due to the frequency of home invasions. That is for the judge to decide. DO I think objectively that Oscar is guilty of CH yes. But subjectively I am on the fence. I have a huge problem with him discharging a firearm when he did not know where Reeva was.

If there really was an intruder and Oscar had killed him, I would find him not guilty, period, deadly defense and adios to the intruder. The problem for me is that I am not convinced that Oscar did not 100% believe he was defending himself and Reeva.

BBM

I have a huge problem with that as well. As a matter of fact, I cannot get past it long enough to find him 'innocent' of all charges. A 'reasonable' person would not shoot into a small toilet, without first verifying the whereabouts of their room mate. End of story, for me anyway.

And I cannot accept the 'extreme fear' excuse because he did not show any behavior that supports that excuse. He did not know for months if his alarm worked, never oushed the panic button, nor called security. He did not clear the ladders from the yard, fix the broken downstairs window, and even went to sleep with the sliding doors open that night. NONE of that screams extreme fear, imo.

 

[DebinGA]

Did OP explain how Reeva's blood came to be on the duvet and the floor under it, especially after Nel showed him the initial pics of the scene?

 

[Rumpole]

I wonder if Nel will present a detailed outine of the State's version of events?

He did not do so prior to resting the State's case, in fact we only got his vague outline of what the State's version is in a brief paragraph as Nel closed his cross examination of OP.
It seems to me me that if Nel gives details at all it will be during his closing Statement, and the Defence will not have any (much) opportunity to respond. That to me seems unfair on the Defence, but apparently that is the way things are done.

I do wonder how well the State version would stand up to the sort of scrutiny and cross examination that "OP's Version" has received. How well could the State explain every movement from the time of the alleged "Last Supper" and argument through to the arrival of Stander(s) on the scene. I would, for instance love to hear minute by minute details according to the State version, from the time of the shots (after 3:17) to the time of Stander arriving (3:22). Those 5 minutes at least should be tested, I think.

ETA
I would like to think that the State has to do FAR more than raise some doubts about a few details of OP's version. They have to present and PROVE a version of their own,,, Beyond Reasonable Doubt.

 

[jilly]

An interesting article about Mi'lady. Some of her past verdicts and sentences show me that OP is definitely in for at least some prison time.

http://www.mediaclubsouthafrica.com/democracy/3735-judge-thokozile-masipa-reserved-and-astute

MOO

On the last case, in your link, M'Lady says:


"According to Masipa, Maroga’s story was contradictory, unreliable and “demonstrably lacking in credence” and she concluded that his version of events was a fabrication."

Sounds like she could say the same thing when passing down her Judgment on Oscar!

 

[crasshopper]

Unrelated but a few weeks ago, while out at Tapas with my family, my 83 yo, tall, still relatively trim mother had a "vasovagal" response to eating to much. Interestingly, this is a rare but well cited cause. A Vasovagal response is one where all the vessels are triggered to dilate and your blood pressure and flow every, including to the brain, markedly diminishes.

She collapsed and lost consciousness at the table. Her teeth were clenched and three of her physician daughters were unable to detect a peripheral pulse and only a very faint carotid pulse. She was making no respiratory excursions (moving of the chest) but a faint fog was detected holding a mirror to her nose. We had, of course called 911, immediately. My youngest sister was crying, calling an out of town sister screaming "Mommy's Dead."

Anyway, 3-5 minutes later, she resumed consciousness...pulse strong, breathing normally and just weak and diaphoretic from the episode.

After a long work up, there is nothing wrong with her, she has the heart and vessels of a 50 yo. but she really seemed acutely dead...but in reality her heart was still beating away.

OP, with his layperson's knowledge, reports Reeva still had signs of life when he got to her and even though he may have been unaware, unless she was injured bleed before she went to the bathroom, her heart had to have still been beating on the stairs.

As for post mortem ocular changes, they are far less conclusive when assessing time of death and are subject to some variables.Apologies for the long post...

 

[TorisMom003]

Did OP explain how Reeva's blood came to be on the duvet and the floor under it, especially after Nel showed him the initial pics of the scene?

Not that I recall.

 

[DebinGA]

OP sure does seem to have a certain "type" that he is attracted to. All of the girlfriends that I know about are all blonde and look as if they could possibly be related.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...icky-Miles-Samantha-Taylor-Russian-model.html

Alfred Hitchcock shared the same fascination with blondes, but all his lived to the end of the movie. OP killed Reeva, but could have killed her earlier in a high-speed car wreck. Ditto Sam Taylor in the shot-through-sunroof incident.

 

[weeeva]

She's a paramedic .. Leah Skye Malan http://www.citypress.co.za/news/oscar-finds-new-love/ I've got no problem with people whose partners die in tragic circumstances and they find love and companionship again fairly soon after, but not when the person is on bail awaiting a trial for murdering their previous girlfriend .. I find it incredibly odd that someone would even entertain having another girlfriend in those circumstances, even if just out of respect for Reeva .. in fact I think it's pretty sick.

This was brought up in the Dateline show. According to that there is no reason to believe OP has a girlfriend, apparently he has been lying low at his uncles house. Whether that is true or not I don't know, you can't believe everything you see/hear in the media.

 

[TorisMom003]

On the last case, in your link, M'Lady says:


"According to Masipa, Maroga’s story was contradictory, unreliable and “demonstrably lacking in credence” and she concluded that his version of events was a fabrication."

Sounds like she could say the same thing when passing down her Judgment on Oscar!

Caught that did you? :blushing:

Yes I noticed that as well and the first thing I thought of was OP and his lies on the stand, the changing of his version, and how Mi'lady was going to take that.

 

[Nausicaa]

...Reeva had two holes in her head, a severed artery in her right arm with the humerus completely fractured and just a small amount of tissue remaing to keep that arm connected to her body, a gunshot wound to her hip that fractured her hip and pelvis, right? And yet there was just a tiny pool of blood left near her right hip on the floor. Argue all you like that she was alive but her body refused to bleed out from all of those gunshot wounds, but that is just not realistic. As I said, I think I will go with what the professional says on this issue, Reeva died within seconds.

...

Viper, have I correctly understood that in your belief Reeva's heart stopped beating almost instantaneously when she received the head wound and that for this reason massive bleeding such as we see in your Bangkok link did not take place at all ?
And hence that the bulk of Reeva's blood remained inside Reeva, thus explaining why there are no big pools of blood found anywhere ?
If I have correctly understood this, surely this is easily verified at post mortem - and if so, was it in fact established by Dr Saayman ?

I ask these questions to lead up to three others :

1.If it is an established fact that Reeva's heart ceased to beat almost instantaneously so that most of her blood remained within her body, is not the presence of any arterial blood spurt outside the W.C.entirely incompatible with OP's account of the interval between the shots and his reaching Reeva's body ?
2. If it is an established fact that Reeva's heart ceased to beat almost instantaneously so that most of her blood remained within her body, is not the presence of any arterial blood spurt outside the W.C. quite simply impossible if Reeva in fact died inside the W.C. ?
3. It seems to me that the answer to Question 1 can only be Yes. If the answer to Question 2 is also Yes, are we not faced with the choice of (a) elaborating a highly implausible theory that Reeva was not killed in the W.C. at all, or (b) reviewing the premises that lead to such a counter-intuitive scenario ?

 

[TorisMom003]

This was brought up in the Dateline show. According to that there is no reason to believe OP has a girlfriend, apparently he has been lying low at his uncles house. Whether that is true or not I don't know, you can't believe everything you see/hear in the media.

Can't believe everything that comes out of OP's mouth either. He hasn't just been lying low at Uncle Arnold's house though this entire time he has been out on bail.

http://www.demotix.com/video/2213266/paralympian-oscar-pistorius-returns-training