Trial Discussion Thread #30

[TrueDetective]

I wonder if Nel will present a detailed outine of the State's version of events?

He did not do so prior to resting the State's case, in fact we only got his vague outline of what the State's version is in a brief paragraph as Nel closed his cross examination of OP.
It seems to me me that if Nel gives details at all it will be during his closing Statement, and the Defence will not have any (much) opportunity to respond. That to me seems unfair on the Defence, but apparently that is the way things are done.

I do wonder how well the State version would stand up to the sort of scrutiny and cross examination that "OP's Version" has received. How well could the State explain every movement from the time of the alleged "Last Supper" and argument through to the arrival of Stander(s) on the scene. I would, for instance love to hear minute by minute details according to the State version, from the time of the shots (after 3:17) to the time of Stander arriving (3:22). Those 5 minutes at least should be tested, I think.

ETA
I would like to think that the State has to do FAR more than raise some doubts about a few details of OP's version. They have to present and PROVE a version of their own,,, Beyond Reasonable Doubt.

<modsnip>

The state have to submit their entire case in advance which the defence can work from. Rather important wouldn't you agree?
The state then do not have anything from the defence to be able to counter in good time.
It is an extremely imbalanced system in huge favour to a defence. But clearly you do not get this or haven't made the effort to find out.

So with the above in mind, the very least the state should get is the opportunity to respond in closing to the defence's case.

<modsnip>

 

[Viper]

Viper, have I correctly understood that in your belief Reeva's heart stopped beating almost instantaneously when she received the head wound and that for this reason massive bleeding such as we see in your Bangkok link did not take place at all ?
And hence that the bulk of Reeva's blood remained inside Reeva, thus explaining why there are no big pools of blood found anywhere ?
If I have correctly understood this, surely this is easily verified at post mortem - and if so, was it in fact established by Dr Saayman ?

I ask these questions to lead up to three others :

1.If it is an established fact that Reeva's heart ceased to beat almost instantaneously so that most of her blood remained within her body, is not the presence of any arterial blood spurt outside the W.C.entirely incompatible with OP's account of the interval between the shots and his reaching Reeva's body ?
2. If it is an established fact that Reeva's heart ceased to beat almost instantaneously so that most of her blood remained within her body, is not the presence of any arterial blood spurt outside the W.C. quite simply impossible if Reeva in fact died inside the W.C. ?
3. It seems to me that the answer to Question 1 can only be Yes. If the answer to Question 2 is also Yes, are we not faced with the choice of (a) elaborating a highly implausible theory that Reeva was not killed in the W.C. at all, or (b) reviewing the premises that lead to such a counter-intuitive scenario ?

Thank you!

Here is where I am coming from. I believe in the expertise of Professor Saymaan, so I trust in his opinion that Reeva died with 2-3 last breaths after receiving the bullet to her head. I also look to his noting that there was a severe fracture at Reeva's base of skull; there are so many vital structures there that a bullet or bone fragments causing a severe fracture would highly likely cause instantaneous death. The doctor also noted that Reeva had no blood in her airways at all; if her heart had continued to beat and she continued to breath and bleed there would have been blood in her airways.

And yes, I do believe that if Reeva lived for even 20 seconds after receiving that gunshot to her head the WC would be covered in blood. I don't even want to think about how much blood would be in that house if she had lived the 6 minutes or more that some are suggesting. I realize the body can do things to stem bleeding on its own, but her injuries were so massive there is just no way that I can believe that she was alive for more than 3-4 seconds.

Others dispute Dr. Saymaan's opinion because the blood spatter analyst says he saw Arterial Spurting; but he is wrong IMO. He did not have access to Dr. Saymaan's autopsy report when he formulated his opinions about what the blood patterns meant. Also, for him to be right Reeva's heart would have to kick on and kick off at distant locations along the route to downstairs.

That's pretty much it really.

 

[Val1]

Perhaps he ought to spend his time behind the bars reading up. Reading every DIY publication he's able to get his hands on. You know, like how to replace panes of glass, how to install, repair, enable and check alarm systems. How to install burglar bars. If he gets really good at those things, he could possibly make a living by getting odd jobs around the neighborhood.

I mean, let's face it, he's not going to make any money running, nor is gonna be able to shoot off at the range anymore, he's gotta do something...he can put his paranoia to good use.

Course, that's only if he doesn't die whilst in the big house.

I recall reading/hearing something where he professed an interest in politics. Not sure about SA rules regarding that... I guess it would depend on whether he beats the murder charge as to whether he would be allowed to run for office.

 

[TorisMom003]

I recall reading/hearing something where he professed an interest in politics. Not sure about SA rules regarding that... I guess it would depend on whether he beats the murder charge as to whether he would be allowed to run for office.

Heaven help the people of South Africa if that ever happened.

 

[Interested Bystander]

From an article in Sports Illustrated:

"Oscar Pistorius has been spending time with people who were close to the girlfriend he shot and killed on Valentine's Day, the Olympian's family said Thursday in an indication that Pistorius is becoming more active while awaiting trial on a murder charge.

The family of Pistorius has stated that the runner was traumatized and in mourning over what he said was the mistaken shooting of girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp, but relatives and associates have increasingly signaled that Pistorius is emerging from what a spokeswoman described as isolation.

"Over the past few weeks, Oscar has found comfort in spending time and sharing memories with many of those whom she loved, in surroundings where shared memories were created," the family said in a statement Thursday."


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/more/news/20130411/oscar-pistorius-bail.ap/

I'm wondering who those friends of Reeva's are. Perhaps more like OP's friends that sortof knew Reeva but still support him. Because I can't see many, if any, of Reeva's true friends (like Gina) spending time with him.

MOO

This article was written/published a day less than two months after he killed Reeva. So if he had been socialising for a few weeks at that time, he really didn't spend much time grieving IMO - a couple of weeks maybe! Says a great deal about the man.

 

[Val1]

Seriously?

:scared:

To tell the truth, I hadn't really either(may have heard it on the news but didn't pay attention at the time) until I stopped in to check what was going on with JA's sentencing.

 

[BritsKate]

Because he was in a blind panic and not thinking like someone who is not in a blind panic perhaps?

Do you understand though that it may be difficult for some (okay, me) to understand such a blind panic though? He didn't call security, he didn't use a panic button, he didn't wait for Reeva to respond or at least get a visual, he didn't fire a warning shot or wait for an intruder to be able to get out before he started firing - and that's where SA law draws the line at putative self-defence.

I'm sure we've all had heart-stopping moments of fear in our lives - when we've been faced with a similar scenario or worse and few of us, if any, reacted as he did. We base our opinions, often, off our own experiences. My then 7 year old daughter showed more presence of mind in calling 911 during the 'blind panic' of my mother dying. He showed more presence of mind when he thought there was an intruder in the past...what made that night any different than those he spent with Sam and a washing machine?

And I get that people act differently...but his own history makes it difficult to overlook he has a history of different responces to panic, fear, or apprehension. None of them ended with him firing his gun four times, much less killing someone.

MOO

 

[TorisMom003]

To tell the truth, I hadn't really either(may have heard it on the news but didn't pay attention at the time) until I stopped in to check what was going on with JA's sentencing.

Same here. I didn't know who either of them were.

 

[Rumpole]

<modsnip>

The state have to submit their entire case in advance which the defence can work from. Rather important wouldn't you agree?
The state then do not have anything from the defence to be able to counter in good time.
It is an extremely imbalanced system in huge favour to a defence. But clearly you do not get this or haven't made the effort to find out.

So with the above in mind, the very least the state should get is the opportunity to respond in closing to the defence's case. Think about it....

<modsnip>

<modsnip>

The State clearly have not, (and never do) presented their "entire case" before any trial. As I stated, they have NOT even now told anybody what exactly their detailed version of events on the night is.

A civilized Judicial system IS weighted towards the defendant.. intentionally so, as I have noted many times. We, as a society, decided that it is so abhorrent to convict an innocent man, that we have weighted the "Pay off matrix" of Judicial decisions in favor of letting guilty defendants go free rather than (to lessen at least) the risk of convicting an innocent man. That is what civilized society decided, and it is what has evolved into the common Judicial process in many countries.
It is considered MUCH better than "Mob Justice" where people react to the plight of victims and simply convict and punish whoever the Mob hit upon as the guilty person.

In this case specifically, I do think the burden should be on the State to at least present a detailed version of events, and to prove that it happened that way. It seems that in SA they do not have to do that. So be it. I think that Nel has chosen to take advantage of that fact and has intentionally avoided stating his version in detail. That speaks volumes in itself. The Judge may well take note of that too.

 

[weeeva]

Schizophrenia often has an onset in the late teen years or early adulthood, so by extension someone could have been a child or teen celebrity.


according to wikipedia the list includes
Syd Barret of Pink Floyd, Darryl Hammond of SNL and Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys....who knew?!

I knew about Syd Barrett. He didn't last long in the band once the illness took hold. I had forgot about Brian Wilson. It's amazing that he is still going strong despite the disease.
I always think it is one of the worst diseases there is.

 

[minor4th]

The way it was worded it sounded as if the blood trail on the stairs was from the arterial spray instead of over the railing to the couch below.

I worded it imprecisely but what you've said is correct.

 

[minor4th]

Did OP explain how Reeva's blood came to be on the duvet and the floor under it, especially after Nel showed him the initial pics of the scene?

He said it was from when he was running around in a panic and getting his phone from the bedside table. He said the duvet was on the bed and insists the pic Nel showed him was not an accurate depiction of where things were immediately after the shooting

 

[JuneBug67]

BBM - I don't see why not. He got the call sequence wrong, which was obviously a mistake and something he wouldn't deliberately lie about because the sequence would be proved by phone records. To invent a conversation that didn't take place "Everything's fine" would require Baba to be calculating and have some sort of grudge against OP. If that were the case, and Baba was intentionally malicious, I'm sure OP would have told his DT that Baba had a grudge against him so his testimony couldn't be counted. So I think the actual conversation happened and he just got the call sequence wrong.

It's an odd thing to misremember. I've never known quite what to make of that. I also suspect that Baba misremembered Oscar's exact words. Oscar's claim and Baba's initial statement were more along the lines of "I'm fine" rather than "Everything is fine."

 

[minor4th]

This still shocks me, what an error of judgement. (March 28 2013)

Oscar Pistorius has had his passport returned to him after lawyers successfully argued he should be allowed to travel abroad to compete despite being charged with the premeditated murder of his girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp.

Turns out it wasn't an error in judgment though, because he didn't flee or make any attempt to avoid prosecution.

 

[minor4th]

To tell the truth, I hadn't really either(may have heard it on the news but didn't pay attention at the time) until I stopped in to check what was going on with JA's sentencing.

I hadn't either. I had heard of "The Blade Runner" but did not know his name was Oscar Pistorius.

 

[jay-jay]

This was brought up in the Dateline show. According to that there is no reason to believe OP has a girlfriend, apparently he has been lying low at his uncles house. Whether that is true or not I don't know, you can't believe everything you see/hear in the media.

So he didn't have a vacation in Mozambique last December then?

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/oscar-s-uncle-wants-to-take-him-to-moz-1.1484657

.. also, just to post a couple of quotes from that article, which I find truly astonishing (well, no I don't find them astonishing, to be honest) ..

Pretoria - Oscar Pistorius wants a court to allow him to drink alcohol if he wants and maybe even visit the sunny shores of Mozambique before his trial starts.

The Olympic and Paralympic star is charged with his girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp’s murder.

Less than a month after he paid R1 million bail money and was allowed to go home, Pistorius now wants more freedom.

Since his release Oscar, 26, has stayed behind closed doors at his uncle Arnold Pistorius’ home in Pretoria.

He had to hand over all his firearms and agree to not leave the country or drink any alcohol.

Speaking through his personal assistant, Arnold said being stuck at home is one of the first bail conditions Oscar wants changed.

Arnold says banning Oscar from having alcohol is not fair.

“It’s not relevant because he doesn’t drink alcohol at all,” Arnold said.

Pistorius’ lawyers have also used the notice to appeal the bail conditions to gain the upper hand before his murder trial starts.

They have pointed out that it’s unreasonable for Oscar to not be allowed to talk to his neighbours at the Silverwoods Country Estate.

Many of his neighbours will be called to testify about the night Reeva, 29, died.

Oscar also feels reporting to the Brooklyn Police Station twice a week is an unreasonable bail condition

Amazing. Who does he think he is?

 

[BritsKate]

He said it was from when he was running around in a panic and getting his phone from the bedside table. He said the duvet was on the bed and insists the pic Nel showed him was not an accurate depiction of where things were immediately after the shooting

Off Topic from the Quoted Post, Apologies...

Quick question for you, if and when you can spare a moment? How much do you think of what we're witnessing in SA is purely because of a magistrate only system - such as lack of opening statements (until Judge Masipa questioned Nel), the weaving of a 'version' or possibly motive, etc? I realise you're new to SA law too but it seems to me a lot that's being 'missed' is usually for the benefit of a jury? So many people were floored that Nel didn't have opening remarks ready but really there seems to be little reason for it. Motive too, I would argue, is usually desired by a jury, even when unnecessary to determine guilt, where the judge will be basing her decision primarily on the letter of the law.

Just curious...

 

[TrueDetective]

So he didn't have a vacation in Mozambique last December then?

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/oscar-s-uncle-wants-to-take-him-to-moz-1.1484657

.. also, just to post a couple of quotes from that article, which I find truly astonishing (well, no I don't find them astonishing, to be honest) ..

Amazing. Who does he think he is?

Beggars belief.
The gun thing.. Are we really supposed to believe that there aren't firearms at uncle arnie's?
Doesn't drink? He himself admitted that he drinks to excess in the off season.

 

[soozieqtips]

It's an odd thing to misremember. I've never known quite what to make of that. I also suspect that Baba misremembered Oscar's exact words. Oscar's claim and Baba's initial statement were more along the lines of "I'm fine" rather than "Everything is fine."

BBM - Except that on the stand, OP said he didn't even remember speaking to Baba. Was it Roux that tried to persuade Baba that OP had said "I'm fine" and not "Everything's fine"? If OP now claims he can't remember speaking to Baba, then he can't know what he didn't say! And where did Roux pluck those words from in the first place? I'd go with Baba on this one, as he came across as sincere and credible. It was pointed out by CapeTownCrim that Baba wasn't giving evidence in his own language, and there could have been interpreting issues. But what was clear was that Baba heard OP say "Everything's fine".

 

[soozieqtips]

So he didn't have a vacation in Mozambique last December then?

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/oscar-s-uncle-wants-to-take-him-to-moz-1.1484657

.. also, just to post a couple of quotes from that article, which I find truly astonishing (well, no I don't find them astonishing, to be honest) ..

Amazing. Who does he think he is?

It was funny that he said he'd accept his bail conditions, and then in the blink of an eye he wanted practically everything overturned because it wasn't 'fair'. Poor him! :violin: